Healthy contraception ?

[bquinnan]

mikew262:

Each person has to decide what the best answer is. You would hope the Catholic answer and the best answer are the same, but that may not always be true, depending upon the situation.

If one seeks guidance from God, more times than not, the right decision will be made.

So, are you saying that you reject the Church’s claim to teach authoritatively on matters of morality – for example, it’s teaching that contraception is objectively evil?

Otherwise, how could “the best” answer be other than the Church’s teaching?

 

[mikew262]

setter:

By way of observation, you often cloak your statements in vagueness which 1) does nothing to clarify the discussion at hand, 2) often has the effect (whether desired or unintended) of communicating ambiguity.

What you originally said:

What? In my advice to this man, I think I was pretty clear.

 

[mikew262]

bquinnan:

So, are you saying that you reject the Church’s claim to teach authoritatively on matters of morality – for example, it’s teaching that contraception is objectively evil?

Otherwise, how could “the best” answer be other than the Church’s teaching?

In the statement you were quoting I was speaking more in general (thats why I said “depending on the situation”). If you are trying to nail me done on contraception, then fine, depending upon the situation, like medical necessity, I have a big problem saying contraception is objectively evil. Cast the first stone!

BTW, many American Catholics have a problem with the church’s stance on Contraception. One poll suggests that 80% of Catholic child bearing eligible couples have used contraception at one time or another. See link below. Maybe church needs to reevaluate this. Condoms are proven to retard STD and AIDS, thus eliminating alot of needless suffering.

members.aol.com/revising/front.html

 

[jrabs]

mikew262:

BTW, many American Catholics have a problem with the church’s stance on Contraception. One poll suggests that 80% of Catholic child bearing eligible couples have used contraception at one time or another. See link below. Maybe church needs to reevaluate this. Condoms are proven to retard STD and AIDS, thus eliminating alot of needless suffering.

members.aol.com/revising/front.html

hmmm, Mike, what society deems acceptable is not necessarily what the church says is so. The majority does not always make the correct choice.

Your poll data is irrelevant and is off topic.
Polls can be misleading. Data and answers can be manipulated based on how the question was posed, along with any leading dialogue before the polling question was asked.

 

[setter]

If you are trying to nail me done on contraception, then fine, depending upon the situation, like medical necessity, I have a big problem saying contraception is objectively evil. Cast the first stone!

That is an honest and unambiguous statement of what you feel about this established Church teaching.

BTW, many American Catholics have a problem with the church’s stance on Contraception. One poll suggests that 80% of Catholic child bearing eligible couples have used contraception at one time or another. See link below. Maybe church needs to reevaluate this.

The Church has not and never will determine Catholic morality by a raise of hands.

Condoms are proven to retard STD and AIDS, thus eliminating alot of needless suffering.

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means." (CCC)

 

[mikew262]

jrabs:

hmmm, Mike, what society deems acceptable is not necessarily what the church says is so. The majority does not always make the correct choice.

Your poll data is irrelevant and is off topic.
Polls can be misleading. Data and answers can be manipulated based on how the question was posed, along with any leading dialogue before the polling question was asked.

Sometimes the majority does make the right choice.

Poll data is indeed relevant, it shows the confusion and frustration among many Catholics on the contraception question. I don’t what the margin of error is on this poll and neither do you. Perhaps, the results are so troubling to you, that you refuse to believe it.

However, I do agree that we are straying off topic to a degree.

 

[mikew262]

setter:

The Church has not and never will determine Catholic morality by a raise of hands.

You’re right. The Church has never been very responsive to the laity’s (name removed by moderator)uts, and that is sad. At least listen and consider, versus being close minded and inflexible when sound reasoning and common sense dictate otherwise. Non-abortion causing contraception for medical reasons is a perfect example.

 

[setter]

Sometimes the majority does make the right choice.

Poll data is indeed relevant, it shows the confusion and frustration among many Catholics

on the contraception question. I don’t what the margin of error is on this poll and neither do you. Perhaps, the results are so troubling to you, that you refuse to believe it.
“…confusion and frustration …” …we all know who sowed the seeds of these fruits (confusion and frustration) and the harvest it seeks (disarray and ultimately the damnation of souls).

However, I do agree that we are straying off topic to a degree.

Regardless, the underlying premises for your previous stated opinions are becoming more transparent.

 

[setter]

mikew262:

setter:

You’re right. The Church has never been very responsive to the laity’s (name removed by moderator)uts, and that is sad. At least listen and consider, versus being close minded and inflexible when sound reasoning and common sense dictate otherwise. Non-abortion causing contraception for medical reasons is a perfect example.

Funny, I had a dissident priest try to convince me of this exact same thing one time.

BTW – he failed.

 

[johntkd]

mikew262:

Sometimes the majority does make the right choice.

Poll data is indeed relevant, it shows the confusion and frustration among many Catholics on the contraception question. I don’t what the margin of error is on this poll and neither do you. Perhaps, the results are so troubling to you, that you refuse to believe it.

However, I do agree that we are straying off topic to a degree.

The main thing here is none is going to change anyones mind, the title of the thread was
“Healthy Contraception”

I didnt see the title named Catholic approved or unapproved for that matter, sitting at a computer with a canon law book and a Bible does not make you an authority.or to be able to condemn people like Mike or I for how we chose to say something.

Mike I stand with you on this one, I have not been brainwashed to the point that I am willing to sacrifice a member of my family for the sake of saying “gee i followed church teaching”,
if it comes down to the church or My family, My Family wins hands down no contest sorry if that upsets anyone,

I have been wanting to jump in so much on this conversation but held back because its just fueling setter. and I didnt want to add to it, so i chose to make this last statement and plan to make no others about this,

find some canon law telling me i am going to hell for putting my family whom i can touch,hold, and feel first…
I will read it but It will never change my mind
John

 

[setter]

Mike I stand with you on this one, I have not been brainwashed to the point that I am willing to sacrifice a member of my family for the sake of saying “gee i followed church teaching”,

Aren’t you going a bit overboard if you are equating being “brainwashed” with “i followed Church teaching”?

if it comes down to the church or My family, My Family wins hands down no contest sorry if that upsets anyone,

Then you should have an issue with the person of Jesus Christ over his demands for personal discipleship:

“For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Matt. 10:35-38

I have been wanting to jump in so much on this conversation but held back because its just fueling setter.

Thank you, but my tank is already full with zeal for the truth of the gospel.

 

[mikew262]

setter:

“…confusion and frustration …” …we all know who sowed the seeds of these fruits (confusion and frustration) and the harvest it seeks (disarray and ultimately the damnation of souls).

Regardless, the underlying premises for your previous stated opinions are becoming more transparent.

If you are trying to use the “Satan thing” on why many American Catholics are confused and frustrated, that’s baloney. If I misread what you wrote, pls clarify.

It’s obvious you have a problem with anybody that has an opinion that differs from yours. It just nags on you that anybody might have an independent thought outside of Catholic official teachings.

Get over it!

 

[mikew262]

setter:

Aren’t you going a bit overboard if you are equating being “brainwashed” with “i followed Church teaching”?

Then you should have an issue with the person of Jesus Christ over his demands for personal discipleship:

“For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Matt. 10:35-38

Quite a stretch here. Using non-abortion causing contraception to save your wife’s life does not equate to not loving God more than his wife.

The majority of people with common sense feel there is not a choice to be made here. They might be praying “I love you God with all my heart and soul, and thank you for providing man the wisdom to come up with a viable solution to save my wife’s life”.

 

[setter]

If you are trying to use the “Satan thing” on why many American Catholics are confused and frustrated, that’s baloney.

Besides that is what the enemy would have us believe, what good fruit can you conceive of coming from “confusion and frustration” by many Catholics over a consistent moral teaching of the Church that runs counter cultural to today’s prevailing societal ethos?

It’s obvious you have a problem with anybody that has an opinion that differs from yours.

I attempt to present thoughts that are with the mind of the Church when discussing matters of faith and morals. My personal opinion really does not matter when it comes to presenting authoritative Church teaching.

It just nags on you that anybody might have an independent thought outside of Catholic official teachings.

Get over it!

I do not believe that it is God’s will for any Catholic to “Get over it!” in obediance to Catholic official teachings.

 

[mikew262]

setter:

Besides that is what the enemy would have us believe, what good fruit can you conceive of coming from “confusion and frustration” by many Catholics over a consistent moral teaching of the Church that runs counter cultural to today’s prevailing societal ethos?

I attempt to present thoughts that are with the mind of the Church when discussing matters of faith and morals. My personal

opinion really does not matter when it comes to presenting authoritative Church teaching.

I do not believe that it is God’s will for any Catholic to “Get over it!” in obediance to Catholic official teachings.
This “I’m a better Catholic than you and I’m going to show you” bit is growing old. You sound like a very devout Catholic who sticks to the “letter of law” no matter what. Nothing wrong with that. I’m a Catholic, who the vast majority of time, also follows Catholic doctrine. However, depending upon the situation, I may pause, seek God’s guidance, and possibly depart from that doctrine, if warranted. I also may question doctrine that seems unsound, nothing wrong with that IMO.

I’m not going to change your outlook and you are not going to change mine.

Let’s stop this little verbal duel. I’m surprised the moderator hasn’t stepped in already.

 

[setter]

Quite a stretch here. Using non-abortion causing contraception to save your wife’s life does not equate to not loving God more than his wife.

Are you able to provide a Church citation to back up this assertion and show that the Church does indeed allow “medical exceptions” (ex., life threatening risk associated with a future pregnancy) for the use of contraception?

The majority of people with common sense feel there is not a choice to be made here. They might be praying “I love you God with all my heart and soul, and thank you for providing man the wisdom to come up with a viable solution to save my wife’s life”.

There already is a life and soul saving solution – NFP or if prayerfully discerned then marital continence.

 

[pira114]

Seatuck:

No this is incorrect. The Pill or other form of hormonal birth control is allowed if there is a medical condiditon present that it is used to treat. It is not allowed in the condition you describe.

Isn’t that what I was saying? You can use the medication that normaly is used as birth control only if it is being used to treat a condition, and not being used as a contraceptive. In the OP’s situation that would not be the case, but, if a doctor said that if she got pregnant again it would most certainly kill her, then why wouldn’t a tubal be O.K? It’s no different than if she had cancer in that area and removing the cancer would render her infertile. The REASON for the procedure is to save her life. They are not making a decision to just not have babies anymore, they are deciding to prevent her death. I see it as being acceptable in the Church’s teachings.

 

[mike182d]

mikew262:

setter:

You’re right. The Church has never been very responsive to the laity’s (name removed by moderator)uts, and that is sad.

I’ll have to disagree there. When a people who rarely pray, only go to Sunday mass when they have to, don’t know Scripture, don’t understand Catholic teaching in the first place, contracept, abort, divorce, cheat on their spouses, etc., have the audacity to tell Rome how best to follow Christ, I get a little frustrated. I am by no means saying that the majority of the laity is like this, but the Magesterium is comprised of men whose whole lives are devoted to prayer, study of God, prayer, self-denial, prayer, and penance. As a fallible human being, in humility I would much rather trust their judgement than your average Joe down the street.

At least listen and consider, versus being close minded and inflexible when sound reasoning and common sense dictate otherwise. Non-abortion causing contraception for medical reasons is a perfect example.

I have to disagree here too. I have yet to find a compelling reason to change the Church’s teachings on these matters. The theology and reasoning - and even science - is pretty solid. Even if I weren’t a Catholic, I would have a hard time justifying the use of contraception at all.

 

[setter]

pira114:

Isn’t that what I was saying? You can use the medication that normaly is used as birth control only if it is being used to treat a condition, and not being used as a contraceptive. In the OP’s situation that would not be the case, but, if a doctor said that if she got pregnant again it would most certainly kill her, then why wouldn’t a tubal be O.K? It’s no different than if she had cancer in that area and removing the cancer would render her infertile. The REASON for the procedure is to save her life. They are not making a decision to just not have babies anymore, they are deciding to prevent her death. ** I see it as being acceptable in the Church’s teachings**.

The potential health risk asscociated with future pregnancy does not justify direct sterilization (tubal ligation), since the potential [assessed life threatening] health risk does not pose a life threatening risk to the woman and the the assessed risk can be avoided via other means (marital abstinence).

Here are two Church citations which clearly prohibit direct sterilization, because the conditions necessary to satisy the requirements of “Double Effect” are lacking for the OP presented situation:

In response to its query on sterilization, the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s statement of March 13, 1975 replied to the United States National Conference of Catholic Bishops as follows:

“Any sterilization, that is, of its own nature and condition, has the sole immediate effect of rendering the generative faculty incapable of procreation, is to be considered direct sterilization, as the term is understood in the declarations of the pontifical magisterium, especially of Pius XII. Therefore, notwithstanding and subjectivity right intention of those whose actions are prompted by the care of **prevention of physical ** or mental illness which is foreseen or feared as the result of pregnancy, such sterilization remains absolutely forbidden to the doctrine of the church. And indeed the sterilization of the faculty itself is forbidden for an ever graver reason than the sterilization of individual acts, since it induces a state of sterility in the person which is almost always irreversible.”

and……………

**The effort to justify contraceptive sterilization on the grounds of the principle of totality ** (the argument that some hoped for-good-to-come about can justify the deliberate intention to act directly against a good here and now) **was explicitly rejected by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops ** in their July 9, 1980 “Statement on Tubal Ligation”, Hospital Progress, 61.9 (1980), 39.

ewtn.net/library/PROLENC/ENCYC102.HTM

 

[mikew262]

mike182d:

mikew262:

I’ll have to disagree there. When a people who rarely pray, only go to Sunday mass when they have to, don’t know Scripture, don’t understand Catholic teaching in the first place, contracept, abort, divorce, cheat on their spouses, etc., have the audacity to tell Rome how best to follow Christ, I get a little frustrated. I am by no means saying that the majority of the laity is like this, but the Magesterium is comprised of men whose whole lives are devoted to prayer, study of God, prayer, self-denial, prayer, and penance. As a fallible human being, in humility I would much rather trust their judgement than your average Joe down the street.

I have to disagree here too. I have yet to find a compelling reason to change the Church’s teachings on these matters. The theology and reasoning - and even science - is pretty solid. Even if I weren’t a Catholic, I would have a hard time justifying the use of contraception at all.

What are you disagreeing with? You proved my points. The Church doesn’t listen to the laity that much; like you say, the Magesterium is comprised of men who make up/interpret the doctrine. Are they asking for any (name removed by moderator)ut? No, not that I’m aware of. Nobody says they have to change anything based on laity (name removed by moderator)ut, but do they seek the (name removed by moderator)ut and listen to the reasoning given?