He who lives by the sword must buy a sword.

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Here are two passages that I remember:

Matt 26:52- He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

Luke 22:36b- He who doesnt have a sword sell your cloak and buy one.

So how does this work out in terms of self defense? I kind of understand that Jesus didnt need protecting when the Jews came for Him, and that it was the way He was supposed to go to the cross, but is there more?
 
Catholic Dude:
Here are two passages that I remember:

Matt 26:52- He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

Luke 22:36b- He who doesnt have a sword sell your cloak and buy one.

So how does this work out in terms of self defense? I kind of understand that Jesus didnt need protecting when the Jews came for Him, and that it was the way He was supposed to go to the cross, but is there more?
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To live by the sword is to embrace violence and destruction as a lifestyle. It is the the heart and spirit of that life that causes ones own destruction. If I am protecting my family from attack that is done in love and I am expected to do so. The spirit of defense of self and family is part of Gods design in us.

Living by the sword = corrupt

Self defense and defense of family = responsibility in love

-D
 
Hello Catholic Dude,

Your confusion probubly stems from so many people trying to make Jesus into a pacifist to bolster their personal pacifist political stands.

Please visit Throwing Stones which studies the scriptures relating to Jesus will on when to kill to protect the innocent.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
Jesus is neither a pasifist or a “flower power” from the 60-es! We are to protect ourselves and our families and we are to protect our catholic faith.

We are to love our enemies and pray for them, but we are not to invite dem into our houses!

About protecting faith from evil forces ( “Three Secret Strategies
of Satan to Destroy our Children, our Families, our Culture, and our Church”):
saint-mike.org/library/brojp/secret.asp

G. Grace
 
Gratias Grace:
Jesus is neither a pasifist or a “flower power” from the 60-es! We are to protect ourselves and our families and we are to protect our catholic faith.

We are to love our enemies and pray for them, but we are not to invite dem into our houses!

About protecting faith from evil forces ( “Three Secret Strategies
of Satan to Destroy our Children, our Families, our Culture, and our Church”):
saint-mike.org/library/brojp/secret.asp

G. Grace
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So how do you explain the fact that christians for the first three hundred years where put to death injustly for their faith? Not enough swords?

Jeff
 
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jphilapy:
So how do you explain the fact that christians for the first three hundred years where put to death injustly for their faith? Not enough swords?

Jeff
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Anybody can be put to death for any reason. People will always have free will. If I have a baby in my house and some insane junky crawls through the window with a survival knife should I do nothing? I think fair verbal warning followed by three rounds center mass is just fine in such an instant. (Hopefully verbal warning prevails)

-D
 
Darrel,
I agree with your scenario and the (hopefully) peaceful resolution to a home invasion. However, I must state that you shouldn’t put three rounds center mass, put two rounds center mass and the third in the brain pan. The bad guys sometimes wear kevlar underwear now 😉
 
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jphilapy:
So how do you explain the fact that christians for the first three hundred years where put to death injustly for their faith? Not enough swords?

Jeff
Click to expand...
The first Christians were not pacifists. They were fugitives and wanted “criminals”, but were loyal to the state.

It’s not that they refused to fight back; they simply knew that the Empire’s power was too much for them. Besides, they were not just indiscriminately murdered; they were offered the chance to renounce their “atheism” and sacrifice to the Emperor. Rather than do this, they rather accepted death. This is a far cry from pacifism. In fact, this is warfare at its finest.
 
I am reminded of the old Quaker who faced a burglar in his home. He held our his gun and stated, “Friend, I would not harm thee for the world. But thou art standing where I am about to shoot.” 🙂
 
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jphilapy:
So how do you explain the fact that christians for the first three hundred years where put to death injustly for their faith? Not enough swords?

Jeff
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Hi jphilapy!

I want to reccomand the article “Three Secret Strategies
of Satan to Destroy our Children, our Families, our Culture, and our Church” wich I placed a link to in my last post.

It says that Satan feel competent when he has managed to seduse us to beliive that 1) All opinions are equal (ex: abortion is right for them that hold that opinion and wrong for those that holds the opposite opinion. 2) - that we never shall judge anyone 3) - that we never shall step on toes.

I shall not repete the article here, but here the “swords” are Believe in God, Bible and the Churchs Teaching. It’s the use of appropriate words in dayly life to defend faith (even if that is stepping on somones toes) that will be the weapon! :yup:

I have the right to defend my self (and so have you). If someone tried to “kidnap” me because I am catholic, I would have bit them, hit them, scratched them etc until all that was impossible because they tied me up. :mad: (My hope would have been to come free from them so I still could be a christian on earth). 👍

So when I sat there unarmed :crying: , I would still have one “weapon” left, the love of Jesus Christ. ❤️ If they now said that they would let me free if I was willing to forsake Christ I would have fallen in the snares of the devil if I said YES just to save my life. The hard, but only correct way to answer would have been with a big NO, I will not forsake my Lord and savior.

The first christians died because they were persecuted by someone that had the will and effort to wait in ambush to torture them to death. :getholy: We don’t know so much about if they tried to fight to be free the first miutes of the attach . Perhaps some did, while others were made passive :bigyikes: because they knew that to fight would not help against the superiority of their enemy! :gopray2:

G.Grace
 
What it means is don’t go around starting fights.

As a current example, check out the inner cities and the gang culture…they live short lives. They either kill each other or they are killed by the police, those who carry the proverbial sword on behalf of people such as yourself and myself.

But if someone picks a fight with you, finish it then and there, and use force if necessary.

We are called to be peaceful, but we have a moral obligation to defend the gift of life that God gave to us and to those we love.

There is such a thing as justification of force.

I am a woman and I live alone. I can tell you that if I hear footsteps on my stairs any time of the day and they dont’ sound like the paw-steps of my dogs, I will shoot first and ask questions later. I’ll pull that trigger and hire someone to clean up the mess, then I’ll have my home blessed and I’ll move. And go to confession because I fear if something like that were to happen I wouldn’t feel bad aobut it at all.

If our country was under attack and the attackers entered my home, I would take them out to the best of my ability. If they attacked my neighbors home I would fire upon them until they were all dead and I was out of ammo.

Buit as long as we have relative peace in my neighborhood, my gun remains stored. I actually have a career which puts me in touch with a very criminal element…but I trust in God that I don’t need to carrry my gun. I trust God in that with my dogs no one will enter my home becaue my dogs will deter them. I have a phone to call the police if someone screams outside, and I have hands to help them if they need help.

To live by the sword means to weild it and use it. To purchase a sword is to use it in defense only.
 
I think I’m about to get myself in trouble.

He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

In the translation I have in front of me, including the line before and after, which I feel are important for context:

Mathew 26:51-53

"Suddenly, one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it, and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled, which say it must happen this way?”

We have always presumed that this was an outright condemnation. Perhaps it was. Perhaps it was not. It was, absolutely without doubt, wisdom. If you live a life of violence, irregardless of how moral or noble your cause is, you will, in all likelyhood, die in the same fashion.

In this case, one man drew a sword against many. It was going to end poorly for him, and the Lord himself had determined that Jesus must be arrested.

So, how does this apply to violence in general? I feel that in this one piece of scripture, it simply tells you the Truth. Any warrior throughout history can tell you that if you live your life with a sword in your hand, in all likelyhood it is a sword that will end your life. It simply is.

To truly judge whether violence is appropriate or not, I suggest other words of our Savior.

John 13:34

“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another.”

If you take up your sword, laying down your life to protect all of the people around you, their lives, their children, their church, their fathers and their wives, is this love? I’m not a teacher, a priest, or an apologist, but I feel it is. Will you still die by a sword very much like the one in your hand? There is a strong chance that you will.

If you defend your child from an intruder, is this love? I think so. Could it just as easily be you, dead in your home, with three shots in your center of mass? Yes.

How about defending only yourself? You must decide for yourself. Personally, and I mean this for myself alone, I am not willing to take the life of another man only to save my own. I believe I would rather fall, and I pray that I have the courage to accept that.

I feel it is important to note, that just because something is necessary and/or justified, that does not necessarily make it right. We’re I a soldier, and I killed to serve my people, I would still pray for forgiveness for the blood on my hands. And then, the next day, I would rise again and continue to serve the people I promised to serve in exactly the same way. The task of a soldier is, in many cases, noble, necessary, justified, brutal, bloody, and likely to end in violence.

But I’ve been known to be wrong before.
 
Concerning this question I would like to make two points. First, read up on the “Just War” theories of Augustine and Aquinas. Both have influenced western thought more than anyone else, in my opinion, and their thories on a “Just War” also is the root of our thinking in the West on the principles of self defense which have been used to justify the use of military force through out modern history to, believe it or not Abortion.
My second point is basically is Jesus in your passage is stating the fact that if aggression/oppression is your only path to power (the ability to influence the your own life and the life of others) then you will be defeated, I don’t believe it was a blancket condemnation of the use of force in every case which brings us back to the question on a “Just War”.
 
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Styree:
… I must state that you shouldn’t put three rounds center mass, put two rounds center mass and the third in the brain pan.
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Have you ever tried a head shot on a MOVING object? Not an easy thing to do. At least not for me anyway. Maybe your skills are better tuned than mine.
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Styree:
… The bad guys sometimes wear kevlar underwear now
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I didn’t realize that Kevlar is available to the general public. Got a link to a place that sells it?
 
Sir Knight:
Have you ever tried a head shot on a MOVING object? Not an easy thing to do. At least not for me anyway. Maybe your skills are better tuned than mine.

I didn’t realize that Kevlar is available to the general public. Got a link to a place that sells it?
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No link here, but if you don’t mind it coming from…independent…sources, I’ll meet you on main street at midnight tonight. Come alone.
 
I have to tell you, I burst out laughing at the title of this thread.
A few years ago, I did a presentation for the children at my church. My pastor asked someone to tell them the story of a saint, dressed as the saint. I did St Joan of Arc.
I was telling a relative about it ahead of time, & I said all I lacked was a sword. She said, “We have:eek: two; which one do you want? One looks nice, but it’s very dull. The other one isn’t very fancy, but my son keeps it :bigyikes:sharp enough to actually:bigyikes: fight with”:bigyikes:…:bigyikes:.
( I took the :ehh: dull one for the kiddies).
 
Wow…I don’t believe this thread could possibly get any more American.

Catholic Dude, you (and your friendly neighbourhood skeptics) may see an apparent contradiction in these two verses but in actuality they demonstrate the finetuned balance of paradox in Catholic Orthodoxy.

Those who live by the sword die by the sword, yet one must have a sword! Self-defense is necessary, but do not let it turn into aggression… it should always be a last resort. When Jesus told His Apostles to make sure they were armed, He was clueing them in to the fact that they (and the Church they would build) would need to be protected. When He told Peter to put aside his sword at His arrest, Jesus warned him that excessive use of force would only cause self-injury.

When one sees apparent contradictions in the faith, they are not looking deep enough.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Here are two passages that I remember:

Matt 26:52- He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

Luke 22:36b- He who doesnt have a sword sell your cloak and buy one.

So how does this work out in terms of self defense? I kind of understand that Jesus didnt need protecting when the Jews came for Him, and that it was the way He was supposed to go to the cross, but is there more?
Click to expand...
I don’t have THE answer here. However, in reading the words of Leo Tolstoy, Mahatma Gandhi and Fr. John Dear, S.J. (besides the Dalai Lama), I am coming to the place where violence in response to violence may never be justified. If you look at "the last ‘good’ war (WW II), you’ll find that as the war progressed, obscene levels of violence by the Allies ensued - the firebombings of Tokyo, Hamburg, Dresden; the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki; etc. Can anything on earth justify those acts, regardless of what the Germans and the Japanese did? I no longer think so. And look at our present “defense” budget - it more than equals the combined total arms budgets of all the other nations on Earth. What is wrong with us?

It is not a matter of the Father being mad at a living soul (I don’t think “He” is). It is a matter of being faithful to the teaching and example of Jesus, who knew what was best for each and all of us; i.e., where joy lies for all of us.
 
BobR42 said:
I don’t have THE answer here. However, in reading the words of Leo Tolstoy, Mahatma Gandhi and Fr. John Dear, S.J. (besides the Dalai Lama), I am coming to the place where violence in response to violence may never be justified.
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Remember that God turned His back on Saul when Saul refused to put kill his enemy with the sword saying that He regretted ever making Saul a king – clearly showing that the way of peace is not always pleasing to God and sometimes a sword or a gun is the correct response.
BobR42 said:
If you look at "the last ‘good’ war (WW II), you’ll find that as the war progressed, obscene levels of violence by the Allies ensued - the firebombings of Tokyo, Hamburg, Dresden; the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki; etc. Can anything on earth justify those acts, regardless of what the Germans and the Japanese did? I no longer think so. And look at our present “defense” budget - it more than equals the combined total arms budgets of all the other nations on Earth. What is wrong with us?

It is not a matter of the Father being mad at a living soul (I don’t think “He” is). It is a matter of being faithful to the teaching and example of Jesus, who knew what was best for each and all of us; i.e., where joy lies for all of us.
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What did Christ teach? That we are to sell our cloak and buy a sword if we did not have one. A sword has only one purpose – to be used as a weapon.Jesus would not have commanded His followers to purchase something if it was not to be used.
 
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