Heaven and Hell

[Counterpoint]

I do not believe in a literal hell. But I do believe in heaven. However, I see heaven as a state of mind, not a literal place. What sayeth you? Do you believe in the existence of heaven and/or hell? If so, what is heaven? What is hell?

 

[fastenatingguy]

I do not believe in a literal hell. But I do believe in heaven. However, I see heaven as a state of mind, not a literal place. What sayeth you? Do you believe in the existence of heaven and/or hell? If so, what is heaven? What is hell?

Simple.

Heaven is God and love in abundance…

Hell, the absence thereof.

 

[Nelka]

Yes they both exist.

 

[GLam8833]

According to CCC 1020-1022:
if we are full of wickedness, hatred, and denial of everything that we will turn our face away from love forever, away from God. A life without love, however, is nothing but hell.

I guess Heaven is just the opposite, we live in God’s never-ending Love and Favor!

 

[Counterpoint]

Simple.

Heaven is God and love in abundance…

Hell, the absence thereof.

Do you believe “hell” is a literal place, where the damned suffer “eternal fire?”

 

[Counterpoint]

Yes they both exist.

What is heaven? And what is hell?

 

[Sochi]

References to dogma and CCC etc, are rather useless. Experientially, heaven may be said to be the feeling of Unicity, of no separation. Hell, the sensation of separation. Think about it using examples from your own experience: When there was a sense of dread, doom, whatever, in the last analysis you felt like “me and all that, and the weight of it” In moments of elation, of bliss, there may not even have been the sense of individuality, only the being taken up in the precise moment of being that experience. If you believe in an “after” life, a contradiction in terms, why would it be any different, save that death of the body might gel the averaged or median, if such a word can be used, feeling of one’s life. It you tend to agree, this carries with it, on examination, a kind of inexorable logic which bears much closer examination.

 

[Counterpoint]

According to CCC 1020-1022:
if we are full of wickedness, hatred, and denial of everything that we will turn our face away from love forever, away from God. A life without love, however, is nothing but hell.

But there is more…

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” (source: Wikipedia: Article 1035, “The Catechism of the Catholic Church”)

 

[Mr_Clean]

I believe both places are real actual places and that we all go to one or the other for an eternity. I believe this because there was this actual guy named Jesus who was 100% God and 100% man and nothing but 100% truth came out of his mouth. He said Hell is real and those who reject him will go there.

 

[Counterpoint]

I believe both places are real actual places and that we all go to one or the other for an eternity. I believe this because there was this actual guy named Jesus who was 100% God and 100% man and nothing but 100% truth came out of his mouth. He said Hell is real and those who reject him will go there.

Okay, So, you believe that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin will spend eternity in hell “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” - Mark 9:44

 

[oldburkes]

uch:

Okay, So, you believe that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin will spend eternity in hell “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” - Mark 9:44

That depends. Is the worm a philosophical worm? or a flesh eating one?
uch:

 

[Mr_Clean]

Okay, So, you believe that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin will spend eternity in hell “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” - Mark 9:44

Scripture: Luke 9:51-62

51 When the days drew near for him to be received up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him; 53 but the people would not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, “Lord, do you want us to bid fire come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But he turned and rebuked them. 56 And they went on to another village. 57 As they were going along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” 58 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.” 59 To another he said, “Follow me.” But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 60 But he said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61 Another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home.” 62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Yes

 

[Vouthon]

“…Hell is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life…The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy…“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state…The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom…”

- Blessed Pope John Paul II (General Audience, July 28, 1999)

On Heaven: In Catholic Christianity, heaven is called “supreme beatitude” the latter word being Latin for “a state of utmost bliss” and it consists of the eternal enjoyment of the “Beatific Vision”. This state of being is an eternal and unmediated perception of the Essence of God; which the blessed participate in and are divinized by through grace.

Saint Thomas Aquinas explained what this supreme state of blessedness is like, in his Summa Contra Gentiles:

“…If God’s essence is to be seen, the intelligence must see it in the divine essence itself, so that in such vision the divine essence shall be at once the object which is seen and that whereby it is seen. This is the immediate vision of God that is promised us in Scripture: ‘We see now in a glass darkly, but then face to face’ (i Cor. xiii, 2): a text absurd to take in a corporeal sense, as though we could imagine a bodily face in Deity itself, whereas it has been shown that God is incorporeal…Nor again is it possible for us with our bodily face to see God, since the bodily sense of sight, implanted in our face, can be only of bodily things. Thus then shalt we see God face to face, in that we shall have an immediate vision of Him, as of a man whom we see face to face. By this vision we are singularly assimilated to God, and are partakers in His happiness: for this is His happiness, that He essentially understands His own substance. Hence it is said: ‘When He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is’ (i John iii, 2). And the Lord said: ‘I prepare for you as my Father hath prepared for me a kingdom, that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom’ (Luke xxii, 29). This cannot be understood of bodily meat and drink, but of that food which is taken at the table of Wisdom, whereof it is said by Wisdom: Eat ye my bread and drink the wine that I have mingled for you (Prov. ix, 5). They therefore eat and drink at the table of God, who enjoy the same happiness wherewith God is happy, seeing Him in the way which He sees Himself…”

- Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), Summa Contra Gentiles

The best description of heaven still has to be Pope Benedict XII’s definition from 1336, which is de fide (dogmatically binding) or in other words an exercise of papal infallibility (ex cathedra):

By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the passion and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and see the divine essense with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence. Moreover, by this vision and enjoyment the souls of those who have already died are truly blessed and have eternal life and rest. Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment.

Such a vision and enjoyment of the divine essence do away with the acts of faith and hope in these souls, inasmuch as faith and hope are properly theological virtues. And after such intuitive and face-to-face vision and enjoyment has or will have begun for these souls, the same vision and enjoyment has continued and will continue without any interruption and without end until the last Judgment and from then on forever.

 

[annem]

Counterpoint

,“Christ takes many forms with different names until their oneness can be recognized.” - A Course In Miracles

Hi. You quote from a course in miracles, and I take it you are a member of that cult?

The course takes pantheism from Buddhism and Hinduism, although it reverses the fatalism of those religions and instead claims the force that is the entire universe is actually waiting day and night to shower you with miracles. All you have to do is pay lots of money for the course to tap into the money, love, and utter contentment that is the universe/god that encompasses all.

One aspect of the course must certainly appeal to many people living less than stellar lives, because the course rejects not only heaven and hell but also good and evil.

The author of the course of miracles claimed she heard voices - well, Jesus, to be specific. Not that this was the Jesus of history or the bible. No, it was a chatty, very reduced Jesus blathering on about how all we have to do is think our magical thoughts and we will all become rich and happy.

What is it about this that you find compelling? Logical? Anything?

May God flood you with light, Annem

 

[Counterpoint]

The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.

Two points:

1. The CCC appears to say that hell is a place of “eternal fire.”

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” (source: Article 1035, "The Catechism of the Catholic Church)

1. If everyone is seeking the good (and the good is ultimately God), then how is it that anyone knowingly rejects God (the ultimate or supreme good)?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I do not believe in a literal hell. But I do believe in heaven. However, I see heaven as a state of mind, not a literal place. What sayeth you? Do you believe in the existence of heaven and/or hell? If so, what is heaven? What is hell?

I’ve often said on this forum I had the peculiar experience of my father turning up in my bedroom the night he died. He started with an apology for 24 years of deliberate vindictive cruelty, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream. Then he just disappeared.

It was quite obvious something was coming for him. The scream was so terrifying that I started to scream. And all I could see was him - not was coming for him.

Hell exists, the devil exists, demons exist.

Heaven exists, God exists, angels exist.

And they’re not states of mind.

From tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/heaven-the-hope-of-our-souls.html -

You can read the rest at the link.

**Heaven - **A dream of heaven by Saint John Bosco - I assume he was telling the truth. In 1876, his recently-deceased disciple Saint Dominic Savio appeared to him in a dream. Saint John Bosco told his pupils:

As you know, dreams come in one’s sleep. So during the night hours of December 6, while I was in my room – whether reading or pacing back and forth or resting in my bed, I am not sure – I began dreaming.

It suddenly seemed to me that I was standing on a small mound or hillock, on the rim of a broad plain so far-reaching that the eye could not compass its boundaries lost in vastness. All was blue, blue as the calmest sea, though what I saw was not water. It resembled a highly polished, sparkling sea of glass. Stretching out beneath, behind and on either side of me was an expanse of what looked like seashore.

Broad, imposing avenues divided the plain into grand gardens of indescribable beauty, each broken up by thickets, lawns, and flower beds of varied shapes and colors.

None of the plants we know could ever give you an idea of those flowers, although there was a resemblance of sorts. The very grass, the flowers, the trees, and the fruit – all were of singular and magnificent beauty. Leaves were of gold, trunks and boughs were of diamonds, and every tiny detail was in keeping with this wealth. The various kinds of plants were beyond counting.

Each species and each single plant sparkled with a brilliance of its own. Scattered throughout those gardens and spread over the entire plain I could see countless buildings whose architecture, magnificence, harmony, grandeur and size were so unique that one could say all the treasures of earth could not suffice to build a single one. If only my boys had one such house, I said to myself, how they would love it, how happy they would be, and how much they would enjoy being there! Thus ran my thoughts as I gazed upon the exterior of those buildings, but how much greater must their inner splendor have been!

fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp - You can read the details of the following vision at the link.

**Hell - ** The three children at Fatima in 1917 were granted a vision of Hell by Mary -

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:

“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.”

 

[Vouthon]

Two points:

1. The CCC appears to say that hell is a place of “eternal fire.”

It does not once say that it is a place. It merely quotes Jesus when he speaks of “eternal fire”. This is understood to be an image, since the damned are souls and therefore the fire is interpreted to be a spiritual pain brought about by the conciousness of their separation from God.

Hell has never been described doctrinally in Catholicism as a “place”.

1. If everyone is seeking the good (and the good is ultimately God), then how is it that anyone knowingly rejects God (the ultimate or supreme good)?

We do not know if they have. Nor do we know if “everyone is seeking the good”. Some people may care little for truth and instead live merely to satiate their own desires.

Certainly some Catholic theologians have agreed with the sentiment you seem to imply:

“…O Lord. Be propitious, and manifest Your face; and all peoples will be saved, who no longer will be able to desert the Source of life and its sweetness, once having foretasted even a little thereof. For no one departs from You except because He is ignorant of You…”

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464)

 

[Vouthon]

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:

I should note that the Fatima Vision is a private revelation, which means that there is room for much subjectivity. The Church affirms that the imagination of the seer is made use of by God in these circumstances.

Even with this, keeping in mind the symbolism of the vision, I have always found it interesting where the “fire of hell” is described as issuing from:

They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves

 

[JoyintheCross]

I should note that the Fatima Vision is a private revelation, which means that there is room for much subjectivity. The Church affirms that the imagination of the seer is made use of by God in these circumstances.

Even with this, keeping in mind the symbolism of the vision, I have always found it interesting where the “fire of hell” is described as issuing from:

So was John Bosco’s dream subjective too?

Do you think the landscape and houses were real?

Dominic Savio told him they enjoy a natural happiness there?

I’ve just always wondered about this dream and how subjective it was.

 

[Counterpoint]

I’ve often said on this forum I had the peculiar experience of my father turning up in my bedroom the night he died. He started with an apology for 24 years of deliberate vindictive cruelty, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream. Then he just disappeared.

It was quite obvious something was coming for him. The scream was so terrifying that I started to scream. And all I could see was him - not was coming for him.

Interesting. Just curious. Were you asleep or awake when the apparition of your father appeared to you?