Healthcare, and where we go from here

[Charlotte408]

Woke up to find that the healthcare bill was passed last night by a mere 2 votes. ((would love to know how my congressman voted if theres anyway to find that out)). I’m just…confused…worried…

I’m confused because, I dont know exactly WHATS going to change… I just dont understand why we need it for EVERYBODY, even people that can buy their own insurance? I mean, if there is already healthcare for people who cant afford it, ie medi-cal in my state, why are they pushing this nationalized system for everyone? So- is everyone going to have this ‘medi-cal’ type insurance? Who chooses who does and who doesnt? Is there going to be varying degrees of coverage? How can we AFFORD this when were spending soo much money already with the war and what not? I saw that deficit counter and those numbers are moving FAST… When does all this start? Do we all get a letter with a new government card and now we can go to whichever doctor??? I’m confused about the abortion aspect…and the amendment…did it take abortion out of the bill? Can they take THAT amendment out before signing the bill into law???

Are we turning into socialists??? At what point do we say, yes, were freakn socialists??

And I’m worried…worried for my daughter

I dont want her growing up in a world where…idk…I just think that theres value to growing up with a hard work ethic…and…EARNING things for herself…I mean, yes, everyone should have healthcare…it should be VERY affordable…but…idk…

your thoughts n comments…

 

[AntiTheist]

I just dont understand why we need it for EVERYBODY, even people that can buy their own insurance?

This healthcare bill does not force everyone into a government plan – very far from it.

If you have insurance already, you’ll keep it.
If you don’t have insurance, you’ll be required to purchase it.
If you can’t afford insurance, you’ll either be given assistance to buy it or be provided (in some states) with an “option” to buy into a low-cost government plan.
No insurance company will be allowed to reject you for a “pre-existing condition.”

This bill is so far from socialism (and so far from real reform, in my opinion) that it’s a joke to suggest otherwise.

Oh, and it doesn’t go into effect until 2013. Some reform…

 

[Charlotte408]

This healthcare bill does not force everyone into a government plan – very far from it.

If you have insurance already, you’ll keep it.
If you don’t have insurance, you’ll be required to purchase it.
If you can’t afford insurance, you’ll either be given assistance to buy it or be provided (in some states) with an “option” to buy into a low-cost government plan.
No insurance company will be allowed to reject you for a “pre-existing condition.”

This bill is so far from socialism (and so far from real reform, in my opinion) that it’s a joke to suggest otherwise.

Oh, and it doesn’t go into effect until 2013. Some reform…

Uh- or WHAT?

or what? I’m REQUIRED to purchase insurance? From whom, exactly? How nice they are entitled to my hard earned money…I have a news flash for you, and whoever else honey -I’m a single mother living from paycheck to paycheck…sometimes I barely make rent, but the lights are on and food’s in the fridge and I’m content taking my kid to the park. I’m not playing I’ve gone a month easy with absolutely NO money…so if you think they can squeeze ANY kinda monthly payment outta me they’re trippin…

And no, I DONT have insurance. But I’m not going to sell out my country and expect everyone else to have to pay for my insurance when its my fault I’m in the situation I’m in. But I’m doing the RIGHT thing, going to school and getting an education so I can get a better job…

IMO, Yes, healthcare should be a lot more affordable than it is now. Maybe, in the ballpark of $20 a person or so…so you have to pay for it, but its VERY affordable and even those who work minimum wage jobs should be able to afford it. There has to be SOME sort of work ethic…responsiblity for yourself…
And children, yes, children should always have healthcare, if the parent cant afford healthcare then the state can pick that up…

But require me to buy healthcare…they cant get me to pay my tickets right now and theyre talkin’ bout healthcare lmbo

 

[AntiTheist]

I’m a single mother living from paycheck to paycheck…sometimes I barely make rent

Then you will most likely be given assistance to help pay for insurance (you’ll still have to pay something), or you will be allowed to buy into a cheaper, government-run plan in some states (you’ll still have to pay something).

Look, if you’re eager to pay for something that is a right in every other civilized country in the world, no one is looking to stop you at all.

I hardly think, however, that it is “sell[ing] out [your] country” to expect the community to provide basic services. For example, the police will help you if you are a victim of crime – free of charge, even if you don’t work at all. Because police are a service provided by the community. Same with the firemen. I don’t see anything at all wrong with allowing sick people to see a doctor.

But again, this bill does not provide “free” healthcare for anyone, so it’s kind of a moot point. At any rate, someone in your position should be happy that at least something is being done about the atrocious state of health care in this country.

 

[grovertheplover]

The overwhelming mistake that I see in the House Bill on Health Care is that no one - and that includes those who “wrote” it - actually know what it will do. 2,000+ pages, no telling how many “surprises” that are included, and a dearth of specifis make this a very dangerous bill.

Yes, America needs health care reform. What it would require is a small series of changes in the existing infrastructure and much less involvement by the federal government. One issue that seems to be totally ignored is that this may be an “illegal” bill. A change of this magnitude and one that mandates a person to buy into a program that may not be necessary (a 25 year old in good shape and a good job without insurance has a very compelling reason to not buy health insurance - right or wrong) is arguable as a government mandate. When a mandate is placed on the shoulders of the taxpayer, there has to be a specific expectation that is met. What is the specific goal of the Health Bill? I don’t know and the bill doesn’t tell me.

What the bill does do is create a huge government beauracracy. From my experience in other government programs - Amtrack, post office, Social Security - the list is as long as you want to make it - the evidence is that private sector programs is much better than the government at most jobs. Other than protecting our borders and national defense, most of the current government progrmas would be much better served in the private sector.

the most important issue of all is that God is totally left out of the bill. By that I mean those of us who are sincere and caring Cathollics don’t have the support from those in the House that we should expect. The best example is House Speaker Pelosi. She is a Catholic in name only. Her long time support of abortion, gay marriage, and a host of anti-Catholic issues is a blot on the faith I hold so dear. Where is the Catholic leadership? Where is the Christian leadership? Money is certainly more powerful than God inside the beltway.

May God Bless and keep each of you safe.

PAX

Tom

 

[RobbyS]

The overwhelming mistake that I see in the House Bill on Health Care is that no one - and that includes those who “wrote” it - actually know what it will do. 2,000+ pages, no telling how many “surprises” that are included, and a dearth of specifis make this a very dangerous bill.

Yes, America needs health care reform. What it would require is a small series of changes in the existing infrastructure and much less involvement by the federal government. One issue that seems to be totally ignored is that this may be an “illegal” bill. A change of this magnitude and one that mandates a person to buy into a program that may not be necessary (a 25 year old in good shape and a good job without insurance has a very compelling reason to not buy health insurance - right or wrong) is arguable as a government mandate. When a mandate is placed on the shoulders of the taxpayer, there has to be a specific expectation that is met. What is the specific goal of the Health Bill? I don’t know and the bill doesn’t tell me.

What the bill does do is create a huge government beauracracy. From my experience in other government programs - Amtrack, post office, Social Security - the list is as long as you want to make it - the evidence is that private sector programs is much better than the government at most jobs. Other than protecting our borders and national defense, most of the current government progrmas would be much better served in the private sector.

the most important issue of all is that God is totally left out of the bill. By that I mean those of us who are sincere and caring Cathollics don’t have the support from those in the House that we should expect. The best example is House Speaker Pelosi. She is a Catholic in name only. Her long time support of abortion, gay marriage, and a host of anti-Catholic issues is a blot on the faith I hold so dear. Where is the Catholic leadership? Where is the Christian leadership? Money is certainly more powerful than God inside the beltway.

May God Bless and keep each of you safe.

PAX

Tom

I think you have it right, especially this:

• What the bill does do is create a huge government beauracracy.

53 NEW AGENCIES!

Obama said he was going to lower unemployment, but he didn’t say it would be through a huge enlargement of the health services. Not doctor, of course, just pencil pushers.

The English national health service is said to be the largest employer in the world We should easily surpass it in size within ten years of the bill’s going into effect.

 

[AntiTheist]

What is the specific goal of the Health Bill? I don’t know and the bill doesn’t tell me.

The goal of the bill is to provide all Americans with health insurance at an affordable cost – so that no one goes bankrupt just for getting sick and that no one gets dropped by an insurance company just for getting sick (these things happen all the time in our current system).

Every other civilized country in the world provides health care to its citizens. The fact that our country does not is ridiculous. I would take the English system any day.

EDIT: Oh, I should add that this bill – if it somehow manages to get passed the Senate – will not give us anything like the English system (that is to say, anything like actual reform). So it’s a moot point.

 

[wabrams]

The goal of the bill is to provide all Americans with health insurance at an affordable cost – so that no one goes bankrupt just for getting sick and that no one gets dropped by an insurance company just for getting sick (these things happen all the time in our current system).

It is also to push us towards a single payer system. Our own president hsa said that he eventually wants single payer.

 

[wabrams]

Another big change will be dropping MediAdvantage, which was signed into law by GWB. This gave affordable Medicare gap coverage to senior citizens w/o losing any of their careinstead of having to buy the AARP’s expensive gap coverage which really didn’t pay out much. Funny how the AARP jumped all over supporting this bill.

 

[Charlotte408]

Then you will most likely be given assistance to help pay for insurance (you’ll still have to pay something), or you will be allowed to buy into a cheaper, government-run plan in some states (you’ll still have to pay something).

Again, there are times when I LITERALLY dont have a dollar to my name…and if I did, I might wish to spend it on … bread or milk??? Whatever I wish to do with my hard earned money is MY choice. So again, I ask, **OR WHAT? **I’d really like to have that question answered.

Look, if you’re eager to pay for something that is a right in every other civilized country in the world, no one is looking to stop you at all.

I hardly think, however, that it is “sell[ing] out [your] country” to expect the community to provide basic services. For example, the police will help you if you are a victim of crime – free of charge, even if you don’t work at all. Because police are a service provided by the community. Same with the firemen. I don’t see anything at all wrong with allowing sick people to see a doctor.

Police services, fire services…cm’on, they are totally needed to keep the country from ANARCHY…if there was no police, there’d be no kind of structure it’ d be crazy…and what i meant by ‘selling out’ is putting your responsiblities onto the shoulders of everyone else, which is what i feel this is doing…i mean, dont get me wrong im no overeducated person who knows the bill inside and out- but i can only assume that for them to be able to provide healthcare for EVERYONE a lot of people are going to have to come out of pocket. (ie. taxes). I personally am VERY VERY low income. you would think i’d be all happy --yeahhhh free pass! tax the rich people, more free stuff for us-- but no, honey, I do believe in the value of hard work, and if** I** was one of those people who worked hard and had money because i did it for myself, I’d be freakin pissed…its not fair to them, and not every poor person is looking for handouts.

Every other civilized country in the world provides health care to its citizens. The fact that our country does not is ridiculous. I would take the English system any day.

Well, feel free to immigrate to another country. Funny how SO many immigrants form other countries are running over here, since they have free healthcare and the governments all care about them so much????? Kinda glad you touched on this because i happen to be a first born american, my family immigrated here from wales. anyways i can tell you firsthand that it seems like a good handout- but rationed healthcare is half @$$ed. I’d love to see some statistics on the overall health of americans compared to britain’s.

 

[Charlotte408]

I’d also like to put a moratorium on the term ‘moot point’…

 

[exoflare]

I’d love to see some statistics on the overall health of americans compared to britain’s.

Though I agree with your sentiments on Obamacare, I’m not sure these sort of statistics would really prove much anyway. To pick one example out of thin air, you could look at the cause of the obesity epidemic in America for what it clearly is (people making the choices to eat too much and/or exercise less), or you could see it as evidence that the government is “failing to protect us” even though in reality the government has absolutely nothing to do with it. You can see how it would be easy to fall into these types of errors, as we’re being slowly conditioned more and more now to see everything through the lens of Statism.

 

[AntiTheist]

Police services, fire services…cm’on, they are totally needed to keep the country from ANARCHY

They’re needed, but they don’t need to be socialized.

How about instead we have each individual pay a police officer when he or she needs services? Or how about each individual has to get special “justice insurance” through his or her workplace? That way, all those lazy bums who don’t want to work won’t get the help of the police (paid for by the sweat of us hard workin’ people). I mean, who really cares if someone beats up a bum? It’s the bum’s fault for being a bum anyway.

Or, we could do the rational thing and decide that we want a society where the community provides certain services for its citizens. Like public libraries, for example. Public libraries aren’t absolutely necessary to maintain civilization, but your tax money goes to support them, even if you can’t read.

Yep, imagine that! People just waltz right in there and get books for free! When will the handouts end…?

I personally am VERY VERY low income. you would think i’d be all happy --yeahhhh free pass! tax the rich people, more free stuff for us

If the government were ever to implement a single-payer system, which it is certainly not going to do any time in the remotely near future, I would expect you to be happy that you are receiving the same rights as every other citizen of every other industrialized nation on the earth.

Goodness, imagine if the people who came up with the idea of public libraries had your attitude. “A free library for all citizens? It’s gonna have to come out of my pocket! Or the pockets of others! How dare you make hard working people give money to something for the community that they’re a part of!”

I do believe in the value of hard work, and if** I** was one of those people who worked hard and had money because i did it for myself, I’d be freakin pissed…its not fair to them, and not every poor person is looking for handouts.

Well, if I were one of those people who had money – whether I had to work hard for it or was just born into it – I would be so thankful for the system that enabled me to earn my vast fortune that I wouldn’t mind contributing a tiny bit more than everyone else so that the community would actually be a better place for people.

But I guess that’s just me. It’s pretty amusing that I – of all people – am the one taking the “moral” position in this discussion.

 

[Wolseley]

Oh, and it doesn’t go into effect until 2013.

Which gives us plenty of time to punish the politicians who wrote this atrocity and to get new politicians to repeal it.

 

[WonderfulLife]

But I guess that’s just me. It’s pretty amusing that I – of all people – am the one taking the “moral” position in this discussion.

You’re the one person who sounds like a Catholic to me, in this thread. I agree. You are taking the moral position.

Don’t give up on religion. There is a Catholic left, you know, and always room there for the truly ethical who possess that most uncommon thing… common sense.

 

[wabrams]

You’re the one person who sounds like a Catholic to me, in this thread. I agree. You are taking the moral position.

Don’t give up on religion. There is a Catholic left, you know, and always room there for the truly ethical who possess that most uncommon thing… common sense.

I didn’t know the Catholic position was to run up massive debt to pay for a program we as a nation cannot afford; from that deficit care WILL be rationed; for the 1st time in the history of the US every citizen will be FORCED to buy something that the government decides is accecptable or not.

 

[AntiTheist]

to run up massive debt to pay for a program we as a nation cannot afford

Health care will cost a tiny fraction of the money that Bush and Obama simply handed over to Wall Street; it will also cost a tiny fraction of the tax cuts, aka handouts, that Bush gave to the richest of the rich. Give me a break with this “cannot afford” nonsense.

care WILL be rationed

Care is rationed now by insurance companies that decide what to cover and that sometimes find excuses to drop people’s coverage when they need it the most.

for the 1st time in the history of the US every citizen will be FORCED to buy something that the government decides is accecptable or not.

Oh no, the gub’ment tellin people what to do! Next thing you know, they’ll be forcing people to buy cars with seatbelts and regulating speed on those commie public highways.

Next thing you know, they won’t even allow people the liberty of driving drunk!

When will the tyranny end…?

 

[wabrams]

Health care will cost a tiny fraction of the money that Bush and Obama simply handed over to Wall Street; it will also cost a tiny fraction of the tax cuts, aka handouts, that Bush gave to the richest of the rich. Give me a break with this “cannot afford” nonsense.

Even the CBO says it is unsustainable. There was a news article last week that said it would take 10 years in tax revenues to pay for 6 years worth of healthcare.

BTW, when you give the “rich” (>250k/yr) a tax break, they have a tendency to invest that extra money in the stock market, buy big ticket items (which yields big $$$ sales tax) and/or reinvest in their companies, which can increase jobs. All of these things boost the economy, which as a trickle down effect.

Even if you taxed the top 5% of income earners (>250k/yr) at 100% of their income, you would still be nowhere near paying for this massive bill.

You do realize that nearly 50% of the people in this country pay no income tax, right? If you get 100% of your income tax back plus more at tax return time, then you haven’t paid any.

Care is rationed now by insurance companies that decide what to cover and that sometimes find excuses to drop people’s coverage when they need it the most.

i don’t think insurance companies should be alllowed to drop coverage and this should be fixed, along w/ pre-existing conditions.

Oh no, the gub’ment tellin people what to do! Next thing you know, they’ll be forcing people to buy cars with seatbelts and regulating speed on those commie public highways.

Next thing you know, they won’t even allow people the liberty of driving drunk!

When will the tyranny end…?

Your sarcasm is childish at best. I don’t agree with seatbelt laws, I think it is a personal choice. Drunk driving is proven to cause deaths of innocent people on the road and as such is a criminal offense. So apples and oranges.

 

[AntiTheist]

There was a news article last week that said it would take 10 years in tax revenues to pay for 6 years worth of healthcare.

And how long is it going to take to pay for the bailouts, the tax cuts, and the unnecessary foreign wars?

Oh, but of course, we simply don’t have the cash to pay a fraction of all of that for health care.

All of these things boost the economy, which as a trickle down effect.

Your corporate masters love people like you, people who vote against their own interest.

The trickle-down effect: let’s make the super-rich even more super-rich, and then a few crumbs will trickle down to everyone else. The rich guy who thought that one up is probably still laughing.

I don’t agree with seatbelt laws, I think it is a personal choice.

Well, that’s all we need to know about you.

 

[wabrams]

And how long is it going to take to pay for the bailouts, the tax cuts, and the unnecessary foreign wars?

SO you want to add more unsustainable debt?

Oh, but of course, we simply don’t have the cash to pay a fraction of all of that for health care. to pay for the bailouts, the tax cuts, and the unnecessary foreign wars?

We don’t pay for tax cuts. The bailouts should have never happened.

Your corporate masters love people like you, people who vote against their own interest.

Ad hominem attack. I would appreciate an apology.

How do you know what my interests are?

The trickle-down effect: let’s make the super-rich even more super-rich, and then a few crumbs will trickle down to everyone else. The rich guy who thought that one up is probably still laughing.

Where did you get your education in economics?

Well, that’s all we need to know about you.

What do you mean?