Healthy decision making

[Anglewannabe]

Smile and tell them it was a decision preceded by months of looking around and considering your options. If they act like you haven’t said that or like it isn’t true, then ask them point blank if they wish to contradict you.

This is something I often do online, because when people get in an argumentative mood they won’t stop arguing against whatever they want to argue against even when it becomes clear the facts are different than they thought.

That’s healthy. And probably the fruit of a lot of patient self-work.

[qoute]I have also learnt over the years, some people talk things out loud, constantly change their minds and some never make decisions. I understand that different people have different styles and respect that.

Good for you.

People’s antics always starts being a whole different class of problem when it they start to affect you, don’t they?

Yes, that’s awful. It sounds like you have compassion for flip-floppers, so how about you just communicate your wishes to them and expect them to also adjust to you when you’re in something together, rather than only you adjusting to them? Especially if it’s something professional or some other matter of serious responsibility and chaos is detrimental because it prevents the job from being done at all or properly.

Typically crazy social butterfly sort of thing. It’s probably in the personality type. You can’t really change them, but that doesn’t mean you can’t train them a bit when mutual co-operation is required.

Calm down, Angie, get a cold drink. Your brain is working overtime. (And you won’t find the answers. The realization nearly killed me when I made it in my life, but after that I got better. Life’s easier this way.)

They almost certainly didn’t mean to hurt your feelings, let alone offended them. You would gladly forgive an airhead some unintentional, not too big, not permanent physical injury, right? Forgive emotional injury the same way.

Besides, people acting like airheads aren’t really capable of causing offence with what they do. It’s just too unserious. And offences are a matter of serious minds.

I’m afraid I’ve just given you more than you asked for. Sigh. C’est la vie. Here’s a Christmas tree for you, Angie. :christmastree1:

You’re so sweet Chevalier. I love the intellingence behind your posts

 

[Anglewannabe]

, but a committee meeting is like a business meeting. Sometimes it takes multiple meetings to get everyone together, or to arrange getting everyone together. There are personality types that are not necessarily of your choosing, and that can cause conflict. Things with a group often take longer to make happen. (Think dumb group projects in school. )

I can understand that it takes time to get things done. But an emergency meeting was called because according to the chair, a decision needed to be made ASAP and we needed to take a vote on it. How can she the very next day singlehandly decide we would not follow the vote?

 

[Anglewannabe]

Personally, I’m with you - decisions are made by those who show up … and those that don’t need to make it work (or not) for themselves. Maybe that’s why I’ve never done well on committees - I don’t have the knack for doing all the cross-talking, re-deciding, etc. And it always annoyed me.

Thank you for your support

The two choices are obvious, of course - either accept this is the way they work and go along with it or quit and avoid the frustration. One other option that worked for me was to take on one small part of the committee’s mission, come up with my own plan using a minimum of people and being prepared to do 90% of the work myself, run that part while reporting back to and inviting in participation from the rest of the group.

Well, I know that there are subgroups that do work behind the scenes such as setting up at activities, counting cash etc. Every time the chair tells me about all the subcommittees they have and all the ones that need help, I am honest and tell her which ones I would like to help with and which ones I don’t. And nothing happens. A few weeks later she repeats which what is needed and I repeat where I would like to help. I am thinking of telling her directly ‘I would love to help with xyz, can you either give the person in charge my number or give me their number so that we can make plans for me to help’

It is hard for me to understand when I told her on several occasions where I would like to help, instead of setting me up with whoever is in charge, she just keeps repeating where help is needed

Angie

 

[Elena321]

Hi Anglewannabe,

I was going to state which type of friends need to hold a formal meeting to decide what to do for Christmas hangout but now that I see that it is actually a committee business like situation that is totally different

Personally,I also find it difficult to deal with people (in business situations) that have trouble making decisions/moving forward and unfortunately some places just have a culture of this.
They can go back and forth around in circles for months and never actually get anything positive done.
In my view,this is incompetence,poor organisation and sometimes poor leadership too.

Regarding the example you mentioned-I would pick my battles by considering how important this decision really was,how much weight it holds or affects on people etc.
If it’s not that important then it’s good to just move on but if it’s an important decision then I would stick to my guns.

It’s probable that the “leader” didn’t intentionally not value your time,but at the same time it could be a nuisance if this way of leadership was a regular occurrence-its good to be flexible but it’s also good to have direction- so maybe you could volunteer yourself next time for this position?

 

[Lorelei12]

umm…actually it was a type of business meeting. Like I said I used an example

This makes the situation completely different. Your example wasn’t really clear and made it sound like it was a social engagement with friends. If it was, instead, a formal committee meeting, I can understand your frustration- I would be annoyed too. If you still want to be involved with this group, in the future maybe you could consider attending all regularly scheduled meetings but have “other plans” when an emergency meeting comes up.

 

[chevalier]

Thank you for the good word, Angie.

I can understand that it takes time to get things done. But an emergency meeting was called because according to the chair, a decision needed to be made ASAP and we needed to take a vote on it. How can she the very next day singlehandly decide we would not follow the vote?

With a good enough reason and legit need to act fast leaders of informal collegial bodies sometimes get to act a bit unilaterally and outside of proper procedures. It gives them flexibility to get things done in those settings where following proper procedures is not a priority, for example because remaining fair amid a couple of conflicting interests is not necessary or not difficult. Then, of course, there are committee heads that just aren’t very diplomatic… and then, ultimately, committee heads that just aren’t very good at their job.

It is hard for me to understand when I told her on several occasions where I would like to help, instead of setting me up with whoever is in charge, she just keeps repeating where help is needed.

Looks like an authority figure that doesn’t like micro management to me.

There’s also the matter of style. In some societies people consider it more proper to directly tell you what they want you to do, in some others they feel the need to tell people what to do, so they talk about what needs to be done.

As for setting you up etc. — the organizational part of making sure you’re where you’re needed, doing what is needed — it’s quite possible she thinks it’s your job to handle that or would love if it was. Perhaps because she’s already quite overwhelmed and struggles to keep everything under control.

Disorganized managers and people with more organizational responsibilities than ability may not be the norm in business, but they aren’t horribly rare either.

They have some redeeming qualities, for example you may be able to talk to them about the big picture (which is sometimes useful) or get yourself a lot of freedom to act how you see fit. I also tend to make sure they aren’t going to drag me into any sort of mess — if they are clients or bosses that’s likely to mean sending you the wrong files, giving you the wrong deadline, forgetting that some important specific instructions weren’t actually communicated to you, or failing to budget some parts of the job properly. So, unfortunately, one needs to double-check them. And then double-check them again and double-check the double-check, sometimes.

Unfortunately, not all disorganized managers are also laid-back people that are easy to work with. Some are quite demanding and may even act like order ‘Nazis’ in demanding it from others and yet being unable to keep it themselves. Those are… particularly trying people to work with, at least in my experience. Anything remotely resembling a schedule has to be monitored constantly and presumed to be prone to sudden changes and not exactly up to date.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Regarding the example you mentioned-I would pick my battles by considering how important this decision really was,how much weight it holds or affects on people etc.
If it’s not that important then it’s good to just move on but if it’s an important decision then I would stick to my guns.

As for the actual decision, as much as it was an important decision to make, the actual outcome is something I am OK with either way it goes. My beef was asking me to attend an emergency meeting only for the work at the meeting to be scrapped by people the very next day

It’s probable that the “leader” didn’t intentionally not value your time,but at the same time it could be a nuisance if this way of leadership was a regular occurrence-its good to be flexible but it’s also good to have direction- so maybe you could volunteer yourself next time for this position?

I agree the leader probably didn’t do anything intentionally here. However, she does strike me as the type to be so self centered she doesn’t think of anyone but herself and is oblivious as to how she can make others feel.

I would not volunteer myself for her position since I think it is more work than I can take on.

However, there was an email chain and someone else was kind enough to explain to me how things are actually suppose to get done. I suspect this leader kind of just does her own agenda and if I direct my questions to the committee instead of her privately, things will be smoother. What I mean by that is I don’t think this leader can communicate properly what is going on and others can

Angie

 

[EasterJoy]

Group decision-making is healthy when it works out in the end for everyone in the group. If you wanted to say, “you know, it isn’t a good time for me to get together for planning, just give me the time you decide on and if I can come I will and if I can’t, I won’t,” and that works for them, that works.

I somehow doubt, though, that it really took two hours of decision-making work to come to the plan you arrived at. I suspect that your friends can’t just have a twenty-minute conference call to find a time and date that fits all your calendars, but instead have to make a social event out of the planning. In any event, I would hope the alternative time later proposed was at least a time that had been on the table as good for you during this marathon of calendar-consultation you held earlier.

When Barb talked to you, you could have said, “Well, are you saying we can’t get together because Erica can’t be there? Honestly, we talked for two hours; there weren’t a lot of times open. I’d like to get together with you and Cathy, as we originally proposed. If you want Dawn there, great, and if you want Erica there, I’m good with that, but if you’re going to throw out the whole thing the three of us were originally planning because Dawn and Erica can’t be there, I’m going to be a bit put out, especially since I dropped everything I had yesterday so we could find a date to make it happen at a time I could do.”

If the event comes off, yes, it pays to be flexible. If the event never happens because Barb and Cathy tried to include so many friends that a date couldn’t be found that fit the first three of you, then that is a problem.

 

[Allegra]

This sort of situation is annoying. I have a department that I work in with two characters who never show up to meetings where decisions are made but later refuse to participate because they don’t like the decisions that were made. I also have a leader in this group who is dead set on the impossible task of trying to make everyone happy and changes plans abruptly to accommodate these Johnny-come-latelies. There’s no professional way to deal with the situation so I just try not to let it get to me.

 

[mommy_k]

This sort of situation is annoying. I have a department that I work in with two characters who never show up to meetings where decisions are made but later refuse to participate because they don’t like the decisions that were made. I also have a leader in this group who is dead set on the impossible task of trying to make everyone happy and changes plans abruptly to accommodate these Johnny-come-latelies. There’s no professional way to deal with the situation so I just try not to let it get to me.

When any volunteer assignment or commitee starts feeling like a job with all the politics, you have to wonder where the spirit of service is for everyone involved.

That’s what I am reading here too.

 

[Allegra]

When any volunteer assignment or commitee starts feeling like a job with all the politics, you have to wonder where the spirit of service is for everyone involved.

That’s what I am reading here too.

In my case, it IS a job, but it is by far the least important and least fulfilling part of my job. I used to be a lot more invested in this committee, but I’ve come to the realization that despite what we discuss or agree on as a group, the rest of the group rarely follows through. So I’ve given myself permission to not do much to make the group happy and take any decisions made in that group with a grain of salt.

 

[mommy_k]

In my case, it IS a job, but it is by far the least important and least fulfilling part of my job. I used to be a lot more invested in this committee, but I’ve come to the realization that despite what we discuss or agree on as a group, the rest of the group rarely follows through. So I’ve given myself permission to not do much to make the group happy and take any decisions made in that group with a grain of salt.

Yes…I noticed that it was connected to your job.

I think the op’s situation is purely volunteer service, and the good of the service gets lost in all the details. . Taking it with a grain of salt here too would be beneficial…

 

[chevalier]

This sort of situation is annoying. I have a department that I work in with two characters who never show up to meetings where decisions are made but later refuse to participate because they don’t like the decisions that were made. I also have a leader in this group who is dead set on the impossible task of trying to make everyone happy and changes plans abruptly to accommodate these Johnny-come-latelies. There’s no professional way to deal with the situation so I just try not to let it get to me.

Can’t you give them a polite nudge? Small steps, one at a time?

I would probably start from a friendly suggestion that if they don’t like the decisions perhaps they should come to meetings more often, and if they kept dismissing my suggestions I would eventually end up telling them absent voters don’t get complaining rights and eventually that it makes no sense being, largely just in name, on a team or board one doesn’t want to participate in the works of, so perhaps they should find a way to extricate themselves from the duty. Chances are there would be a hostile reaction sooner or later, in which case I guess I’d end up cutting them short, eventually. You need to negate the stagnation and inaertia that enables the situation. Not that you were asking for advice but anyway, just being practical.

I suspect that your friends can’t just have a twenty-minute conference call to find a time and date that fits all your calendars, but instead have to make a social event out of the planning.

Chev’s School of Diplomacy and Social Arts(™) you might as well just state that fact and explain, briefly, your different preference, since it’s not going to change. I sometimes end up telling people I’m happy to be part of the work and the decision-making but I don’t get a kick from the process or the social aspects of it. And sometimes I just take charge briefly to clean the mess (janitorial skills are useful in business; they include Managing Your Manager(™) and Supervising Your Supervisor(™); they are crucial to Not Getting Shafted on Your Shift(™)).

 

[EasterJoy]

Chev’s School of Diplomacy and Social Arts(™) you might as well just state that fact and explain, briefly, your different preference, since it’s not going to change. I sometimes end up telling people I’m happy to be part of the work and the decision-making but I don’t get a kick from the process or the social aspects of it. And sometimes I just take charge briefly to clean the mess (janitorial skills are useful in business; they include Managing Your Manager(™) and Supervising Your Supervisor(™); they are crucial to Not Getting Shafted on Your Shift(™)).

When women friends get together, it usually isn’t politic to say upfront you don’t like the process or the social aspects of it. You can say, “Let’s pick a date and get on with the fun part,” but it is ungraceful at best to be blunt about not treasuring time spent with your friends or their hand-picked friends. Treasuring every minute is the mythology, and that is openly challenged at your peril, LOL. But yes, mileage does vary and some women friends have a prevailing ethos that is more typical of guys.

 

[Allegra]

Can’t you give them a polite nudge? Small steps, one at a time?

I would probably start from a friendly suggestion that if they don’t like the decisions perhaps they should come to meetings more often, and if they kept dismissing my suggestions I would eventually end up telling them absent voters don’t get complaining rights and eventually that it makes no sense being, largely just in name, on a team or board one doesn’t want to participate in the works of, so perhaps they should find a way to extricate themselves from the duty. Chances are there would be a hostile reaction sooner or later, in which case I guess I’d end up cutting them short, eventually. You need to negate the stagnation and inaertia that enables the situation. Not that you were asking for advice but anyway, just being practical.

Chev’s School of Diplomacy and Social Arts(™) you might as well just state that fact and explain, briefly, your different preference, since it’s not going to change. I sometimes end up telling people I’m happy to be part of the work and the decision-making but I don’t get a kick from the process or the social aspects of it. And sometimes I just take charge briefly to clean the mess (janitorial skills are useful in business; they include Managing Your Manager(™) and Supervising Your Supervisor(™); they are crucial to Not Getting Shafted on Your Shift(™)).

I’m not really in a position of leadership in this group, so I just keep my mouth shut.

 

[chevalier]

When women friends get together,

Scared to the bone already! This isn’t going to be good for me, but I’ll read on nonetheless.

it usually isn’t politic to say upfront you don’t like the process or the social aspects of it.

Yup, that’s the point. The usual rule of the social game — also with men, actually — is that certain things are considered legitimate based on alleged consensus just because it would be impolitic for anyone to break out of the consensus. But there are various ways of withdrawing one’s consent from that sort of convention, not all of which are impolite or even markedly unconventional. You can usually come up with a sufficiently civilized red herring.

You can say, “Let’s pick a date and get on with the fun part,” but it is ungraceful at best to be blunt about not treasuring time spent with your friends or their hand-picked friends.

It’s precisely because you treasure that time that you want to do something meaningful or just chill, instead of going through the motions of something that isn’t even really happening but is just an excuse to talk, in some form of ritual. If you try to streamline it toward something more meaningful without lambastic the vain chit-chat too openly, your friends are going to pick up the hint. This is similar to a guy nudging other guys to actually try to catch a fish rather than starting another sixpack.

Treasuring every minute is the mythology, and that is openly challenged at your peril, LOL.

I’m well acquainted with the LOL:

women = peril anyway

(* Especially to another woman. )

But yes, mileage does vary and some women friends have a prevailing ethos that is more typical of guys.

Plenty of your race cut straight to the chase (in a way that baffles men), you just don’t realize.

I think people in either their fifties or their twenties are different, but a lot of thirty-somethings (that was twenty-somethings just yesterday) of the female persuasion are actualyl accomplished spare-me-the-nonsense-and-cut-the-**** go-getters always going for no. 1. Part of the reason I’m probably going to be a lifetime bachelor, actually. It’s a love-and-hate relationship.

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For the record, don’t think that avoiding a ‘something’ contest among men is any less delicate. It in fact usually takes a lot of work unless of course you can outshout or at the very least outrank everybody else present. Just having a better plan is not usually sufficient.