T
TNT
Guest
OOPS, forgot the Scripture part.
Martin Luther couldn’t have said it better.
- Status
Martin Luther couldn’t have said it better.
K
Kelly
Guest
I was responding to your earlier remark that Church law still required women to wear a veil. Church law does not!
S
system
Guest
Yes, you are correct, but you are missing the point. They were only trying to get across that when you see our Lord face to face, what would you wear? Mass=Seeing our Lord face to face. I think this was all they were trying to say. I, myself, have started wearing mantillas since I asked my husband for them or Christmas. I thought they would help remind me what my place is as a wife, a mother, and a woman. I believe that I have een able to be more reverant at Mass and that it is changing my attitude for things that I used to think were appropriate.
Here is an excerp from the Douay Rheims version 1 Corinthians 11 verse 3-22.
3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God.
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4 Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head.
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5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.
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6 For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.
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7 The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man.
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8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
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9 For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man.
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10 Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.
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11 But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord.
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12 For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God.
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13 You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered?
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14 Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him?
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15 But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.
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16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Church of God.
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17 Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together, not for the better, but for the worse.
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18 For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you. And in part I believe it.
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19 For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved may be made manifest among you.
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20 When you come therefore together into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord’s supper.
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21 For every one taketh before his own supper to eat. And one indeed is hungry and another is drunk.
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22 What, have you no houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God and put them to shame that have not? What shall I say to you? Do I praise you? In this I praise you not.
KayMS:
Here is an excerp from the Douay Rheims version 1 Corinthians 11 verse 3-22.
3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
4 Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
6 For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
7 The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
9 For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
10 Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
11 But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
12 For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
13 You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered?
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him?
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
15 But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Church of God.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
17 Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together, not for the better, but for the worse.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
18 For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you. And in part I believe it.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
19 For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved may be made manifest among you.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
20 When you come therefore together into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord’s supper.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
21 For every one taketh before his own supper to eat. And one indeed is hungry and another is drunk.
http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif
22 What, have you no houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God and put them to shame that have not? What shall I say to you? Do I praise you? In this I praise you not.
God Bless you!
K
Kristopher
Guest
When was it ever not mandatory for women to wear veils, or head coverings, at mass?
K
KayMS
Guest
vicia3:
Veiling is a discipline which the Church made non-mandatory with the inception of the 1983 Code of Canon Law (well noted above - approved by a pope). God gave the Church the power to change discipline (that is dogma).Matthew 18 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church. (De fide) –Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ott p. 285.
Therefore, those scripture passages you quoted must be interpreted in light of the Church’s authority. So, though women (such as myself) may have a strong personal inclination to wear the veil because of the scripture passages, the long standing tradition of its use, and the theology of subjection, the Church (God’s authority on earth) says it is not mandatory. Yes, Scripture is the inspired Word of God, but we must not interpret it in absence of the Church’s authority (which includes today’s Church) especially since those passages talk about being in subjection to BOTH spouse and Church. My veil is part of me, something I wear because I understand the theology and significance of the veil; it is not something I “have to” wear.
Lastly, it is the internal desire to be in subjection that has the greatest weight - not the external application (publican, pharisee). I wear my veil externally to represent my internal action but that does NOT mean women without a veil are not adhering to the call to subjection and are quite likely doing it with greater humility than I (I am quite imperfect). God will judge our hearts, not our wears (mind you, I am speaking of veils NOT immodest clothing. The lack of a veil does not scandalize others while inappropriate dress might certainly do this).
I am a traditional Cahtolic and have been wearing a chapel veil since I attended the English Mass. I attend almost exclusively the Tridentine Mass now. I did not miss the point of the veil, I simply wanted to clarify the idea of Mass as a sacrifice not a dinner.
Veiling is a discipline which the Church made non-mandatory with the inception of the 1983 Code of Canon Law (well noted above - approved by a pope). God gave the Church the power to change discipline (that is dogma).Matthew 18 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church. (De fide) –Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ott p. 285.
Therefore, those scripture passages you quoted must be interpreted in light of the Church’s authority. So, though women (such as myself) may have a strong personal inclination to wear the veil because of the scripture passages, the long standing tradition of its use, and the theology of subjection, the Church (God’s authority on earth) says it is not mandatory. Yes, Scripture is the inspired Word of God, but we must not interpret it in absence of the Church’s authority (which includes today’s Church) especially since those passages talk about being in subjection to BOTH spouse and Church. My veil is part of me, something I wear because I understand the theology and significance of the veil; it is not something I “have to” wear.
Lastly, it is the internal desire to be in subjection that has the greatest weight - not the external application (publican, pharisee). I wear my veil externally to represent my internal action but that does NOT mean women without a veil are not adhering to the call to subjection and are quite likely doing it with greater humility than I (I am quite imperfect). God will judge our hearts, not our wears (mind you, I am speaking of veils NOT immodest clothing. The lack of a veil does not scandalize others while inappropriate dress might certainly do this).
P
peregrinator_it
Guest
If some sort of head covering were required again, I would obey but I do not now wear a veil.
God does not care tuppence about our clothing as such. He cares about our love and obedience to Him.
It is our customs amongst ourselves that determines whether our dress is appropriate to an occasion or not. Immodesty aside, (that’s a somewhat separate issue) it is not appropriate to come to Mass in clothes that communicate that you don’t realize the importance of the occasion if you have the opportunity to put on better ones.
I am glad that veils are no longer mandated. I have hard time keeping track of small items and a veil would be one more thing to forget. It’s the sort of thing I would fiddle with and would be a distraction. (I don’t wear jewelry for this reason.)
Furthermore, I’m the oldest of seven children, five of whom are girls. When I was young, the diocese we lived in was in shambles, and we would make a 40 min. drive to church every Sunday to get the kids to a parish with orthodox catechetics etc. I was responsible for getting my sisters ready for church. My family was not well off and it was often a struggle finding something clean and appropriate for everyone. I’m eternally grateful that I did not also have to make sure everyone had a veil!!
Appropriate dress is a form of reverence and reverence cannot be legislated into being. Yes, the externals can be controlled, but they are only externals.
God does not care tuppence about our clothing as such. He cares about our love and obedience to Him.
It is our customs amongst ourselves that determines whether our dress is appropriate to an occasion or not. Immodesty aside, (that’s a somewhat separate issue) it is not appropriate to come to Mass in clothes that communicate that you don’t realize the importance of the occasion if you have the opportunity to put on better ones.
I am glad that veils are no longer mandated. I have hard time keeping track of small items and a veil would be one more thing to forget. It’s the sort of thing I would fiddle with and would be a distraction. (I don’t wear jewelry for this reason.)
Furthermore, I’m the oldest of seven children, five of whom are girls. When I was young, the diocese we lived in was in shambles, and we would make a 40 min. drive to church every Sunday to get the kids to a parish with orthodox catechetics etc. I was responsible for getting my sisters ready for church. My family was not well off and it was often a struggle finding something clean and appropriate for everyone. I’m eternally grateful that I did not also have to make sure everyone had a veil!!
Appropriate dress is a form of reverence and reverence cannot be legislated into being. Yes, the externals can be controlled, but they are only externals.
S
system
Guest
I am not attacking you in any way. You are preaching to thew choir. I know that it is not mandatory. I merely put in the scriptures that helped me see why, in my own opinion, it would be a good desire for me to want ot wear a veil in church. I just became confirmed in the church a little over 1 year ago, so I may not be able to get my full message accross. The veil is also a part of me and that is all I was trying to get accross. But also the other person was just trying to say “what would you wear in front of Christ”. I find it interesting that you are not allowed, as a woman, to go before the Pope without your head covered. If we are not allowed to go before him without why, why should “I” go before my Lord without one. Please forgive me if I have said anything that has been misunderstood.
A
A.Pelliccio
Guest
St Paul commanded it and I dont ever remeber a decree or bull that made women in church not covering their hair the norm?
Ditto to the above post!
Ditto to the above post!
S
Sacramentalist
Guest
Saint Paul only made the coverings a norm for the Corinthians, and then went out of his way to say that this was not absolutely mandatory. He says that “we have no such custom” if this were to somehow scandalize non-Catholics.
M
maria2334
Guest
I cover my head for Mass, but it is required at my parish, so, as to the OP, I would have no problem whatsoever with a full and complete return to veiling.
S
Sacramentalist
Guest
No, it isn’t.
G
grandma
Guest
I am 76 now and for the first 35+ years, covered my head in church. I would do it again if it were required and not complain. At that time we wore hats much more often than veils, which seemed to come into vogue in our parish later. I belong to a very rural parish and live on a ranch. Most men and many of the women wear jeans to church. The difference here is if they are their ‘good’ jeans and not ones that look like they’d done chores in them. There is a world of difference in looking neat and clean and wearing the best they have and looking unkempt and unwashed or making a spectacle by wearing clothes that make females look like street walkers or guys like weirdo’s. Part of the problem is that the parents of today’s young people came out of the hippy days and haven’t been properly catechized. Proper dress and the reason for it needs to be the subject of teaching–either by the pastor in his homily/serman or in the bulletin or as part of the CCD programs. I doubt if many people mean disrespect but simply don’t know any better. Clothing is a cultural thing. We don’t wear toga’s and long garments like they did in Biblical times and aren’t expected to do so. The Blessed Mother wore a veil because that was what women in her day wore!! She also baked her bread in the community ovens, drew water at the common well, etc. We aren’t expected to do those things just because she did. I’m sure she’d think were were strange if we did! If you see this issue as a problem in your parish, offer to teach a class in proper decorum! Grandma
R
rjs1
Guest
St Paul ordered that women should have their heads covered in Church. He gave several theological reasons for this rule. Read about it in the Scriptures. What worries me is that we have dropped this custom relatively recently in the Church’s history simply because of secular cultural pressure. It was the rule in the Church for almost two thousand years .
Now we are told that Paul’s scriptural ruling was culturally conditioned and therefore no longer appllies to us.
Really!? Who are we to decide which parts of the rulings of the New Testament no longer apply because our secular society doesn’t like them?
St Paul gives very specific reasons for telling women that their head should be covered in Church. Read these reasons and you will see that they have nothing to do with the historical circumstances at the time, but are in fact timeless, having to do with creation, authority and the way God made the two sexes. (see I Corinthians 11:2-16)
Now we are told that Paul’s scriptural ruling was culturally conditioned and therefore no longer appllies to us.
Really!? Who are we to decide which parts of the rulings of the New Testament no longer apply because our secular society doesn’t like them?
St Paul gives very specific reasons for telling women that their head should be covered in Church. Read these reasons and you will see that they have nothing to do with the historical circumstances at the time, but are in fact timeless, having to do with creation, authority and the way God made the two sexes. (see I Corinthians 11:2-16)
H
hsmom2four
Guest
I’m not sure what I’d do; if my Church says to do it, I will probably obey, but reluctantly.
I have no problem with others wearing a head covering - it looks so beautiful. In fact, our parish just started a Tridentine Mass where it’s required, but we haven’t been to it yet because I have a problem with it - just flashbacks from childhood
I just remember those awful pith-helmet uniform hats we had (yes, they were that heavy and awkward), plus always wanting to wear a mantilla like my sis and mom, but having a “dorky” (I thought, anyways) chapel veil pinned very uncomfortably to my head. :crying:
Another problem is that for many women, this became a fashion statement of sorts - who could have the best hat, esp. at Easter and Christmas. When the head-covering was supposed to be a sign of modesty and submission, it became a sign of vanity instead. Poor little church-mice with their tattered mantillas vs. Mrs. Richie Rich and her $50 hat…:nope:
I’d also really hate to go back to the days of having Kleenex pinned to one’s head :bigyikes: What was the point of that? To humiliate someone? It looked really stupid, imho!
Please don’t think I’m judging anyone who chooses to cover their head at Mass - like I said before, I think it’s beautiful, it’s just not for me at this time. (I have to get over myself!)
I have no problem with others wearing a head covering - it looks so beautiful. In fact, our parish just started a Tridentine Mass where it’s required, but we haven’t been to it yet because I have a problem with it - just flashbacks from childhood
I just remember those awful pith-helmet uniform hats we had (yes, they were that heavy and awkward), plus always wanting to wear a mantilla like my sis and mom, but having a “dorky” (I thought, anyways) chapel veil pinned very uncomfortably to my head. :crying:
Another problem is that for many women, this became a fashion statement of sorts - who could have the best hat, esp. at Easter and Christmas. When the head-covering was supposed to be a sign of modesty and submission, it became a sign of vanity instead. Poor little church-mice with their tattered mantillas vs. Mrs. Richie Rich and her $50 hat…:nope:
I’d also really hate to go back to the days of having Kleenex pinned to one’s head :bigyikes: What was the point of that? To humiliate someone? It looked really stupid, imho!
Please don’t think I’m judging anyone who chooses to cover their head at Mass - like I said before, I think it’s beautiful, it’s just not for me at this time. (I have to get over myself!)
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
I’m not a woman and so did not vote in the poll but I’m totally in favor of a return to head coverings. It may not solve the problems of immodesty immediately but while many women know this already and I hope someday all will, your modesty makes men behave more modestly.
As my wife often says: “A woman’s job is to civilize the men in her life. Though I’ve failed miserably I’m still at my post.” She hasn’t failed but I don’t want her to give up.
I never ever go to Church without a tie even though I must carry one with me frequently in order to change.
I’m not too interested in mandating things but strong suggestions from time to time toward modesty would help and include in them a suggestion for a return to the head covering. We’ve believed the pagans and Feminists in our midst for too long. Let’s reclaim our patrimony.
Dan L
As my wife often says: “A woman’s job is to civilize the men in her life. Though I’ve failed miserably I’m still at my post.” She hasn’t failed but I don’t want her to give up.
I never ever go to Church without a tie even though I must carry one with me frequently in order to change.
I’m not too interested in mandating things but strong suggestions from time to time toward modesty would help and include in them a suggestion for a return to the head covering. We’ve believed the pagans and Feminists in our midst for too long. Let’s reclaim our patrimony.
Dan L
T
TNT
Guest
First:
No where is the reason given for head covering as being “**because that was what women in her day wore!!”.
**As I recall, Lucia’s description of the “Lady from heaven” included a veil, and that was 1917…less than 70 years before the 1983 canon law was published. A law which simply ignored 2000 years of unbroken practice in obedience to Her own Scriptural witness.
Paul’s discourse on the reason for head covering is Theological as the prev post points out. Not a thing to do with “her day”. If it was common practice in “her day” why is Paul having to require it, unless there was a number of women NOT wearing head covering, and men wearing head covering (like jewish skull caps) in church? This would point to just the opposite of what you proclaim in : “what women in her day wore!!”
Second:
There is no Scripture of the NT or OT that gives a theological requirement for “community ovens”, “common wells” or “togas”.
Therefore, bringing these up as comparative to the covered head in the Presence of God in Church is avoiding the the real issue. Making “straw man” arguments is not an argument at all.
The real issue is head covering as commanded by an Apostle himself. If this was only a custom of the time, why is it considered as revelation? Why did the Church practice it and also command it all the way to 1983?
The REAL reason for lifting the command (if it ever was) is explained in my signature yet again:
To destroy a Religion (and replace it), you must first sever its traditions.
Newchurch, by ignoring in slience the historical Scriptural rule of moral respect due to God, then sending out their “progressive goon squads” to belittle head covering, is that they can say “we didn’t officially say anything against Scripture”. This is typical “slithering theology”.
Of course the sheeple won’t see it that way, and that is what they rely on.
P
Patchunky
Guest
Just curious, but WHY do you wear a necktie to Church? Is it mandated in Scripture?
G
GoLatin
Guest
I always wear a head covering in church, whether I go to Tridentine or Novus Ordo.(I try to attend Tridentine exclusively.)
I usually wear a veil, but if my hair isn’t combed(I probably obsess about my hair too much), I wrap a scarf around my head.
If I am in a hurry, and my hair is already combed, I sometimes will wear the bandanna that is already on my head.
I think that it looks very good and modest for women to wear head coverings in church. I just wish that they would remember to put them on before they get in.
Also, women should dress modestly apart from the veil, especially in church.
In church, no pants(especially tight ones!), low cut tops, tops with really short sleeves, or short skirts!
Thanks for letting me vent. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
I usually wear a veil, but if my hair isn’t combed(I probably obsess about my hair too much), I wrap a scarf around my head.
If I am in a hurry, and my hair is already combed, I sometimes will wear the bandanna that is already on my head.
I think that it looks very good and modest for women to wear head coverings in church. I just wish that they would remember to put them on before they get in.
Also, women should dress modestly apart from the veil, especially in church.
In church, no pants(especially tight ones!), low cut tops, tops with really short sleeves, or short skirts!
Thanks for letting me vent. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
C
Catherine_S
Guest
I think I would too if it were made clear to women this time around the reason behind headcoverings. They were a symbol of something much much deeper ! An effort at first cleaning the inside of the cup might be a very good thing and shed as it were some light on this matter before doing so though.A headcovering like a wedding band or any other symbol or sign points to something much deeper but the much deeper may not be there within a person.I think the Church wanted to move past the external and move forward with the inward and eternal.
I am not certain that this was a good idea but we listened to the Church and got rid of our headcoverings. I would say by the relief and responses that many expressed when this was done** after** it had been** a must** for what seemed like forever, that most had not understood the deeper meaning for covering their heads. Even though** many** may have been living the reality.
Now may be a good time to reassess this decision.
When I was growing up, if we forgot our hats, we were not allowed into the Church until the nuns pinned a kleenex on the top of our heads (a clean one ofcourse)**
. Who knows that the dropping of headcoverings, along with other things, has not helped to produce and contribute to the lack of respect for others and the irreverence** that is expressed in the attire that people wear to Church in our own day. Why is the sense of “this is Holy Ground” non existed for so many?At Saint Peter’s in Rome women can not enter the Church** if** their clothing is inapprobriate and** most even non Catholic women cover their heads !!**
Just sharing my thoughts !!
Shalom,
Catherine
C
CarolAnnSFO
Guest
Catherine S.:
Crazy Internet Junkie Society
****Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
Please note that I am not attacking anything here, and I would be happy to wear a head covering if it were mandated again, but I am genuinely curious about this – if the head coverings are a sign of recognition that “this is Holy Ground” when we are in church, then why shouldn’t men also wear a head covering; maybe something like the yarmulke that Jewish men wear?
Crazy Internet Junkie Society
****Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
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