Health Care

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You are correct. There are many ways of setting up a health care system. What is trying to be instituted here is breaking down the good parts of the system to be sure everyone has the same minimal care. We can certainly find a way to help those who truly need help without dismantleing the whole system. And it will not be more effective. Cheaper does not mean better.
I agree that cheaper doesn’t mean better, but who wants to pay more for something worse? If you look at actual cost for service, rates in the US are much higher than elsewhere, whether you are talking about the cost being born by individuals, insurance, or government…
 
I agree that cheaper doesn’t mean better, but who wants to pay more for something worse? If you look at actual cost for service, rates in the US are much higher than elsewhere, whether you are talking about the cost being born by individuals, insurance, or government…
There are still ways to bring costs down, but our learned Democrats in Congress will not consider any of them. They are working, slowly but surely, toward a single payer system.
 
You ecnore most of what i said. since you havent mowed a lawn on a 100 degreeday you dont know what real work is.Those CEo 's that should be hung are guilty of the crime of accesory to murder, so I actuall think hanging is too good for them. Yess I am a capital punishment advocate. The church is officially not against captial punishement All those people you mmentioned would get their weekly paycheck thru a system where the cost is more fairly spread out rather than a system that only allows the rich to get treated. So are you saying healthcare is a privalege? Under your system the rich live, the poor and middle clas die. The abled body live the disabled die. If You had your way I’d be a widower, shame shame.
Working in 100 degree weather doesn’t excuse theft. Besides, plenty of people have to work that much. My mom worked cleaning apartments from the time she was able. She baled hay in 100 degree weather. She didn’t have to use a push mower to mow in the 100+ weather because with full out farms, you’d spend every hour of every day mowing and never be caught up. I do have to rake an acre of land of leaves in 90 degree weather. You have martyr syndrome, you think you’ve been picked on your whole life, so now everyone should make life easy for you. Tough luck, no one feels sorry for you. We all have problems in our lives, and your’s really aren’t that sad.

Fine, you file a complaint against them form accessory to murder. Tell me how long it takes everyone to laugh you out of the room. Oh, and you might want to re-read the Church’s position on capital punishment. They only allow for it in cases where society cannot be protected by locking up the guilty. In the US they are against it, because we have a legal system, and prisons, where we can keep the guilty for life is necessary. They allow for it in countries where there is no prison system. You can’t pick and choose.

Under my system people have to work. There is no reason someone who works hard should have to give up their money to provide for those who don’t. But people wouldn’t feel like they already have to give up enough helping people who don’t deserve it and would give more to charities who could them help those who actually need it. All live. Under your system the rich and the middle class die, and the poor live. Then who’s going to pay for them?

Yes, legally health care is a privilege given to those who work to earn money, or who are given help by others. And anyone who wants to quote “whatever you did to the least of mine, you did to me” that doesn’t mean it has to be done through the government. There are better ways.

This current plan is going to destroy health care. Read the papers people. The democrats are hiding things. Like the fact they are going to help raise money for this by taxing medical equipment manufacturers (life insulin pumps). Most of those are smaller companies. Then they are going to have to raise the price to be able to afford to make them. Does that sound like making health care more affordable to you?
 
Working in 100 degree weather doesn’t excuse theft. Besides, plenty of people have to work that much. My mom worked cleaning apartments from the time she was able. She baled hay in 100 degree weather. She didn’t have to use a push mower to mow in the 100+ weather because with full out farms, you’d spend every hour of every day mowing and never be caught up. I do have to rake an acre of land of leaves in 90 degree weather. You have martyr syndrome, you think you’ve been picked on your whole life, so now everyone should make life easy for you. Tough luck, no one feels sorry for you. We all have problems in our lives, and your’s really aren’t that sad.

Fine, you file a complaint against them form accessory to murder. Tell me how long it takes everyone to laugh you out of the room. Oh, and you might want to re-read the Church’s position on capital punishment. They only allow for it in cases where society cannot be protected by locking up the guilty. In the US they are against it, because we have a legal system, and prisons, where we can keep the guilty for life is necessary. They allow for it in countries where there is no prison system. You can’t pick and choose.

Under my system people have to work. There is no reason someone who works hard should have to give up their money to provide for those who don’t. But people wouldn’t feel like they already have to give up enough helping people who don’t deserve it and would give more to charities who could them help those who actually need it. All live. Under your system the rich and the middle class die, and the poor live. Then who’s going to pay for them?

Yes, legally health care is a privilege given to those who work to earn money, or who are given help by others. And anyone who wants to quote “whatever you did to the least of mine, you did to me” that doesn’t mean it has to be done through the government. There are better ways.

This current plan is going to destroy health care. Read the papers people. The democrats are hiding things. Like the fact they are going to help raise money for this by taxing medical equipment manufacturers (life insulin pumps). Most of those are smaller companies. Then they are going to have to raise the price to be able to afford to make them. Does that sound like making health care more affordable to you?
You are speaking of rumors and there is not fianl conference bill yet. What I mentioned in my past isn’t even 2% of it. In all actuality because of bullying I could easily be dead right now. Oh yes on that 100 degree day after mowing the lawn I splited wood. I could bore you with the fact not once did someone ohtermyself get me up for school. The purpose to these story of my history is to show that I am not spoiled! It gets to be a sensitive issue with me, because many of the kids I wenbt to school with in most of my classes teased the h_ll out of me for being part of a so backward family ,even beated up for it. Tell tell me about tough times.
Ultimately I’m interested in a healthsystem where doctors ONLY run it, and bean counters are relegated to counting the beans and otherwise have to keep their trap shut. I have several CPA’s in my family who will tell you first hand that beancounters make terrible business managers. What we have right now is something imperfact that atleast will take us out of the current failure. Paul Havrvey always said self rule will only work woth self restraint. Currently the health insurance industry has absolutely no self restraint whatsoever, so their self rule is about to be taken away as deserved. You talk about you system and your obssession where people have to work, that doesn’t account for ecconomic depression like now, what about the old and infirm, what about the young lady I take to church every sunday who had severe cerebral pulsy( she cant waork). What about my late maternam grandmother who had to retire early( fdrom a job she loved by the way) for heart adn lung problems( she never smoked), what about the other grandmother who has altzheimers? You seem to feel picked on. Look at the pot calling the kettle black! Oh yes what about my Paranoin , schzizophrenic manic depressive uncle? if you expect him to go to work you are a couple tacos short a comboplate, he is violent when off his meds. Get in the real world.
 
I think that would be overstatement for two reasons. 1) In this country, the borders are protected in only one direction. All other things equal, we’re free to leave whenever we choose to do so; our (or, more correctly, “Ceasar’s”) money, however, is not). 2) The plight of the Jewish tax collectors in 1st centrury Judea is an interesting case. However, unlike the IRS, they were the agents of a foreign occupier, not the legitimate agent of a duly constituted government.

Peace,
O’Malley
Since you mentioned “duly constituted” Where in the constitution is the government empowered to provide health care? Instead it requires equal protection under the law and prohibits the governemnt from taking from the citizens with out just compensation. Wealth redistribution schemes violate both of these.

Those who approve of socialism should be the ones moving to a country more aligned with their views.
 
The tax collectors in the Bible were hated because they paid their own salaries by taking as much as they could from the people, beyond what the state demanded. THis was, in a way, legitimate; it was designed to be how they got their pay; but resulted in rather terrible abuse, and as long as the government, the occupying Romans, got their money, no one cared how the poor were squeezed…
Tax collectors today are also get money by taking as much as they can from the people. They work as the agents of politicians who decide on how much to take base on the maximum they can get with out getting thrown out of office. They do this through discriminatory taxes which consist of taxing those with the smallest political voice per dollar available to take.
Not really the same thing at all as legitimate taxation, especially in a democratic form of government…
The US is a constitutional Republic, not a democracy
As for health care in the US - the form it is in now makes it, in dollars per service terms, among the world’s most expensive, and without being the world’s most effective. And many (most) don’t have a real choice in negotiating with insurance companies, they get what their employer provides, which is as little as they can get away with. Many others have no real access at all…
Still redistributing money does not address the root problem of the cumulative cost of health care instead it further issolates the decision makers from visibility or accoutability for the costs.
There are many other ways of setting up a health care system that is more effective and cheaper than the American one. Lots of places have them.
But only an extreme rare few individuals are willing to move to such countries. Instead we have millions trying to get in here to live with our system.
 
The tax collectors in the Bible were hated because they paid their own salaries by taking as much as they could from the people, beyond what the state demanded. THis was, in a way, legitimate; it was designed to be how they got their pay; but resulted in rather terrible abuse, and as long as the government, the occupying Romans, got their money, no one cared how the poor were squeezed. . . …
This was the practice in early U.S.; though they got a fixed percentage of what they collected. I think at least a few places had it into the middle of the 20th century.

Also in many places the lowest court magistrates, who handled traffic tickets etc, were paid a percentage of the fines they collected. That finally got thrown out in the 50"s.
 
But only an extreme rare few individuals are willing to move to such countries. Instead we have millions trying to get in here to live with our system.
Do you really think that the majority of people who would like to move to the US are from nations with a similar level of security and wealth that also have good health care? I think you will find that people who live in stable, well off countries that have decent health care systems are not rushing to go to the US en masse.
 
Do you really think that the majority of people who would like to move to the US are from nations with a similar level of security and wealth that also have good health care? I think you will find that people who live in stable, well off countries that have decent health care systems are not rushing to go to the US en masse.
but people are choosing to imigrate to the US instead of those countries with government contolled health care.
 
but people are choosing to imigrate to the US instead of those countries with government contolled health care.
THose countries get lots of immigrants too. Although in some cases they allow less immigration. THere are a wide variety of reasons people choose one country over another, the most important often being whether family or an ethnic community already exists there. But the US is not the only Western country with huge numbers looking to get in.
 
THose countries get lots of immigrants too. Although in some cases they allow less immigration. THere are a wide variety of reasons people choose one country over another, the most important often being whether family or an ethnic community already exists there. But the US is not the only Western country with huge numbers looking to get in.
when my ancestors came here they were not looking for hand outs, they were looking for freedom and opportunity. Many of those immigrants today are looking for the same thing. There are many countries who provide socialism why are some so inclined to destroy the country that provides more opportunity and freedom?
 
THose countries get lots of immigrants too. Although in some cases they allow less immigration. THere are a wide variety of reasons people choose one country over another, the most important often being whether family or an ethnic community already exists there. But the US is not the only Western country with huge numbers looking to get in.
One of these days, there will be lots of people wanting to leave European countries. As soon as the very first one starts incorporating Sharia law into its legal code in a significant way, there will be lots of them looking for the door. But the likelihood is that political correctness here will be so advanced by then that they won’t be able to get in.

As the secular materialists gain more and more power in this country, it’s going to get tough for Christians anywhere in the world to find a safe haven.
 
Since you mentioned “duly constituted” Where in the constitution is the government empowered to provide health care? Instead it requires equal protection under the law and prohibits the governemnt from taking from the citizens with out just compensation. Wealth redistribution schemes violate both of these.

Those who approve of socialism should be the ones moving to a country more aligned with their views.
The phrase “duly constituted” does not refer to the particulars of our federal Constitution, it simply means that a sytem of rule is properly made up, formally correct and valid. Each state in our federation of states is also duly constituted, as is each county or parish or however a commonwealth or state decides to sub-divide its governmental authority.

The topic, I think, is do we have a right to health care. This is not a legal but a moral question. Given the forum, the topic by implication may be extended to What is the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding a person’s right to health care? The CCC gives us the answer:

#2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.

Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.

Peace,
O’Malley
 
Yes, help in attainment, not hand over on a silver platter by taking from others. The best way is to provide opportunities. And please don’t tell me there aren’t any jobs. If high schoolers can get jobs, when they are only available part time, then adults with full availability ought to be able to get a job.
 
The phrase “duly constituted” does not refer to the particulars of our federal Constitution, it simply means that a sytem of rule is properly made up, formally correct and valid. Each state in our federation of states is also duly constituted, as is each county or parish or however a commonwealth or state decides to sub-divide its governmental authority.
Our Federal government is duly constituted by the written constitution of the united States. The durrent health care discussion is related to federally controlled health care which is beyond the scope of powers given to the federal government. There have been several suggestions related to each state passing health care program legislation in accordance with the conststitution of those states. This would be a better option in that it would allow people to move to states whose interference with health care was more in line with their desires.

The Federal government does not divide its authority to the states, the States authorize to the Federal government a limmited number of powers.
The topic, I think, is do we have a right to health care. This is not a legal but a moral question.
I agree that it is a moral and personal issue. My only objection is when some wish resort to violent means to acquire money for the sake of buying votes through wealth redistribution.
Given the forum, the topic by implication may be extended to What is the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding a person’s right to health care? The CCC gives us the answer:

#2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.

Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.

Peace,
O’Malley
The CCC also says: 2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

Essentially saying that neither extreme is good. In our society we had a health care system where anyone who is willing to work had access to health care and their was plenty of charity to take care of those who could not work. As of late we have seen the growing emergence of a group of people who are not willing to work who have grown to such numbers that they have skewed the electoral system to their bennefit. this voting block has attempted to dehumanize the working classes into a mere source of revenue for their lifestyle choices. The politicians have gotten these people addicted to the welfare system and are exploiting them for the politicians personal power trips.
 
I recall hearing many years ago that democratic [the system, not the party] believe thsy have a mandate from the people and can do anything except turn a man into a woman.

This arose at the time of Christine Jorgensen, one of the first trans-gender surgeries, quite scandalous at the time. The Danish Parliament believed they could do even that. Now all the legislatures are accept it as a part of their mission.:eek:
 
I recall hearing many years ago that democratic [the system, not the party] believe thsy have a mandate from the people and can do anything except turn a man into a woman.

This arose at the time of Christine Jorgensen, one of the first trans-gender surgeries, quite scandalous at the time. The Danish Parliament believed they could do even that. Now all the legislatures are accept it as a part of their mission.:eek:
Please don’t speak on what you apparently are not well studied in. Thankyou.
 
I recall hearing many years ago that democratic [the system, not the party] believe thsy have a mandate from the people and can do anything except turn a man into a woman.

This arose at the time of Christine Jorgensen, one of the first trans-gender surgeries, quite scandalous at the time. The Danish Parliament believed they could do even that. Now all the legislatures are accept it as a part of their mission.:eek:
Unfortunately many elected officials feel the only limits on their power is what will prevent them or their party from getting reelected. As such, popular opinion does tend to trunp individual rights in their decision making process.
 
Our Federal government is duly constituted by the written constitution of the united States. The durrent health care discussion is related to federally controlled health care which is beyond the scope of powers given to the federal government. There have been several suggestions related to each state passing health care program legislation in accordance with the conststitution of those states. This would be a better option in that it would allow people to move to states whose interference with health care was more in line with their desires.
State regulated health insurance is our present scheme to provide health care. The scheme has benefits and faults. One of the major faults in the state regulated scheme is lack of portability. Your notion that one can simply move to another state is highly problematic in that unless you’re in perfect health, your preexisting conditions, age, or even now lifestyle may become an impediment to acquiring insurance in the new state.
The Federal government does not divide its authority to the states, the States authorize to the Federal government a limmited number of powers.
I didn’t say the federal government divides its authority, rather the states or commonwealths divide theirs.
I agree that it is a moral and personal issue. My only objection is when some wish resort to violent means to acquire money for the sake of buying votes through wealth redistribution.
Where’s the violence? Who is pormotiing such “violence” means?
The CCC also says: 2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

Essentially saying that neither extreme is good. …
I believe while you correctly quote, you misinterpret #2425. The Church has no political theology but it does have a theology of politics. The Church rejects any form of politic in which the dignity of the human person is subject to the state. The community, or state, exists for the sake of the person; not vice versa. For this reason the Church rejects all totalitarianism or statist regimes – there is no such thing as a “moderate” totalitarian state. While she recognizes that all systems are flawed (because the human being is flawed by original sin), she has not rejected “socialism” or “communism” per se only the atheistic versions.

The U.S. is already a socialistic state – check out the level of transfer payments at the Bureau of Economic Analysis; and our religious orders often in communistic communities having taken the vow of personal poverty and some even collective poverty.

Peace,
O’Malley
 
State regulated health insurance is our present scheme to provide health care. The scheme has benefits and faults. One of the major faults in the state regulated scheme is lack of portability. Your notion that one can simply move to another state is highly problematic in that unless you’re in perfect health, your preexisting conditions, age, or even now lifestyle may become an impediment to acquiring insurance in the new state.
This lack of portability is in part due to governemnt regulation. When I said move to another state it was in repsonse to your assertion of states taking a lager role in providing centrally controlled health care. If some states like California or New York provided health care then people could choose to move to those states.
I didn’t say the federal government divides its authority, rather the states or commonwealths divide theirs.
great.
Where’s the violence? Who is pormotiing such “violence” means?
The governemnt and tax collection methods.
I believe while you correctly quote, you misinterpret #2425. The Church has no political theology but it does have a theology of politics. The Church rejects any form of politic in which the dignity of the human person is subject to the state. The community, or state, exists for the sake of the person; not vice versa. For this reason the Church rejects all totalitarianism or statist regimes – there is no such thing as a “moderate” totalitarian state. While she recognizes that all systems are flawed (because the human being is flawed by original sin), she has not rejected “socialism” or “communism” per se only the atheistic versions.
"The Church rejects any form of politic in which the dignity of the human person is subject to the state. " The proposed welfare prorams will subject the person to the state and treat the working class as nothing more than sources of revenue to be exploited by the dependent masses.
The U.S. is already a socialistic state – check out the level of transfer payments at the Bureau of Economic Analysis; and our religious orders often in communistic communities having taken the vow of personal poverty and some even collective poverty.

Peace,
O’Malley
The sad fact our country has addopted socialist traits is not justification to to pursue even worse socialistic programs. Voluntary communal living is a completely differnt story since people willingly accept them.
 
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