He who endures to the end will be saved!

[MacDaddy]

Joh 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing.
Joh 3:23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized

Since Jesus instructed them, and authorized them, how is this not “Christian baptism”?

What kind of baptism do you think it was?

See response to ElvisMan on same comment. It was a baptism of repentance, just like John’s, which is why Jesus never baptized as chapter 4 established.

 

[MacDaddy]

Hey - these verses speak to those who CLAIM to be of God and are instead false prophets.
I don’t** know this person so how could I - or YOU, for that matter - make the claim that she is a child of God? She may be - but then again, she may not be. Same goes for you, me and anybody else.
I am called upon by God to know people by their fruits - and so far, that’s what I see: False "truth".

The previous post you pronounced judgment on her. If fruit is the indication, which it is, then I see no concerned about Tweety. It is one thing to disagree with someone and another to try to insult and demoralize them; to my knowledge, Jesus nor the Apostles nor any of His true disciples ever taught such things. Seems to me that you would just dust off your shoes and move on instead of behaving with rants that are meant to hurt. You must do as the Lord leads you.

 

[MacDaddy]

Guan,
You always have a way of speaking the truth in love.
It is love that makes so many of us tarry here.
So many of us can learn from your example.
A blessed New Year to you and yours.

*** “But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ”***
** (Eph. 4: 15).**

 

[SHW]

Indeed, if we are obedient to that which was delivered to us, we will inherit the gift of eternal life.

2Ti 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Do you really think a person can get to heaven if Christ denies him?

No one can snatch us, but we can sure jump out!

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

We cannot jump out. We never ever get placed into His hand unless He first predestined us to inherit eternal life.

 

[MacDaddy]

Mac, I think you are coming in a little late on this conversation. Tweety rejects Catholic doctrine, yet, she is in a position to teach the new converts coming into the faith. Many Catholics here on CAF have expressed concerns about what she teaches them. She is a very good Baptist theologically. This is of limited benefit to persons seeking Catholic instruction.

No one has read her “heart”. In fact, she seems like a very sincere, committed, fervent Christian serving in a Catholic parish. She does a lot for Catholics, considering that she has rejected Catholicism.

that is very generous, I think.

I have been watching the dialogue and it speaks for itself. That’s all I can say except maybe you should dust off your shoes and move on; only as the Lord might lead you.

 

[Carlan]

We been discussing this issue since this thread started and it’s exactly what the Catholic posters have been presenting.

You float in and out of salvation based on your mortal sin. Justification is a process rather than an event. You are only justified if you cooperate until death. It’s all merit driven.

The Truth of the Church teach es:
Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God
and away from sin, so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the Glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most exellent work of God’s mercy.
Sanctifying grace it the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us: it is infused with the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God”.

We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace,  Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration.   *** Man's merit is due to God.***

“If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me”Carlan

 

[MacDaddy]

Mac, you have been misled. In fact, the NT talks about only ONE CHURCH, and Jesus repeatedly talks about establishing “MY Church”. there are not “churchs” plural, but only one Church.

Carnal and united by the Spirit of Christ. One is made of churches and the other is the true catholic church.

The communities addressed in Rev. were all Catholic.

Catholic in what sense of the word?

There were no "denominations’. These are a man made condition that began about 1500 years ago. Jesus wants us all to be One.

If God is sovereign over all, and He is, then denominations must be part of the plan. Christians by their very nature are one with Christ and one with the Spirit and one with the Father.

No, in fact, this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

You just contradicted yourself.

 

[MacDaddy]

Mac, I think you missed the mark here. The Apostles do not encourage us in behavior that is on a “human and worldly level”. The honor that we give to those who are over us in the Lord emanates from the spiritual plane. The source of that honor is their obedience to God. It has nothing to do with a human and worldly “level” but results from our esteem for their obedience to God on a spiritual level.

The worship in spirit and truth is the holy sacrifice of the mass.

That’s not what the Bible teaches, but I do thank you for helping me understand your position.

 

[MacDaddy]

Why? Do you not really believe that Jesus wants to save you from your sins?

2Ti 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself.

He will always give you the freedom to walk a away from Him. If you do, He will be there waiting, watching the horizon, knocking at the door, waiting for you to return.

That is not what my Lord has taught; He did say through Paul that “He began a good work and will complete it till the day of the Lord”. I believe Him. The one who can’t endure has never received Christ and the promise is not for that person.

 

[MacDaddy]

We die to sin through baptism. Colossians 2:11-12 We are spiritually regenerated through Baptism. Baptism saves/justifies us.

Titus 3:4-7
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 **so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. **

Washing which He poured out upon us means water Baptism.

Christ reconciles us spiritually to God through Baptism. We now have **hope of eternal life **and we should become heirs of the kingdom of heaven.

We must imitate Christ and live our lives to God, in obedience to His commands, if we desire to actually become heirs of the kingdom of God. We must be dead to sin - we must not commit sins (sow to the flesh), we must instead do works of righteousness (sow to the Spirit) Galatians 6:8 in order to remain dead to sin and inherit the promises Hebrews 6:12 at the end of our lives Matthew 24:12-13.

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

Ephesians 2:15
having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is,** the law of commandments contained in ordinances**, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

The “law of commands contained in ordinances” refers to the Sabbath restrictions, dietary laws, etc. Christ’s New Covenant frees us from these laws of the Law of Moses.

to be continued…

No washing of regeneration does not mean water baptism and water cannot save, the baptism of the Holy spirit is the seal of redemption in Christ and the washing of regeneration deals with repentance.

“raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” - That is the work of God and it is by faith.

By the way, how do you make that link like that without having to put the entire URL? Can you teach me? Thanks.

 

[MacDaddy]

I am not seeing any contradiction. Can you help me?

What you are saying would only make sense if we separated Peter from the rest of the Foundation, and set him apart by himself. Is this what you think happened?

Go back and reread the entire post and I think I was very clear.

 

[guanophore]

When I came to Christ, God adopted me as one of His children. The adoption papers were signed by the precious blood of the Lamb. I do not float in and out of His family through my sin no more than one of my own children who have rebelled against my rules.

Of course not.! If you are disobedient and rebellious, it does not mean you are “unadopted”. It just means you may not receive your inheritance.

In my own experiences with my children when they disobey I get more fierce in bringing them back into obedience. The deeper the rebellion the harder the fight for them to return. When we sin against our Father, He still continues to see us through the perfect sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ and we remain as one of His children. Whom God loves He chastises, and with that He has the armory of His choosing to bring his children back into the fold, including the pain of physical death.

Yes, of course. However, because we are sons, and not slaves, we have the free will to deny Him. If all his loving efforts to get us to return to Him go out without a response from us, He will deny us in our final impenitence.

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Fall to what? Read back…

“ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ”
“nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.”

He saying that if you want to enjoy the assurances of your election, do these things, else you will be ineffective and unproductive, near sighted and blind, and forgetting you were cleased from your past sin - (no assurance). So do them and your rewards in Heaven will be great!!!

Branches that do not bear fruit are cut off, and thrown into the fire. Salt that loses it’s flavor is trodden underfoot. Branches are cut off from the vine.

I agree with you that lack of spiritual disciplines make us less useless to God. But it is possible to go beyond just being useless, and falling from grace all together.

 

[MacDaddy]

Continued:

Romans 6:17-18
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

He assumes that all of them are now obedient to God’s commandments and that they are no longer slaves to sin. But, in order to make sure that they actually do inherit eternal life when they die, he commands them to “now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.” Romans 6:19

Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin (through Baptism), and having become slaves of God (slaves of righteousness), you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-23
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you evildoers!

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If we sin, then we are no longer “in” Christ Jesus. If we sin mortal sins (sins which cause death of spiritual life in the soul), then He no longer abides in us and so we no longer abide in Him. If we no longer abide in Him at the end of our lives because we sinned and did not repent, then we are gathered and thrown into the fire.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

1 John 3:24
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If we do not keep His commandments, then we defile our temples/souls with sins and the Holy Spirit will destroy us if we do not repent before our deaths.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself.

We should not deceive ourselves by thinking that we can break God’s commandments and still inherit eternal life. Christ is the “author and finisher of our faith in Him” of only those who obey Him to the end of their lives Hebrews 12:1-3, Hebrews 5:9.

Matthew 13:40-42
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
41The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

Matthew 24:12-13
Because of the increase of wickedness,** the love of most will grow cold**, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.

This is not the God of my salvation. Salvation is both a one time event and a life long process; it wholly depends on the perspective mans and Gods, both are true.

 

[Carlan]

*I have been watching the dialogue and it speaks for itself. * That’s all I can say except maybe you should dust off your shoes and move on; only as the Lord might lead you.

/Well, it would I’d say, depending on where you are coming from, these are after all Catholic forums, and this particular thread is non- Catholic religions.Carlan

 

[MacDaddy]

When I came to Christ, God adopted me as one of His children. The adoption papers were signed by the precious blood of the Lamb. I do not float in and out of His family through my sin no more than one of my own children who have rebelled against my rules. In my own experiences with my children when they disobey I get more fierce in bringing them back into obedience. The deeper the rebellion the harder the fight for them to return. When we sin against our Father, He still continues to see us through the perfect sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ and we remain as one of His children. Whom God loves He chastises, and with that He has the armory of His choosing to bring his children back into the fold, including the pain of physical death.

Amen, I was adopted and made joint heirs with Christ and will climb right up onto that throne one day soon.

 

[MacDaddy]

Actually water baptism has jewish roots.
jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=222&letter=B&search=baptism

I do not need to look at the link, the Jews water baptized when gentiles wanted to convert. I’m not sure why this would be relevant because that baptism was not a Christian baptism, which is done either in the Names of the Father, Son and Spirt or in the Name of Christ as Acts 2 shows us. None of this was being done before the church started.

 

[MacDaddy]

**
God places in His hand ONLY those whom He has also predestined.** None of us can be absolutely sure if we are predestined until we die and are judged.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:16-17
as also in all his (Paul’s) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.

Then explain to me how the Catholic church has made or is the right word canonized so many saints, yet cannot be sure of their own salvation? I was reading about that earlier and did not make an ounce of sense to me and still doesn’t.

 

[SHW]

I read the passage on Ephesian 2 and it is very good at defining what the church is, which is the collection of the saints and citizens that make up the household of God, which is the church I belong to. I believe it is worth noting that the text reads “having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets” with the word “built” having to do with building onto that which exists, which of course is Jesus, which is the foundation of the church I belong to. Being built or laid upon by the prophets and ALL of the apostles contradicts the Matthew 16 understanding as Peter being the foundation. If this were true, then should we not then toss out a large portion of Scripture because of the direct contradiction?

Jesus actually said that He will build His Church upon Peter the rock. Future tense. The other apostles built upon the foundation of Peter. Jesus built His Church upon the prophets also because He fulfilled their prophecies concerning Him Luke 24:44.

Ephesians 2:20
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

This is past tense now. Peter is numbered among these apostles. They have made disciples of all the nations of the then known world Romans 1:8. **The Church is a group of like-minded believers who believe the gospel of Christ and also live it/observe it **James 1:21-22.

Romans 15:20
And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation,

Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel Matthew 15:22-28. Peter and others were commanded to preach to the Jews and Paul was commanded to preach to the Gentiles Galatians 2:7-8.

1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

They are to teach “others” and the these “others” will teach others also 2 Timothy 2:2 and this is called apostolic succession.

I see no contradiction. Let’s keep the Scriptures, okay? 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

[MacDaddy]

Actually we can, because we stand simply and solely on the merits of Jesus Christ and His blood that was shed on the cross. This is His promise to us and also the Father’s will. This covenant has been sealed by the blood of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He is faithful and will uphold His promises.

And knowing that we have this confidence where the Holy Son of the God is sitting at the right hand of Father pleading our case, our hope is not looking forward to what we might obtain through our works, but looking backwards to our hope in what Christ Jesus has already obtained for us. And through this same hope we are ever greatful and obedient onto death.

“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

Also 1John 5
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. 13 ***I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. ***

Just call me Saint MacDaddy.

 

[guanophore]

You float in and out of salvation based on your mortal sin. Justification is a process rather than an event. You are only justified if you cooperate until death. It’s all merit driven.

I think it seems that way to you Rocket because you have a different concept of salvation from what the Apostles believed and taught.

It would be more accurate to say that we move in and out of a state of grace. We enter salvation at the moment of justification. It may make more sense to think of it as entering the River of Life. After having entered it, we can also go out of it. That does not change the fact that we entered it in the first place, but if we meet our maker before we return to the river of life after sojourning in sin we will die in our sins.

Justification is an event, Rocket. If you do not think that this is a teaching of the Catholic Church, I suggest you read the joint declaration.

Cooperation with grace is not “merit driven”, whatever that means.

We can only cooperate with His grace because God is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. We are conformed by His grace into His image and likeness, transformed daily as we die to ourselves, and Christ is formed in us.

Why is it that Protestants can be sanctified by grace, through faith, but when Catholics want to be sanctified, it has to be done by works of the flesh?

This is one of the persistent mysteries I encounter here from our separated brethren.