Health Care reform from a Doctors perspective

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If you are so scared of class warfare then get rid of the reasons for it, don’t complain about it.
Or how about quit making it where it doesn’t exist.
Have you checked the econemy lately? Iv’e sent out hundreds maybe thousands of resumes trying to get a job. Life still goes on, especially when it is of a child.
Wait a minute: didn’t you say in another thread that you chose to stay home to take care of your wife who has diabetes? I also thought you said in yet another thread you chose to stay home b/c of a child w/ cerebal palsey. Am I confusing you with another poster?
 
But you should teach your children good lesson. Not taking from other. Teaching them to live in the real world, that sometimes you have to make sacrifices.

This just shows the entitlement idea that leads to demands for socialized healthcare. Asp seems to think that everyone is entitled to have all the same things regardless of whether or not they have earned it. And I’m sorry that children get left out and can’t have perfect lives, but why should I take from my kids (later on) to provide for someone else’s?

Today at Walmart I saw a college girl making an EBT purchase. She bought about $164 in groceries. And she got really upset and was complaining because she had to pay $1.04 for an item not covered by EBT.

Finally, if we are to the point where we are giving people enough money to be able to throw expensive birthday parties, I guess we don’t need to donate to any more charities supplying americans and we don’t have to worry about healthcare because clearly there is plenty of government aid.
 
Or how about quit making it where it doesn’t exist.

Wait a minute: didn’t you say in another thread that you chose to stay home to take care of your wife who has diabetes? I also thought you said in yet another thread you chose to stay home b/c of a child w/ cerebal palsey. Am I confusing you with another poster?
No I didn’t choose to stay hom,e for anything. My mainjob let me go based on made up lies they can’t back up. I was WORKING and taking care of my disabled wife at the sametime. I’m helppin an adult with cerbralpulsy with various things because her parents don’t have a clue in the world what disabled means. So I plug on.
 
OK. I am sorry. I said I wouldn’t post any more and here I go. I don’t think you can buy party supplies such as balloons and napkins with food stamps. I could be wrong - I’ve never been on them myself. But I do have a good friend who was on them with her husband and she told me that they had never eaten better. She said they had lobster and steak whenever they wanted.

I’ve also read a “Dear Abby” letter, oh probably 20 years ago. In it a mother said that she had been given dirty looks when using food stamps to purchase a birthday cake for her daughter. It turned out (at least according to the letter) that this was going to be the little girl’s last birthday, as she was dying.

Now I will shut up. Promise.
I remember reading something about that! It stuck in my mind because it really taught me a lesson about not judging things I don’t know very much about.
 
OK. I am sorry. I said I wouldn’t post any more and here I go. I don’t think you can buy party supplies such as balloons and napkins with food stamps. I could be wrong - I’ve never been on them myself. But I do have a good friend who was on them with her husband and she told me that they had never eaten better. She said they had lobster and steak whenever they wanted.

I’ve also read a “Dear Abby” letter, oh probably 20 years ago. In it a mother said that she had been given dirty looks when using food stamps to purchase a birthday cake for her daughter. It turned out (at least according to the letter) that this was going to be the little girl’s last birthday, as she was dying.

Now I will shut up. Promise.
Hmm I can’t help to be curious of what Arwen’s response is to the dying child aspect of this post. With her being a staunch survivalist and all. I find it interesting how she says it’s her money paying for stuff like that, as if she is the only tax payer in the world. Good thing I still have strong eyes, they would be fatigued from rolling by now.
 
This birthday party discussion makes me think of this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=LfeXxkbgCVE
This is not something to watch with pregnancy hormones going nuts:o

But very much to the point I think.

C.S. Lewis talks in an essay about how there is nothing more infuriating than sitting down after we have finished our work, to read or do something else with our leisure time, only to have it swept away by some unexpected demand. But this anger comes from a fundemental error - from thinking that time can be in any way “ours”. Rather, it belongs to God, and we are given use of it, but not always in the way we would like.

I think the same can be said for money. Wealth comes from two sources - resources and the work of our bodies and minds. Neither truly belong to us, we didn’t make them - we hold them in trust for their Creator. So to want to see them used well is fine - but when we begin to feel personally incensed and as if we are somehow having our “rights” trampled on when demands are made that we don’t expect or like - to me that suggests that perhaps we are making a similar error.
 
Except there are people on this forum who are thinking money they haven’t even worked for is theirs. I’m pretty sure the money in my paycheck belongs to me much more than it belongs to anyone else.

And as for the dying child. That is something the local parish should be taking care of. Not the state. I can feel sorry for the kid without wanting to allow the state the power to determine who deserves the money I work for. I’ve given money at school and parish collections for local children.

Finally we are talking LEGAL. This has nothing to do with a religious or Christian duty. It has to do with constitutional laws.
 
Except there are people on this forum who are thinking money they haven’t even worked for is theirs. I’m pretty sure the money in my paycheck belongs to me much more than it belongs to anyone else.

And as for the dying child. That is something the local parish should be taking care of. Not the state. I can feel sorry for the kid without wanting to allow the state the power to determine who deserves the money I work for. I’ve given money at school and parish collections for local children.

Finally we are talking LEGAL. This has nothing to do with a religious or Christian duty. It has to do with constitutional laws.
Do you also then not support restrictions on gay marriage? How about abortion laws?

I think though you pretty much missed the point. It is not about “more mine than theirs”. If we choose to live a life where we give everyone only what they deserve, than we can probably expect something very similar when we ask for God’s mercy and compassion.
 
…C.S. Lewis talks in an essay about how there is nothing more infuriating than sitting down after we have finished our work, to read or do something else with our leisure time, only to have it swept away by some unexpected demand. But this anger comes from a fundemental error - from thinking that time can be in any way “ours”. Rather, it belongs to God, and we are given use of it, but not always in the way we would like.

I think the same can be said for money. Wealth comes from two sources - resources and the work of our bodies and minds. Neither truly belong to us, we didn’t make them - we hold them in trust for their Creator. So to want to see them used well is fine - but when we begin to feel personally incensed and as if we are somehow having our “rights” trampled on when demands are made that we don’t expect or like - to me that suggests that perhaps we are making a similar error.
Time and money cannot be exactly equated, because we do “make” money–we work for it. The right of a person to have control over his own property is indeed a human right deriving from man’s nature.

OTOH, the right of a person to hold onto his property (and time) is mitigated by the obligation to help those in need. However, this obligation is not to be regulated by the state. In the US, what is being proposed violates the principle of subsidiarity–the control of property is being taken away by too-high an authority, and one which is not the appropriate authority to begin with.
  1. Therefore, those whom fortune favors are warned that riches do not bring freedom from sorrow and are of no avail for eternal happiness, but rather are obstacles;(9) that the rich should tremble at the threatenings of Jesus Christ - threatenings so unwonted in the mouth of our Lord(10)—and that a most strict account must be given to the Supreme Judge for all we possess.
The chief and most excellent rule for the right use of money … rests on the principle that **it is one thing to have a right to the possession of money and another to have a right to use money as one wills. **Private ownership, as we have seen, is the natural right of man, and to exercise that right, especially as members of society, is not only lawful, but absolutely necessary. “It is lawful,” says St. Thomas Aquinas, “for a man to hold private property; and it is also necessary for the carrying on of human existence.”"

But if the question be asked: How must one’s possessions be used?—the Church replies without hesitation in the words of the same holy Doctor: “**Man should not consider his material possessions as his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when others are in need. **Whence the Apostle with, ‘Command the rich of this world… to offer with no stint, to apportion largely.’”(12)

True, **no one is commanded to distribute to others that which is required for his own needs and those of his household; nor even to give away what is reasonably required to keep up becomingly his condition in life, **“for no one ought to live other than becomingly.”(13)

But, when what necessity demands has been supplied, and one’s standing fairly taken thought for, it becomes a duty to give to the indigent out of what remains over. “Of that which remaineth, give alms.”(14)

It is a duty, not of justice (save in extreme cases), but of Christian charity—a duty not enforced by human law. But the laws and judgments of men must yield place to the laws and judgments of Christ the true God, who in many ways urges on His followers the practice of almsgiving - ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive";(15) and who will count a kindness done or refused to the poor as done or refused to Himself—“As long as you did it to one of My least brethren you did it to Me.”(16)

To sum up, then, what has been said: Whoever has received from the divine bounty a large share of temporal blessings, whether they be external and material, or gifts of the mind, **has received them for the purpose of using them for the perfecting of his own nature, and, at the same time, that he may employ them, as the steward of God’s providence, for the benefit of others. “**He that hath a talent,” said St. Gregory the Great, “let him see that he hide it not; he that hath abundance, let him quicken himself to mercy and generosity; he that hath art and skill, let him do his best to share the use and the utility hereof with his neighbor.”(17) (This is from Rerum Novarum; I put in the paragraphs to make it easier to read online.)

Now, what we see is that a person has the right to use one’s property to keep one’s life appropriately. That which he earns over and above that is given to him as a steward, to distribute to others. However, the control is his, as he himself earned it (or if he inherited, it was given to him by someone who earned it).

Note that it says that the excess should be used in accord with God’s will, which is to say, if God gives someone excess, God wants that person to use it to help the needy.

What does the state propose? The state proposes *mandating *what someone will do with the money he has earned—in effect creating a tax—which removes the decision-making from the person to whom that decision belongs. Starting a business will be seriously hampered by this bill, as will various other things in life. IOW, this is going beyond the boundaries of what the state should do and micromanaging a family’s internal budget.

Furthermore, the obligation to help the needy is not a form of justice, which is the concern of the state, but with charity, which is *not *the concern of the state.

PS: Congratulations 😃
 
This birthday party discussion makes me think of this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=LfeXxkbgCVE
You’re right, so many think of those who earn money as just a source of revenue and don’t stop to think that they have things in their life that they are dealing with. The parrent who is trying earn money to send their kid to college or save up enough to have a vacation with the family or something else. We don’t seem to care about the reason they are working so hard to make a better life for themselves, society just seems to see them as some inhuman source of revenue.
 
This is not something to watch with pregnancy hormones going nuts:o

But very much to the point I think.

C.S. Lewis talks in an essay about how there is nothing more infuriating than sitting down after we have finished our work, to read or do something else with our leisure time, only to have it swept away by some unexpected demand. But this anger comes from a fundemental error - from thinking that time can be in any way “ours”. Rather, it belongs to God, and we are given use of it, but not always in the way we would like.

I think the same can be said for money. Wealth comes from two sources - resources and the work of our bodies and minds. Neither truly belong to us, we didn’t make them - we hold them in trust for their Creator. So to want to see them used well is fine - but when we begin to feel personally incensed and as if we are somehow having our “rights” trampled on when demands are made that we don’t expect or like - to me that suggests that perhaps we are making a similar error.
I agree our lives belong to God, not to bums who wish to take and exploit.
 
Do you also then not support restrictions on gay marriage? How about abortion laws?

I think though you pretty much missed the point. It is not about “more mine than theirs”. If we choose to live a life where we give everyone only what they deserve, than we can probably expect something very similar when we ask for God’s mercy and compassion.
So if you woke up tomorrow to find your car stolen, or came home to find your home emptied, you wouldn’t mind? and would not press charges?
 
To sum up, then, what has been said: Whoever has received from the divine bounty a large share of temporal blessings, **whether they be external and material, or gifts of the mind, **has received them for the purpose of using them for the perfecting of his own nature, and, at the same time, that he may employ them, as the steward of God’s providence, for the benefit of others. “He that hath a talent,” said St. Gregory the Great, “let him see that he hide it not; he that hath abundance, let him quicken himself to mercy and generosity; he that hath art and skill, let him do his best to share the use and the utility hereof with his neighbor.”(17)
I am highlighting this because in our society we are very quick to force people to turn over their excess land and money but we never ask, much less force, people to share of their other talents or blessings.
 
Do you also then not support restrictions on gay marriage? How about abortion laws?

I think though you pretty much missed the point. It is not about “more mine than theirs”. ** If we choose to live a life where we give everyone only what they deserve, than we can probably expect something very similar when we ask for God’s mercy and compassion.**
Yes, this is true.

But if we have no choice in the matter, if it is taken from us willy nilly because some politician in DC figures we have “enough,” and gives it out willy nilly so he can get the votes he needs to stay in his cushy job to people he knows nothing about, then it’s no longer a matter of our giving, is it? I mean, (assuming you are Canadian, which I think you are), do you consider that portion of your taxes which go to health care to be charity?
 
Except there are people on this forum who are thinking money they haven’t even worked for is theirs. I’m pretty sure the money in my paycheck belongs to me much more than it belongs to anyone else.

And as for the dying child. That is something the local parish should be taking care of. Not the state. I can feel sorry for the kid without wanting to allow the state the power to determine who deserves the money I work for. I’ve given money at school and parish collections for local children.

Finally we are talking LEGAL. This has nothing to do with a religious or Christian duty. It has to do with constitutional laws.
Then you are for doing away with all foreign wars right? After all they are unconstitutional. The fact of the matter is The constitution is null and void by way of the 1933 War Powers act. Having the dollar printed by the Federal Reserve and not backed by silver or gold is unconstitutional. Conservatrives pick and choose where they follow the constitution as much as the liberals.
 
Then you are for doing away with all foreign wars right? After all they are unconstitutional.
Foreign wars are not unConstitutional.

From the Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to… provide for the common defence…

From Article 1, Section 8: The Congress shall have power… To declare war, …

From Article 2, Sect. 2: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the army and navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States…
The fact of the matter is The constitution is null and void by way of the 1933 War Powers act.
Could you link to a source for this, as it seems to have another name, along with being a sort of updating of a previous law from WW1?
Having the dollar printed by the Federal Reserve and not backed by silver or gold is unconstitutional. Conservatrives pick and choose where they follow the constitution as much as the liberals.
From Article 1, Section 8: The Congress shall have power… To coin money, regulate the value thereof…

No mention of the money needing to be backed by the Federal Reserve.
 
Do you also then not support restrictions on gay marriage? How about abortion laws?

I think though you pretty much missed the point. It is not about “more mine than theirs”. If we choose to live a life where we give everyone only what they deserve, than we can probably expect something very similar when we ask for God’s mercy and compassion.
Abortion is different because it is about rights, not morals. The babies have the right to life.

We’re not talking about me choosing to give or not to give people more than than they deserve. We’re talking about letting the government decide that I don’t deserve to keep the money I make because I make too much and that someone else deserves to have that “surplus” because they don’t make enough.

There is a difference between the government mandating how much of my paycheck belongs to others and me deciding what I should give to help others. At no point have I advocated not giving to charity.
 
The low paid are disadvantaged when it comes to bargaining for wages because of the cost of relocating. Aside from that there is a recession, even with a lack of jobs to go around, people here will still oppose welfare (of any kind) because ultimately it’s about “my money*”…* as per usual. For those with that opinion, the circumstances just don’t matter as welfare involves theft. So why bother arguing further about this? (oh, and I’m employed)
 
So if you woke up tomorrow to find your car stolen, or came home to find your home emptied, you wouldn’t mind? and would not press charges?
Well, one could certainly make a reasonable argument as a Christian that it would not be totally wrong to do this. However, it would seem to encourage other kinds of injustice that are pretty basic, and that would be a problem. I don’t complain about my taxes though, although I would always be happy to see them used in the most effective way possible that is morally sound.

Re some other points that have been made - Honestly, I don’t give a fig about the American constitution, not only doesn’t it have anything to do with me, it is a fallible human document. I have no reason to think that it’s “separation of powers” is the best model theoretically or practically, and plenty of reason to think it might not be. I wouldn’t use the Canadian constitution that way either, or any other secular laws.

If you are trying to figure out the right thing to do or way to live as a Christian or Catholic, such documents have almost no standing. Why would anyone think it could possibly be helpful in understanding what we are required to do as Christians? And if it impedes that, then the problem is with it, not the Christian requirements.
 
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