Healthy ,willing and able

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Greenfields

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Say if I was a healthy mom,already had children, was in my late 40’s and husband and I very happy to have a try for a new baby (all systems go) Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift
if that baby is exactly as God intended,perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?Who am I to say to God,yes I’ll accept the one that every one thinks is “normal”
but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not.
Why are my husband and I not allowed to be brave even in the eyes of some Catholics when the world needs say children with Down’s Syndrome -some of the most beautiful souls I have met in this upside down world?
I just don’t get it that I’ve been told perhaps we shouldn’t try because of the risk.
I believe that’s between me, my husband and God,
Thoughts please 🙂
* I request that this isn’t turned into a for and against NFP
thread. *
 
Greenfields said:
Say if I was a healthy mom,already had children, was in my late 40’s and husband and I very happy to have a try for a new baby (all systems go) Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift
if that baby is exactly as God intended,perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?Who am I to say to God,yes I’ll accept the one that every one thinks is “normal”
but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not.
Why are my husband and I not allowed to be brave even in the eyes of some Catholics when the world needs say children with Down’s Syndrome -some of the most beautiful souls I have met in this upside down world?
I just don’t get it that I’ve been told perhaps we shouldn’t try because of the risk.
I believe that’s between me, my husband and God,
Thoughts please 🙂
* I request that this isn’t turned into a for and against NFP
thread. *
Click to expand...
I should think that persons at large won’t be volunteering advice and opinions one way or the other as to what you should or should not propose in regard to children. Of course if you ask someone - they are of course entitled to an opinion which may not match your own. Your family might also feel that volunteering an opinion (be it support or counsel) might be reasonable.

Having dealt with who might feel free to offer an opinion, let’s move to the reasonableness of said opinions.

You ask the question: * “Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift if that baby is exactly as God intended, perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?” * I wonder why you include “exactly as God intended” - which suggests God is “directing traffic” so to speak. That’s a bit too fatalistic for my liking; it can be hidden behind and used as an excuse not to choose wisely.

*Then you say: “Who am I to say to God, yes **I’ll accept **the one that every one thinks is “normal” but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not. Why are my husband and I **not allowed **…” * Well, your “acceptance” is not the matter in question - rather the wisdom of your choice to seek a child is what’s being questioned. And there is no question of whether you are “allowed”. Again - all that can be questioned is the wisdom of your choice.

The facts are that the probability of serious “imperfections” (your term) is correlated with age. Every parent, in contemplating family, will make a judgement about whether the timing and number of children, considering many factors, and those judgements are unique to those parents. It is unreasonable to expect all would-be parents to feel as you do (“happy to take much higher than average risks”), and it is unreasonable for the naysayers to expect you to feel as they do. It is enough for all parties to recognise that the risk of serious “imperfections” are not irrelevant to the choice to have another child.
 
Greenfields said:
Say if I was a healthy mom,already had children, was in my late 40’s and husband and I very happy to have a try for a new baby (all systems go) Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift
if that baby is exactly as God intended,perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?Who am I to say to God,yes I’ll accept the one that every one thinks is “normal”
but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not.
Why are my husband and I not allowed to be brave even in the eyes of some Catholics when the world needs say children with Down’s Syndrome -some of the most beautiful souls I have met in this upside down world?
I just don’t get it that I’ve been told perhaps we shouldn’t try because of the risk.
I believe that’s between me, my husband and God,
Thoughts please 🙂
* I request that this isn’t turned into a for and against NFP
thread. *
Click to expand...
 
Greenfields said:
Say if I was a healthy mom,already had children, was in my late 40’s and husband and I very happy to have a try for a new baby (all systems go) Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift
if that baby is exactly as God intended,perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?Who am I to say to God,yes I’ll accept the one that every one thinks is “normal”
but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not.
Why are my husband and I not allowed to be brave even in the eyes of some Catholics when the world needs say children with Down’s Syndrome -some of the most beautiful souls I have met in this upside down world?
I just don’t get it that I’ve been told perhaps we shouldn’t try because of the risk.
I believe that’s between me, my husband and God,
Thoughts please 🙂
* I request that this isn’t turned into a for and against NFP
thread. *
Click to expand...
Well said - it is no one else’s business but between husband wife and God.
 
" That’s a bit too fatalistic for my liking; it can be hidden behind and used as an excuse not to choose wisely."
Your word"**choose**" concerns me.
 
Greenfields said:
" That’s a bit too fatalistic for my liking; it can be hidden behind and used as an excuse not to choose wisely."
Code: 
       Your word"**choose**" concerns me.
Click to expand...
Nothing “concerning” is implied by the word. Every action we take, every judgement we make entails the making of a choice. I choose…
 
Greenfields said:
Say if I was a healthy mom,already had children, was in my late 40’s and husband and I very happy to have a try for a new baby (all systems go) Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift
if that baby is exactly as God intended,perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?Who am I to say to God,yes I’ll accept the one that every one thinks is “normal”
but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not.
Why are my husband and I not allowed to be brave even in the eyes of some Catholics when the world needs say children with Down’s Syndrome -some of the most beautiful souls I have met in this upside down world?
I just don’t get it that I’ve been told perhaps we shouldn’t try because of the risk.
I believe that’s between me, my husband and God,
Thoughts please 🙂
* I request that this isn’t turned into a for and against NFP
thread. *
Click to expand...
I know some will disagree with me, but: sure, why not? 🙂

After all, even at 40, the risk is not 100%; it’s more like 1 in 30 even at age 45.

And it can occur even at much younger ages (ask me about it!). Nothing is certain in life.

Moreover, even if a child is born with Down’s syndrome, your caring for and raising that child can serve as a witness to our modern anti-life culture, which pays lip service to those with disabilities but has no problem with killing them before they can even be born.

Bear in mind, though, that:
  1. children with Down’s syndrome are at an elevated risk of developing certain disorders, such as Alzheimer’s and leukemia, at a much younger age, and,
  2. a pregnancy with trisomy 21 (the chromosomal abnormality that leads to Down’s syndrome) can end in a miscarriage or intra-uterine death, which can be a heart-breaker in itself (again, ask me about it! :()
Those are the medical facts. The rest is between the husband, wife, and Our Lord. 🙂
 
Greenfields said:
Say if I was a healthy mom,already had children, was in my late 40’s and husband and I very happy to have a try for a new baby (all systems go) Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift
if that baby is exactly as God intended,perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?Who am I to say to God,yes I’ll accept the one that every one thinks is “normal”
but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not.
Why are my husband and I not allowed to be brave even in the eyes of some Catholics when the world needs say children with Down’s Syndrome -some of the most beautiful souls I have met in this upside down world?
I just don’t get it that I’ve been told perhaps we shouldn’t try because of the risk.
I believe that’s between me, my husband and God,
Thoughts please 🙂
* I request that this isn’t turned into a for and against NFP
thread. *
Click to expand...
I haven’t read the thread, but I think that sharing your family planning with people around you is where this breaks down.

When you tell people plans about the future, they think they are being asked permission, especially if they are close to you.
 
Greenfields said:
Say if I was a healthy mom,already had children, was in my late 40’s and husband and I very happy to have a try for a new baby (all systems go) Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift
if that baby is exactly as God intended,perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?Who am I to say to God,yes I’ll accept the one that every one thinks is “normal”
but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not.
Why are my husband and I not allowed to be brave even in the eyes of some Catholics when the world needs say children with Down’s Syndrome -some of the most beautiful souls I have met in this upside down world?
I just don’t get it that I’ve been told perhaps we shouldn’t try because of the risk.
I believe that’s between me, my husband and God,
Thoughts please 🙂
* I request that this isn’t turned into a for and against NFP
thread. *
Click to expand...
There’s also the issue that in the late 40s, the chance of miscarriage is much higher than the chance of any live-born baby at all. Look at the chart at the top of the page here–I don’t know how reputable that particular site is, but I’ve seen the chart elsewhere–as women age in their 40s, their chance of a life birth plummets while the risk of miscarriage skyrockets.

birthinjuryjustice.org/what-can-go-wrong-with-the-birth-process/negligent-high-risk-birth-management/advanced-maternal-age/

At some point in the late 40s, the risk of miscarriage is in excess of 90%.

At that age, when trying for a baby, one has to be prepared for repeated miscarriages.
 
Xantippe said:
I haven’t read the thread, but I think that sharing your family planning with people around you is where this breaks down.

When you tell people plans about the future, they think they are being asked permission, especially if they are close to you.
Click to expand...
Yeah I know :)I guess I just figured they all believed everyone is equally loved by God
🤷
 
Greenfields said:
Yeah I know :)I guess I just figured they all believed everyone is equally loved by God
🤷
Click to expand...
Well, presumably they care about you, they know you’re not a spring chicken, and they’re worried.

Come to think of it, how about having a chat about your plans with your OB? Your OB might appreciate a heads up, have some thoughts about supplements, etc.
 
Miscarried babies are still souls that belong and are loved by God.
 
Greenfields said:
Miscarried babies are still souls that belong and are loved by God.
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I’m glad you take that stance. There are some (including some folks who used to post here) who still insist that they go either to Hell or to Limbo, no questions asked. 😦
 
Greenfields said:
Miscarried babies are still souls that belong and are loved by God.
Click to expand...
You are so right! All lives matter and they all count. Every single child is created in the image of God and is perfectly made just as He saw fit. The most beautiful he keeps with Him.

You’re going to be fed a lot of scary stats on CAF about risks of birth defects, miscarriage, still birth, and if your lucky you will even get the maternal death stats. What I will tell you is I am so glad my parents stayed open to children and continued allowing God to bless them well past 40. Otherwise I would not be here and some of my siblings wouldn’t be either. Mom never had a still birth or miscarriage. None of us have birth defects of any kind. Mom is still living. I have had still births and miscarriages and I am under 40 so it actually happens at all ages. Things beyond our control and understanding occur everyday. God is the only one in this universe in control of life and how long that life will remain on earth. One thing I have developed due to my losses is a deeper appreciation for my children on earth with me. The little things they do no longer bug me so much. I’m glad they aren’t angels because Angels don’t stick around nearly long enough. It’s made me trust in God on a much higher level. It’s given me a new type of prayer life. It’s matured the relationship my husband and I have together because now we’ve mourned in ways that no parent should have to mourne together. Our children have new advocates in heaven and they pray to them often. Their goal is to one day be united together. Each of our losses has had a positive effect on our family life once the initial shock, hurt, grief has subsided. Even the grief has been beneficial in the fact that it’s deepened our family bond and our family’s bond with God. Each life has mattered, has counted, has blessed us. All four of our losses have been in the last two years. Two were within the last few months. The doctors aren’t sure we will be able to carry another to term but we are determined to see what God has in store for us. Stay close to the Lord and let Him guide you. Whatever you decide is ok morally. Don’t let others attempt to determine for you what is best for your family. I shared our decisions not to try to sway yours but to let you know there are those of us that don’t follow what the world has predetermined is best for all. We are all individuals and there is no one size fits all in life.

I’ll be praying for your family. Please pray for mine.
 
Well, when making a decision, it’s not a bad thing to know facts and statistics; quite the opposite! It’s part of making an informed decision. Note I say “part”–there are other factors in most any decision, unless you’re comparing mortgage interest rates or something. 😛

That having been said…
  1. I do agree with not discussing family planning much outside of immediate family, one’s OB, and perhaps a trusted friend or priest. Makes things much simpler overall.
  2. One of the factors in trying for another baby at an advanced age is how the parents and, if applicable, siblings, will handle a miscarriage. Some women are mentally and spiritually okay after repeated miscarriages; it’s part of their personality, and their faith or nature allows them to grieve briefly, but manage day-to-day stuff and the care of other children pretty well overall. Others are less so, or might be able to cope with a couple of miscarriages but then find that a cycle of TTC (or simply not avoiding) followed by prolonged, doctor-ordered abstinence in the midst of grief is very hard on their marriage and family. After my miscarriage, my OB said to not get pregnant for a cycle in order to let my body recover. Which made sense, medically, but was kind of hard on us as a couple, and that was after a pretty early miscarriage in which my cycle returned quickly. In the case of later losses, which tend to be more emotionally difficult for many women, it may take rather longer for a cycle to return. Neither “type” of woman (or man!) is better, per se–it’s a question of personality.
Insofar as siblings, going through a rotation of “you’re having a brother or sister!–Oh wait, no, you aren’t, let’s all grieve together” for years at a time can be pretty rough on kids. I emphasize “can”–I’m sure a lot depends on how the parents handle it–but it’s certainly a factor to consider.

Lastly, there is no question that an individual with Down Syndrome is to be loved and cherished as the child of God that he or she is. However, it’s not a bad thing to evaluate whether or not parents or siblings are up to the unique challenges that having a baby, child, and dependent adult with the health issues not uncommon to those with Down Syndrome will involve. You can’t plan for all contingencies, of course! At the same time, if, to use an extreme example, Dad’s going through treatment for cancer that promises to drag on for years, there is little support in place via local schools etc for children with special needs, you’re 42, and you already have seven kids under eight, it’s not necessarily selfish to say “I think we should avoid for now,” just as it also isn’t necessarily selfish to say “I don’t think we need to avoid for now, because we can handle that if it happens,” every family being the different structure of personalities, circumstances, and so on that it is.
  1. Being concerned for mom’s physical health or the family’s overall wellbeing doesn’t automatically mean someone isn’t open to life or is anti-baby. 😉 The two aren’t mutually exclusive. I had really severe PPD after I had DD, leading one friend to be happy-but-cautious when I announced that I was pregnant first with the baby I miscarried, and then with this one. This is a devout, Catholic, NFP-using woman. She’ll love this baby just like she loves DD, and she was delighted to hear that a new soul had come into the world both times, but was also worried for my mental health, given that I spent the first 10 months of DD’s life in a suicidal, obsessive thought pattern. Neither her concern nor her joy were misplaced!
 
UbiCaritas said:
Well, when making a decision, it’s not a bad thing to know facts and statistics; quite the opposite! It’s part of making an informed decision. Note I say “part”–there are other factors in most any decision, unless you’re comparing mortgage interest rates or something. 😛

That having been said…
  1. I do agree with not discussing family planning much outside of immediate family, one’s OB, and perhaps a trusted friend or priest. Makes things much simpler overall.
  2. One of the factors in trying for another baby at an advanced age is how the parents and, if applicable, siblings, will handle a miscarriage. Some women are mentally and spiritually okay after repeated miscarriages; it’s part of their personality, and their faith or nature allows them to grieve briefly, but manage day-to-day stuff and the care of other children pretty well overall. Others are less so, or might be able to cope with a couple of miscarriages but then find that a cycle of TTC (or simply not avoiding) followed by prolonged, doctor-ordered abstinence in the midst of grief is very hard on their marriage and family. After my miscarriage, my OB said to not get pregnant for a cycle in order to let my body recover. Which made sense, medically, but was kind of hard on us as a couple, and that was after a pretty early miscarriage in which my cycle returned quickly. In the case of later losses, which tend to be more emotionally difficult for many women, it may take rather longer for a cycle to return. Neither “type” of woman (or man!) is better, per se–it’s a question of personality.
Insofar as siblings, going through a rotation of “you’re having a brother or sister!–Oh wait, no, you aren’t, let’s all grieve together” for years at a time can be pretty rough on kids. I emphasize “can”–I’m sure a lot depends on how the parents handle it–but it’s certainly a factor to consider.

Lastly, there is no question that an individual with Down Syndrome is to be loved and cherished as the child of God that he or she is. However, it’s not a bad thing to evaluate whether or not parents or siblings are up to the unique challenges that having a baby, child, and dependent adult with the health issues not uncommon to those with Down Syndrome will involve. You can’t plan for all contingencies, of course! At the same time, if, to use an extreme example, Dad’s going through treatment for cancer that promises to drag on for years, there is little support in place via local schools etc for children with special needs, you’re 42, and you already have seven kids under eight, it’s not necessarily selfish to say “I think we should avoid for now,” just as it also isn’t necessarily selfish to say “I don’t think we need to avoid for now, because we can handle that if it happens,” every family being the different structure of personalities, circumstances, and so on that it is.
  1. Being concerned for mom’s physical health or the family’s overall wellbeing doesn’t automatically mean someone isn’t open to life or is anti-baby. 😉 The two aren’t mutually exclusive. I had really severe PPD after I had DD, leading one friend to be happy-but-cautious when I announced that I was pregnant first with the baby I miscarried, and then with this one. This is a devout, Catholic, NFP-using woman. She’ll love this baby just like she loves DD, and she was delighted to hear that a new soul had come into the world both times, but was also worried for my mental health, given that I spent the first 10 months of DD’s life in a suicidal, obsessive thought pattern. Neither her concern nor her joy were misplaced!
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Very good points.

My kids (especially the six-year-old at the time) were really crushed by my miscarriage, and I hadn’t even announced the pregnancy beforehand. Also, I had to spend a night in the hospital.

As UbiCaritas mentions, there was substantial medically-ordered abstinence afterward, just as there would be for having a live baby. There were also some unexpected complications (after I thought everything was normal, I suddenly got a two-week long episode of bleeding and went anemic–which I discovered early one morning when I collapsed on the way back from the bathroom–my husband said I was literally green from the blood loss). All in all, there were months of abstinence, with no live baby to show for it.

And that was as a relatively young 36-year-old. (I did manage to have a healthy baby the next year.)

Talk to your OB about this idea, ideally with your husband present, so he can hear everything you do.
 
Xantippe said:
Very good points.

My kids (especially the six-year-old at the time) were really crushed by my miscarriage, and I hadn’t even announced the pregnancy beforehand. Also, I had to spend a night in the hospital.

As UbiCaritas mentions, there was substantial medically-ordered abstinence afterward, just as there would be for having a live baby. There were also some unexpected complications (after I thought everything was normal, I suddenly got a two-week long episode of bleeding and went anemic–which I discovered early one morning when I collapsed on the way back from the bathroom–my husband said I was literally green from the blood loss). All in all, there were months of abstinence, with no live baby to show for it.

And that was as a relatively young 36-year-old. (I did manage to have a healthy baby the next year.)

Talk to your OB about this idea, ideally with your husband present, so he can hear everything you do.
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Aw, what a sad experience. I’m so sorry.

Absolutely do talk with your doctor. It is difficult even to conceive in your mid- to upper forties, though of course it does happen. This is a nice document from the American Society for Reproductive Medicine:

asrm.org/uploadedFiles/ASRM_Content/Resources/Patient_Resources/Fact_Sheets_and_Info_Booklets/agefertility.pdf
 
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