He who endures to the end will be saved!

[guanophore]

I read the passage on Ephesian 2 and it is very good at defining what the church is, which is the collection of the saints and citizens that make up the household of God, which is the church I belong to. I believe it is worth noting that the text reads “having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets” with the word “built” having to do with building onto that which exists, which of course is Jesus, which is the foundation of the church I belong to. Being built or laid upon by the prophets and ALL of the apostles contradicts the Matthew 16 understanding as Peter being the foundation. If this were true, then should we not then toss out a large portion of Scripture because of the direct contradiction?

I am not seeing any contradiction. Can you help me?

What you are saying would only make sense if we separated Peter from the rest of the Foundation, and set him apart by himself. Is this what you think happened?

 

[guanophore]

Jesus Christ atoned not only for Adam’s sin but for the sins of all his children, past, present, and future.

This is true, and it is also true that not all will avail themselves of the benefits of this great sacrifice.

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Romans 6:17-18
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

He assumes that all of them are now obedient to God’s commandments and that they are no longer slaves to sin. But, in order to make sure that they actually do inherit eternal life when they die, he commands them to “now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.” Romans 6:19

Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin (through Baptism), and having become slaves of God (slaves of righteousness), you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-23
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you evildoers!

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If we sin, then we are no longer “in” Christ Jesus. If we sin mortal sins (sins which cause death of spiritual life in the soul), then He no longer abides in us and so we no longer abide in Him. If we no longer abide in Him at the end of our lives because we sinned and did not repent, then we are gathered and thrown into the fire.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

1 John 3:24
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If we do not keep His commandments, then we defile our temples/souls with sins and the Holy Spirit will destroy us if we do not repent before our deaths.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself.

We should not deceive ourselves by thinking that we can break God’s commandments and still inherit eternal life. Christ is the “author and finisher of our faith in Him” of only those who obey Him to the end of their lives Hebrews 12:1-3, Hebrews 5:9.

Matthew 13:40-42
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
41The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

Matthew 24:12-13
Because of the increase of wickedness,** the love of most will grow cold**, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.

 

[guanophore]

PLease do not critize me one more time I will report you thank you and God Bless.

You are encouraged to report posts that are offensive, Tweety.

Any post of yours that claims your are Catholic I can assure you will be subject to a critical response.

Critique of the faith is one of the purposes of the site. We are here to compare and contrast beliefs.

Your beliefs are not Catholic, as compared to your claims, which state you are. This presents an apparent contradiction.

Exactly what do you see by my name?

I was responding to what was IN the post, claiming you are Catholic.

UNDER your name I see a bunch of questions about Ignatius and the use of the word Catholic by the only Christians for the first 1054 years that you did not answer.

 

[guanophore]

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, **but ye have obeyed from the heart **that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Indeed, if we are obedient to that which was delivered to us, we will inherit the gift of eternal life.

2Ti 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Do you really think a person can get to heaven if Christ denies him?

And **this is the Father’s will **which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one can snatch us, but we can sure jump out!

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Where you have departed from the Apostolic Teaching is that the commission of a moral sin separates us from that fire, and grieves the HS, pushing Him away from us. That is why a person in mortal sin is unable to endure. Unless they are able to reconcile with God, they fail to gain their heavenly inheritance…

When I came to Christ, God adopted me as one of His children. The adoption papers were signed by the precious blood of the Lamb. I do not float in and out of His family through my sin no more than one of my own children who have rebelled against my rules. In my own experiences with my children when they disobey I get more fierce in bringing them back into obedience. The deeper the rebellion the harder the fight for them to return. When we sin against our Father, He still continues to see us through the perfect sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ and we remain as one of His children. Whom God loves He chastises, and with that He has the armory of His choosing to bring his children back into the fold, including the pain of physical death.

 

[SHW]

"Truly, truly, I say to you,*** he who hears My word, and believes Him*** who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24

We must do more than merely “hear” His Word. We must also “believe” His Word. If we truly “believe” what He says, then we will “obey” what He says to do.

James 1:21-22
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

Hebrews 3:11-18
As I swore in my wrath, `They shall never enter my rest.’" 12 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today, " that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16 Who were they that heard and yet were rebellious? Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 **And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? **

If a person believes that he will be saved without obeying God’s commandments, then he is deceiving himself. “Believe” means “to do the Word” which means to obey the gospel of Jesus. If we do not obey the gospel of Jesus, then we are not saved.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The answer:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:24

We are saved if we imitate His life. We imitate His life when we obey God’s commandments and do His Father’s Will just as He did 1 Corinthians 11:1 while He was on earth. We are saved much more by His life when we imitate His obedience. We must not continue to imitate Adam’s disobedience which alienated us from God. Christ is the new Adam 1 Corinthians 15:45 and He shows us the way to eternal life if we imitate His life until we die.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 8:2

He is contrasting the “law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” which is also called the New Covenant Royal Law of Love Luke 10:27 to the Old Covenant Law of Moses.

James 2:8-9
If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the (royal) law as transgressors.

If we sin against (transgress against) the Royal Law Luke 10:27 and also do not repent before death, then we will not inherit eternal life.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 9:11

IF INDEED THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU is conditional. The Spirit of God cannot dwell in a temple defiled by sin 1 Corinthians 3:16-18.
**
IF** CHRIST IS IN YOU is conditional. He abides in us (is in us/dwells in us) only if we obey His commandments John 15:10.

to be continued…

 

[graceandglory]

People are not reborn because of a water baptism. Christian water baptism was not in existence when Jesus had his conversation with nicedemus.

Actually water baptism has jewish roots.
jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=222&letter=B&search=baptism

 

[SHW]

This is the God that never forsakes me and protects me and has given me eternal life and no one, including myself, is able to take me from my Fathers hand. All that the Father has give to the Son, He loses none and raises them on the last day. This is my God, my Lord and my Savior. I am so thankful to my Father who is in Heaven and for the Holy Spirit who teaches me about my Father ways and about the Son and for the Son who was willing to take my sin and nail it to the cross so when the Father sees me, He sees Jesus in me…praise God. Amen

**
God places in His hand ONLY those whom He has also predestined.** None of us can be absolutely sure if we are predestined until we die and are judged.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:16-17
as also in all his (Paul’s) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

How can you read this, and not get the sense that it is possible to fall?

Fall to what? Read back…

“ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ”
“nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.”

He saying that if you want to enjoy the assurances of your election, do these things, else you will be ineffective and unproductive, near sighted and blind, and forgetting you were cleased from your past sin - (no assurance). So do them and your rewards in Heaven will be great!!!

 

[Rocket_Man]

**
God places in His hand ONLY those whom He has also predestined.** None of us can be absolutely sure if we are predestined until we die and are judged.

Actually we can, because we stand simply and solely on the merits of Jesus Christ and His blood that was shed on the cross. This is His promise to us and also the Father’s will. This covenant has been sealed by the blood of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He is faithful and will uphold His promises.

And knowing that we have this confidence where the Holy Son of the God is sitting at the right hand of Father pleading our case, our hope is not looking forward to what we might obtain through our works, but looking backwards to our hope in what Christ Jesus has already obtained for us. And through this same hope we are ever greatful and obedient onto death.

“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

 

[Carlan]

Can you please post a Catholic source for this? This statement is not consistent with Catholic teaching, and it sounds like it came from the writings of someone who does not understand the docrtrines of the faith.

It is actually a very slanderous statement.

Yes it is Guan, it almost caused me to jump off my bike back there when I first read it, I do take your advice on prayer tho’ and that helps greatly.

Don’t think you can expect a response on that one though. Happy New year to all! Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

Yes it is Guan, it almost caused me to jump off my bike back there when I first read it, I do take your advice on prayer tho’ and that helps greatly.

Don’t think you can expect a response on that one though. Happy New year to all! Carlan

We been discussing this issue since this thread started and it’s exactly what the Catholic posters have been presenting.

You float in and out of salvation based on your mortal sin. Justification is a process rather than an event. You are only justified if you cooperate until death. It’s all merit driven.

 

[MacDaddy]

Then what was Jesus doing just a few verses later in John 3:22?
MY Bible says that he and the Apostles were baptizing people.

Who were those people? The Jews and they, the Apostles, were baptizing, not Jesus. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit according to my Bible and to some with He will or has Baptized with fire. Christian baptism by water was not established until the birth of the church on the day of Pentecost and the first 3000 were Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. What you see is prophecy being fulfilled that John must decrease and He must increase; this is a transition from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant.

John 4:1-3
1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were), 3 He left Judea and went away again into Galilee.

 

[MacDaddy]

Jesus Christ atoned not only for Adam’s sin but for the sins of all his children, past, present, and future.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Isn’t the “sin nature” inherited by Adam the reason why everyone actually dies. Some to eternity with God and some to eternity separated from God? It seems to me that is any baptism removed original sin, then no one could die between the time they were baptized and the time they made the next conscience sin. therefore if a baby is washed from original sin by water baptism or water sprinkling, then they could not die until they not only reached the age of accountability, but then sinned. Do you follow? There is a fallacy in the theology compared to the reality. This just came to me as I was thinking about original sin and the belief that water baptism removes it.

 

[MacDaddy]

Does your obedience and God’s judging them include all of these? This is a real question.

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

“Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two”

“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.”

“And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.”

“Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.”

“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”

LOL……

 

[tweetymom]

Yes, Tweety, some of your beliefs and attitudes are quite anti-Catholic. Sola Scriptura being one of the main ones. Rejection of the authority appointed by Christ as another. I am sure you are not the only person in the pew at your parish with these anti-Catholic attitudes. The idea that you can call yourself a Catholic and reject the doctrines of the Church is, in itself, anti-Catholic.

Your sarcasm is leaking again, Tweety.

I know you don’t believe it is right to give Glory to any but God alone.

Yes you do. YOu have measured elvis against your standards of love, kindness, gentleness, and humility and found him wanting.

Is that what you think people are who accept all the Teachings of the Church?

Is that why you are afraid to study the history of your faith?

Most victims of childhood abuse have been brainwashed, and it is only natural for them to distrust others, and have difficulty accepting ideas that may prove to be harmful. Children are naturally trusting, and when that trust is abused and misused, they have trouble learning to trust again. God can heal that, though.

From your mouth, to God’s ear!

Have you ever considered that the feedback you are getting here on CAF is Jesus trying to lead you closer to Himself?

This may go over in your parish, but it certainly is not the case here. In fact, you have advocated most anti-Catholic posts and ideas that are made here by Protestants. You validate your own and their rebellion against the Apsotolic faith. You go against the Teachings of the Church you claim to belong to. None of these actions show the love of Christ.

Once again thank you for your kind remarks. It makes my heart jump for joy when I read them, cause I know I am getting blessed by God.

 

[tweetymom]

You are encouraged to report posts that are offensive, Tweety.

Any post of yours that claims your are Catholic I can assure you will be subject to a critical response.

Critique of the faith is one of the purposes of the site. We are here to compare and contrast beliefs.

Your beliefs are not Catholic, as compared to your claims, which state you are. This presents an apparent contradiction.

I was responding to what was IN the post, claiming you are Catholic.

UNDER your name I see a bunch of questions about Ignatius and the use of the word Catholic by the only Christians for the first 1054 years that you did not answer.

I said Ignatius was just a man like you not God.

 

[tweetymom]

You are encouraged to report posts that are offensive, Tweety.

Any post of yours that claims your are Catholic I can assure you will be subject to a critical response.

Critique of the faith is one of the purposes of the site. We are here to compare and contrast beliefs.

Your beliefs are not Catholic, as compared to your claims, which state you are. This presents an apparent contradiction.

I was responding to what was IN the post, claiming you are Catholic.

UNDER your name I see a bunch of questions about Ignatius and the use of the word Catholic by the only Christians for the first 1054 years that you did not answer.

Maybe you need to go read the forum rules about personal attacks, I think that you have purly broken this rule. Debate is one thing but oersnal attacks are another

 

[MacDaddy]

If you still commit sin, then you have not completely denied self. You denied self on one day for sure, the day you came to the Lord, but He requires that we deny self every single day of our lives if we desire to enter into eternal life. If we do not deny ourselves daily, then we are not worthy of eternal life with the Person who paid the terrible price to reconcile us to God.

Luke 9:23
Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

When we sin, we deny Him by our evil works. By choosing to sin, we deny Christ.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

He denies all those who deny Him (by their evil works) before His Father.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Luke 13:23-27
And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’(NASB)

If you don’t deny self you will never be a Christian. Sinning doesn’t mean one has not denied self; who then can ever enter the Kingdom?