Health Care

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You know, if people already getting assistance didn’t abuse it so much, maybe people wouldn’t be as against it. Do you have any idea what kind of stuff people buy using my tax money? Dog food (I want a pet, but I can’t afford it, but I have to pay for someone else’s pet?), cherry cordials, paintbrushes, impluse buy zone cheetos (especially when they bought the rest of their stuff in cash, they don’t seem to need it), ice cream, soda, gum, and they try to buy alcohol.

Maybe if they didn’t abuse our money already they’d have money for health care. Plus, if they waste our money when it’s this limited, imagine how much we’ll waste when every purchase is a minimum of around $100 dollars?

I don’t think something that requires imposing on others can be a right. Our other right are there to protect us from others.
 
Langdell said:
You can’t have a right without a duty. They are two sides of the same coin.
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What you say seems logical at first, but it’s false. Take for instance, our duty to give alms to the poor, and make no mistake we have this duty. Would you say the poor person has a right to your money? Well of course they don’t have a right to it, if they did they’d be well with in their rights to relieve you of all your money. You do however have a duty to offer alms, to assist them, to allow them a meal.
Arwen037 said:
You know, if people already getting assistance didn’t abuse it so much, maybe people wouldn’t be as against it. Do you have any idea what kind of stuff people buy using my tax money? Dog food (I want a pet, but I can’t afford it, but I have to pay for someone else’s pet?), cherry cordials, paintbrushes, impluse buy zone cheetos (especially when they bought the rest of their stuff in cash, they don’t seem to need it), ice cream, soda, gum, and they try to buy alcohol.

Maybe if they didn’t abuse our money already they’d have money for health care. Plus, if they waste our money when it’s this limited, imagine how much we’ll waste when every purchase is a minimum of around $100 dollars?

I don’t think something that requires imposing on others can be a right. Our other right are there to protect us from others.
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I’m sorry but I take issue with the argument that some will (and do) abuse the systems in place, to justify dening the least of us access to health care. This is a false argument, if some take advantage of the system then it is up to us to try and ensure the system is not abused. It is wrong, however to say “well there’s the possiblity of evil, so we shouldn’t act”, that’s just being obstiant.
 
Arwen037 said:
You know, if people already getting assistance didn’t abuse it so much, maybe people wouldn’t be as against it. Do you have any idea what kind of stuff people buy using my tax money? Dog food (I want a pet, but I can’t afford it, but I have to pay for someone else’s pet?), cherry cordials, paintbrushes, impluse buy zone cheetos (especially when they bought the rest of their stuff in cash, they don’t seem to need it), ice cream, soda, gum, and they try to buy alcohol.

Maybe if they didn’t abuse our money already they’d have money for health care. Plus, if they waste our money when it’s this limited, imagine how much we’ll waste when every purchase is a minimum of around $100 dollars?

I don’t think something that requires imposing on others can be a right. Our other right are there to protect us from others.
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MY my my my my , it's our tax money if you haven't forgot.
 
Not just some, lots abuse. And before we take more, we need to fix the systems already in place. If we fix the system (which should include things like picking up trash if you’re on welfare, it shouldn’t be free money and not letting people on welfare buy soda and ice cream so they don’t get healthcare problems from being fat) then maybe we won’t have to take money to provide them healthcare. They’ll be in better health, and maybe if they don’t like having to pick up trash they’ll actually find a job. Doing a job you hate is a big motivator to find a better job.

Yes, it is my money, not yours. I think that gives me a say in how it is used. I don’t think it should be used to pay for people who bring woe on themselves. It shouldn’t be used to help people get fat and then used to take care of their health problems because they’re fat. It shouldn’t be used so people can go to the doctor every time their nose gets a little runny. It shouldn’t be there for people to think “oh well, I have free health care anyway.” People need to take responsibility for themselves. Legally it is not my responsibility. Yes, we have a Christian duty to help others. That doesn’t mean enabling a life of sloth. Sometimes love is tough. If your kids blows all his money on a big screen TV and now he needs food, are you going to give him more money, or tell him to sell the TV and buy himself the food he needs?
 
Well, what is a right? It is essentially something we are entitled to as a member of some sort of class. So, if I were a member of a political party, I would likely have a “right” to vote for the leader of the party.

There are similar rights in a state - as a member of a state, one is entitled to certian rights. Since the state is run and represented by government, usually the practical responsibility for maintaining these types of rights falls in some way, to them, though individual citizens also have obligations on them as a result.

More complicated are what are called human rights. THey are based upon our membership in the human species, in our humanity. They relate closely to what human nature iis, our inherent dignity as human beings. Unlike other kinds of rights they are often described as “inalienable” because they derive from something we cannot change or give up - even when we try to.

In Biblical and Christian terms, we don’t see these things described so much as rights. Rather, they are described as duties we owe towards each other. So to see what count as inherent human rights, according to God, we really need to look carefully at what our duties as Christians are.

As for health care - if we look at it as an issue of state-given rights only, than it certainly depends on the state. I do not know if it could be considered a right according to the various documents and traditions of the USA. Here in Canada is is undoubtedly considered a state-given right, and so we the citizens pay for it and the government delivers it.

As far as human rights - I think we are obligated to provide this kind of care to any who need it. Is this always best done by the state? Not necessarily, but in places where the state has no hand in it it can be hard to ensure it is delivered to all. As well, one could argue that the state has an obligation to deal with any human right it recognizes, and be sure that it is given to all of it’s citizens in a fair way.
 
The Healthcare Bill is not about expansion of coverage, quality of care, or lowering of cost because it will do none of those things. It is about the redistribution of wealth, creating a new segment of society which becomes relient on the dole (the middle class), and therefore creates an eternal power hold for the democrat party, which at this point is being led by the statists.

It’s very noble to talk in lofty idealogical language about the “right” to healthcare, housing, education, etc., but someone still has to pay for it. Do you realize that even if the gov confiscated all of the wealth of the “rich” in this country, it still would’nt be enough to pay for this monstrocity? The money is going to come from borrowing (China). How long would any of our households exist in such a situation? Eventually you can’t bring enough in to even pay the interest on your debt. What then? Would the Bishops and the social justice crowd have the country bankrupted over health care? Then no one gets any.

It is a fact that every time taxes are lowered, revenue to the gov goes up. When taxes are raised, revenue goes down. The reason for this is that when you lower taxes, allow people to keep more of their money, they spend it or invest it. This leads to the need for more goods and services. Production increases, companies hire more workers, the tax base increases, so revenue goes up.

The current plans of this administration, are going to stifle growth, continue to contribute to unemployment, narrow the tax base, therefore, take in less revenue. All the while increasing spending. Where is the money going to come from?
 
Arwen037 said:
Not just some, lots abuse. And before we take more, we need to fix the systems already in place. If we fix the system (which should include things like picking up trash if you’re on welfare, it shouldn’t be free money and not letting people on welfare buy soda and ice cream so they don’t get healthcare problems from being fat) then maybe we won’t have to take money to provide them healthcare. They’ll be in better health, and maybe if they don’t like having to pick up trash they’ll actually find a job. Doing a job you hate is a big motivator to find a better job.

Yes, it is my money, not yours. I think that gives me a say in how it is used. I don’t think it should be used to pay for people who bring woe on themselves. It shouldn’t be used to help people get fat and then used to take care of their health problems because they’re fat. It shouldn’t be used so people can go to the doctor every time their nose gets a little runny. It shouldn’t be there for people to think “oh well, I have free health care anyway.” People need to take responsibility for themselves. Legally it is not my responsibility. Yes, we have a Christian duty to help others. That doesn’t mean enabling a life of sloth. Sometimes love is tough. If your kids blows all his money on a big screen TV and now he needs food, are you going to give him more money, or tell him to sell the TV and buy himself the food he needs?
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Do you live in a barn or something? The last I checked we are in a depression? Yes I am a bit over weight despite eating 1300 to 1500 calories a day. A normal human is supposed to have 2000 a day. I have no weight connected health problems. Id got kidneystones when I was near 200 pounds and got my first when I was 125 pounds. By the way the only group of food I can freely eat from to assure not getting the oxalate that causes my stones is meat!. Iwth vegies I have to play jump rope and watch what I eat better than a hawk… I spend lots of hours applying and dropping off resumes. Im not going to risk more ueccesary kidneystones because I know I have healthcare, The pain from them leaves in the dust any childbirth you might ever go through in your future. By the way, my tv is almost 20 years old, I highly doubt it would bring in enough money to be worthwhile. I’m holding onto it. it helps keep me warned of severe weather, which is my responsebility to know about to keep my household safe.
 
Are you really that slow that you can’t apply the situation appropriately? I see people who use EBT. Almost all of them buy many liters of soda. Do you think they are really taking in less than 2000cal/day? They don’t buy any fruits or vegetables. And TVs aren’t the only extraneous thing people buy. I’m sorry if it sounds harsh, but you should eliminate all non-essentials from your life before demanding money from others.

Just because you may not completely abuse the system doesn’t mean that that is how everyone is. You have to look at averages and the majority. And in my experience VERY few people don’t abuse it.
 
Arwen037 said:
Are you really that slow that you can’t apply the situation appropriately? I see people who use EBT. Almost all of them buy many liters of soda. Do you think they are really taking in less than 2000cal/day? They don’t buy any fruits or vegetables. And TVs aren’t the only extraneous thing people buy. I’m sorry if it sounds harsh, but you should eliminate all non-essentials from your life before demanding money from others.

Just because you may not completely abuse the system doesn’t mean that that is how everyone is. You have to look at averages and the majority. And in my experience VERY few people don’t abuse it.
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Did I mention My tv is almost 20 years old? It was a weddig girft by the way, when things were better. Im not giving away gifts from loved ones. Did you check the econemy lately?. Its in a severe recession mainly because of banking speculation and energy taking too much out of it. Here in Michigan its in a severe depresession because both Democrats and Republics think somehow manufacturing is goin g to make a comeback. Save your lectures for better economic times I don’t need to hear it. If everyone hunkered down and just did what they needed to keep the heart pumping like you think they should our Nation would go further into depression from many industies that deal in what YOU call unneccesary would go bellyup. You are riding the gravytrain, quit sniveling.
 
Langdell said:
You can’t have a right without a duty. They are two sides of the same coin.

So, if receiving healthcare is a right, who has the duty to supply it?

If the answer is “society” or “the government,” then society or the government has to come up with the resources to fulfill the duty. Nowadays, they come up with resources by taxing people.

So, by saying that society or the government has the duty to supply healthcare, people are saying that everyone who makes enough money to be taxed has the duty, enforceable by law, to pay money to the goverment so that the government can buy healthcare for people whether they want it or not, and whether the people being taxed want to pay for it or not.

In other words, when someone says “we” have a duty to supply healthcare, what s/he is often saying is “you” have a duty to supply healthcare, and the government should be empowered to force you to fulfill that duty.

I think it’s morally wrong to force other people to make the same types of charitable donations that I want to make.
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I have the right to keep and bear arms, I have the right to own major corporation, I have the right to date a super model. Does the government/society have the duty to fund them also?
 
royal_archer said:
I have the right to keep and bear arms, I have the right to own major corporation, I have the right to date a super model. Does the government/society have the duty to fund them also?
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They are not not needs like you say so many should have no more than.
 
crazzeto said:
But we should, of course always be charitable to those whom are on the streets and have little other recourse. To turn our backs on them, is to turn our backs on God.
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charity is giving your own money voluntarily that is a far cry from a government agency taking money at gun point and redistributing it in order to buy votes for politicians.
 
crazzeto said:
I’m sorry but I take issue with the argument that some will (and do) abuse the systems in place, to justify dening the least of us access to health care. This is a false argument, if some take advantage of the system then it is up to us to try and ensure the system is not abused. It is wrong, however to say “well there’s the possiblity of evil, so we shouldn’t act”, that’s just being obstiant.
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The best way to prevent fraud and to ensure it gets to the true needy is to give the money directly to those who need it with out a government middle man.
 
Texan77 said:
Is Health Care a right?
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A right is something the government defends, not something the government provides.

We as citizens also have a right to bear arms, free speach, the press, religion, etc. none of these are funded by the government. Duty to help is a moral issue, not a government issue. we as individuals have a personal duty to help others through charity but this duty does not give us the right to take from others. All of the government run health car options being proposed are based on forceful redistribution of wealth. This forceful taking is the fatal flaw of the proposed government run health care plans.
 
aspawloski4th said:
Did I mention My tv is almost 20 years old? It was a weddig girft by the way, when things were better. Im not giving away gifts from loved ones. Did you check the econemy lately?. Its in a severe recession mainly because of banking speculation and energy taking too much out of it. Here in Michigan its in a severe depresession because both Democrats and Republics think somehow manufacturing is goin g to make a comeback. Save your lectures for better economic times I don’t need to hear it. If everyone hunkered down and just did what they needed to keep the heart pumping like you think they should our Nation would go further into depression from many industies that deal in what YOU call unneccesary would go bellyup. You are riding the gravytrain, quit sniveling.
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Someone must have spoiled you as a child. You think you should be given everything you want. That’s not the way life works. Why do you think I’m riding the gravy train? I’m not sniveling. You are. I’m defending my right to decide what is done with my money. I don’t care if your TV is 20 years old. I got my TV used as a b-day present. I’m using my dad’s old VHS player because I could get it for free. The only reason I have anything to watch on my TV is because my apartment includes it in the rent. And you want to take away the money others could use to stimulate the economy and give it to you so YOU can stimulate the economy. You aren’t willing to sacrifice a TV, but everyone else is supposed to give up what they want to help you. Why not just leave their money with them in the first place? And I don’t think we should change the entire health care system because of a temporary recession. And apparently you do need to hear it.

I’m not saying everyone should rid all non-essentials from their life, just those who can’t afford it. If you are demanding money, then you better not be wasting any money on non-essentials.
 
Arwen037 said:
Someone must have spoiled you as a child. You think you should be given everything you want. That’s not the way life works. Why do you think I’m riding the gravy train? I’m not sniveling. You are. I’m defending my right to decide what is done with my money. I don’t care if your TV is 20 years old. I got my TV used as a b-day present. I’m using my dad’s old VHS player because I could get it for free. The only reason I have anything to watch on my TV is because my apartment includes it in the rent. And you want to take away the money others could use to stimulate the economy and give it to you so YOU can stimulate the economy. You aren’t willing to sacrifice a TV, but everyone else is supposed to give up what they want to help you. Why not just leave their money with them in the first place? And I don’t think we should change the entire health care system because of a temporary recession. And apparently you do need to hear it.

I’m not saying everyone should rid all non-essentials from their life, just those who can’t afford it. If you are demanding money, then you better not be wasting any money on non-essentials.
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Hmmm, I laugh at that statement spoiled as a child. I’m the oldest of 8. I was free babysitting, something my other siblings never had to do. I was told to set the example for the younger siblings, when I asked who my example was I was belted a good one for merely talking back. All through high school, I had to either tend to a garden or chop/split firewood, before homework which suffered because the multitasking explaoited my learning disabilities. I didnt get a car till I was 19, because I had to buy it and insure it myself, without help, while paying 80 dollar aweek room and board, this was back in the 1980s by the way. A good thing I got my car when I did , I had to drive myself to the doctor around my 20th birthday because I had severe pneumonia, If I didn’t have a car yet I’d likely be dead now. Don’t tell me about the hard life young lady, I have more battle scars than you could ever imagine on me. Who made you the final arbritor of whats essential and not? What give you the idea what is essential to one is the same for all? Having been in a school for the emotionally impaired for 9 of my years of schooling I know that not everyones needs are the same. This is 2009 and not 1009. We realizie there are other needs than the one’s that keep the heart pumping. Us enlighteened people realize that living death is worse than dying. I would love to have a good job. I see things everyday I’d love to have and can truely appreciate if I did. My being unemployed has no connection whatsoever to wanting to work, and like those who think like you had better start understanding that.
 
Arwen037 said:
Someone must have spoiled you as a child. You think you should be given everything you want. That’s not the way life works. Why do you think I’m riding the gravy train? I’m not sniveling. You are. I’m defending my right to decide what is done with my money. I don’t care if your TV is 20 years old. I got my TV used as a b-day present. I’m using my dad’s old VHS player because I could get it for free. The only reason I have anything to watch on my TV is because my apartment includes it in the rent. And you want to take away the money others could use to stimulate the economy and give it to you so YOU can stimulate the economy. You aren’t willing to sacrifice a TV, but everyone else is supposed to give up what they want to help you. Why not just leave their money with them in the first place? And I don’t think we should change the entire health care system because of a temporary recession. And apparently you do need to hear it.

I’m not saying everyone should rid all non-essentials from their life, just those who can’t afford it. If you are demanding money, then you better not be wasting any money on non-essentials.
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Bottom line is we have people who are consuming with out producing and they are trying to fix that by preventing those who produce from consuming.
 
aspawloski4th said:
Not anymore than what you have been saying the rest of us need and don’t need.
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I am not saying what you need or do not neeed. I have only said that if you need something you have to earn it. Need (of health car or othe items) in itself does not justify taking from others.
 
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