Heaven, Hell, And/Or Whatever

[z0wb13]

http://www.chinapage.com/lz50.gif

The Master gives himself up
to whatever the moment brings.
He knows that he is going to die,
and she has nothing left to hold on to:
no illusions in his mind,
no resistances in his body.
He doesn’t think about his actions;
they flow from the core of his being.
He holds nothing back from life;
therefore he is ready for death,
as a man is ready for sleep
after a good day’s work.

Men flow into life, and ebb into death.

Some are filled with life;
Some are empty with death;
Some hold fast to life, and thereby perish,
For life is an abstraction.

Those who are filled with life
Need not fear tigers and rhinos in the wilds,
Nor wear armour and shields in battle;
The rhinoceros finds no place in them for its horn,
The tiger no place for its claw,
The soldier no place for a weapon,
For death finds no place in them.

when i tell christians that i don’t believe in an afterlife, it seems to creep them out. some taoists can live forever as immortals, but there is a lot of misinformation and confusion (among new agers) that leads to all sorts of unhealthy practices.

there is a lot of overlap between folk mythology and taoism, so in some traditions there is an afterlife. the ghost festival is a notable holiday, where the living can burn offerings for the dead, especially hell bank notes. and even though i don’t believe this, i go ahead and celebrate anyway. just like i celebrate xmas, even though i don’t believe in santa claus.

Empty the self completely;
Embrace perfect peace.
The world will rise and move;
Watch it return to rest.
All the flourishing things
Will return to their source.

This return is peaceful;
It is the flow of nature,
An eternal decay and renewal.
Accepting this brings enlightenment,
Ignoring this brings misery.

Who accepts nature’s flow becomes all-cherishing;
Being all-cherishing he becomes impartial;
Being impartial he becomes magnanimous;
Being magnanimous he becomes natural;
Being natural he becomes one with the Way;
Being one with the Way he becomes immortal:
Though his body will decay, the Way will not.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Hey, thanks for the lesson. My wife is always correcting my grammer.

I tell her she takes my breath away.

Craig

If she takes away your breath too often, she might have to vacuum up a pile of dust.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Wikipedia has a couple of links on heaven and hell, which seem to give fairly good layman’s versions of the topics.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

 

[BTTG]

If she takes away your breath too often, she might have to vacuum up a pile of dust.

Hey, I never thought of that. However, if it is God’s will I shall die that way… so be it.

 

[Genesius]

BTTG, you never did answer my question about what group teaches what you first posted, or if it was just your own personal thought? If you are not comfortable posting it, you could send me a private email.

 

[BTTG]

BTTG, you never did answer my question about what group teaches what you first posted, or if it was just your own personal thought? If you are not comfortable posting it, you could send me a private email.

It is not as important as to what “group”, or denomination we are affiliated with, but what scripture has to say. Whatever belief the “group” has must be validated by scripture. The most respected person on this earth besides God, is my mother and father. However, they too are not perfect, God’s word is. If I were Catholic, anything the Pope said, it would have to be validated by the Bible.
For Jesus said to search the scriptures for eternal life, not search what man has to say.
(Joh 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[Vixit]

From the Statement of Belief for my old Evangelical, non-denhominational fundamentalist church:

**Hell and Eternal Retribution **The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the Lake of Fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting. The Lake of Fire is literal. The terms “eternal” and “everlasting”, used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the Lake of Fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the presence of God (Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 19:20).

Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Genesius]

It is not as important as to what “group”, or denomination we are affiliated with, but what scripture has to say. Whatever belief the “group” has must be validated by scripture. The most respected person on this earth besides God, is my mother and father. However, they too are not perfect, God’s word is. If I were Catholic, anything the Pope said, it would have to be validated by the Bible.
For Jesus said to search the scriptures for eternal life, not search what man has to say.
(Joh 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Boy, that’s a mouthful…LOL. A lot to respond to. I will address each of the points with a paragraph, so when responding please refer to the number of the paragraph. Thank you.

1. The purpose for this thread was not to emphasize the importance of belonging to a particular group, but rather what different groups believe about heaven or hell. In other words, the topic of this thread is what groups believe about heaven or hell. If you don’t think it’s that important I can respect that. You really didn’t have to respond if you don’t think it’s important.
2. I am assuming by your response that you either 1) don’t belong to any denomination or Christian group and are a “lone ranger” Christian, or 2) are ashamed of the particular group to which you are affiliated, or 3) your affiliated group does not have a position on heaven or hell, or documentation to back up their position other than their interpretation of Scripture on heaven or hell. Also, I can respect your personal position that you believe what a group teaches should be validated by Scripture (however that is done since every denomination has their own unique interpretation, all claiming to be led by the same Holy Spirit).
3. Jesus nowhere said to search the Scriptures in lieu of what man has to say. If that were the case then we could not trust the Scriptures since they were written by men as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. In fact, in one of his letters St. Paul even alludes to the fact that he is writing of his own volition…apart from the Holy Spirit.
4. Since John 5:39 was not yet written at the time Jesus said that, and therefore was alluding to the OT, I am assuming you search there for eternal life?

Now, having said all that, if I take your reply at face value based upon the thread topic I am assuming if you held a position on heaven or hell it would not be as a representative of any particular group, but of your own personal interpretation of Scripture. That’s okay, too.

 

[BTTG]

Boy, that’s a mouthful…LOL. A lot to respond to. I will address each of the points with a paragraph, so when responding please refer to the number of the paragraph. Thank you.

1. The purpose for this thread was not to emphasize the importance of belonging to a particular group, but rather what different groups believe about heaven or hell. In other words, the topic of this thread is what groups believe about heaven or hell. If you don’t think it’s that important I can respect that. You really didn’t have to respond if you don’t think it’s important.
2. I am assuming by your response that you either 1) don’t belong to any denomination or Christian group and are a “lone ranger” Christian, or 2) are ashamed of the particular group to which you are affiliated, or 3) your affiliated group does not have a position on heaven or hell, or documentation to back up their position other than their interpretation of Scripture on heaven or hell. Also, I can respect your personal position that you believe what a group teaches should be validated by Scripture (however that is done since every denomination has their own unique interpretation, all claiming to be led by the same Holy Spirit).
3. Jesus nowhere said to search the Scriptures in lieu of what man has to say. If that were the case then we could not trust the Scriptures since they were written by men as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. In fact, in one of his letters St. Paul even alludes to the fact that he is writing of his own volition…apart from the Holy Spirit.
4. Since John 5:39 was not yet written at the time Jesus said that, and therefore was alluding to the OT, I am assuming you search there for eternal life?

Now, having said all that, if I take your reply at face value based upon the thread topic I am assuming if you held a position on heaven or hell it would not be as a representative of any particular group, but of your own personal interpretation of Scripture. That’s okay, too.

You make some good points.

I know you are the one to post the thread and I don’t want to misguide the direction of this thread.
If you would like to respond , I would like to ask you 2 questions:
What is your belief of hell? ( question of heaven for a later date)
What reason did you post the question? I completely understand if you do not want to understand this question as it could be for your own personal reason(s).

thanks

 

[Genesius]

You make some good points.

I know you are the one to post the thread and I don’t want to misguide the direction of this thread.
If you would like to respond , I would like to ask you 2 questions:
What is your belief of hell? ( question of heaven for a later date)
What reason did you post the question? I completely understand if you do not want to understand this question as it could be for your own personal reason(s).

thanks

I could easily evade your question and turn it into something else…but I will answer you. The reason I posted the question was out of simple curiousity. I have received some interesting responses from various groups if you look back. I really appreciate the Muslim who responded, as well as everyone else, including you. It was informative. Many people have a tendency to criticize a group without having all the facts. I’m not out to criticize. Just to get the facts.

As you can tell by my name, I am not ashamed to announce that I am a Catholic. Although there are some points the Catholic Church teaches about heaven and hell, it does not have a hard fast interpretation on heaven or hell. I believe many interpretations are allowed, as long as they do not enter the area of heresy (i.e. there is no such thing as either, etc.).

Since I am representing the Catholic Church, I have answered your question somewhat. However, I personally do believe in a literal heaven and hell, as well as a literal God and Satan. I believe that there are saints and angels in heaven as we speak, and I believe there are also souls in hell. I don’t believe that hell will end, but is eternal just like heaven.

Another thing I believe in is purgatory. However, a lot of non-Catholics have a distorted view of purgatory. They believe it is a ‘place’ where people go after they die in between heaven and hell. Some believe it is hell. The Catholic teaching in Protestant terms you could say is another term for what Evangelicals would call ‘sanctification’, a state (or ‘place’ in the afterlife) in which we are purged of our sin. It can occur in this life and the next. There are very few of us that are sin-free upon death. Revelation 21:27 states that nothing unclean will enter heaven. We would all agree that sin is unclean, and although positionally in Christ we are made perfect, in actuality we still sin. Therefore, for most people who will get to heaven, they will have to continue to be purged in the afterlife. There is also no Catholic teaching on a sense of ‘time’ in the afterlife and/or purgatory. My speculation is that it might seem like a fraction of a second, but then again I don’t know for certain.

So there you have it.

 

[BTTG]

I could easily evade your question and turn it into something else…but I will answer you. The reason I posted the question was out of simple curiousity. I have received some interesting responses from various groups if you look back. I really appreciate the Muslim who responded, as well as everyone else, including you. It was informative. Many people have a tendency to criticize a group without having all the facts. I’m not out to criticize. Just to get the facts.

As you can tell by my name, I am not ashamed to announce that I am a Catholic. Although there are some points the Catholic Church teaches about heaven and hell, it does not have a hard fast interpretation on heaven or hell. I believe many interpretations are allowed, as long as they do not enter the area of heresy (i.e. there is no such thing as either, etc.).

Since I am representing the Catholic Church, I have answered your question somewhat. However, I personally do believe in a literal heaven and hell, as well as a literal God and Satan. I believe that there are saints and angels in heaven as we speak, and I believe there are also souls in hell. I don’t believe that hell will end, but is eternal just like heaven.

Another thing I believe in is purgatory. However, a lot of non-Catholics have a distorted view of purgatory. They believe it is a ‘place’ where people go after they die in between heaven and hell. Some believe it is hell. The Catholic teaching in Protestant terms you could say is another term for what Evangelicals would call ‘sanctification’, a state (or ‘place’ in the afterlife) in which we are purged of our sin. It can occur in this life and the next. There are very few of us that are sin-free upon death. Revelation 21:27 states that nothing unclean will enter heaven. We would all agree that sin is unclean, and although positionally in Christ we are made perfect, in actuality we still sin. Therefore, for most people who will get to heaven, they will have to continue to be purged in the afterlife. There is also no Catholic teaching on a sense of ‘time’ in the afterlife and/or purgatory. My speculation is that it might seem like a fraction of a second, but then again I don’t know for certain.

So there you have it.

Thank you for your response.

I question the term of hell and heaven in the afterlife. This thread is not for that discussion. May this thread continue to provide you with the information you are searching for.

 

[Genesius]

Thank you for your response.

I question the term of hell and heaven in the afterlife. This thread is not for that discussion. May this thread continue to provide you with the information you are searching for.

Actually, BTTG, I’m totally open to your position. If you would like to provide more info as to how you arrive at your position, go for it! I’m all ears. I always enjoy hearing other perspectives. No judging.

Of course, by your last response I wonder if you will even be back. But I think you misunderstood the reason for this thread. I’m totally open to hearing various positions, whether or not you represent any group.

 

[BTTG]

Actually, BTTG, I’m totally open to your position. If you would like to provide more info as to how you arrive at your position, go for it! I’m all ears. I always enjoy hearing other perspectives. No judging.

Of course, by your last response I wonder if you will even be back. But I think you misunderstood the reason for this thread. I’m totally open to hearing various positions, whether or not you represent any group.

Many people on this site, are offensive. You seem to have a good character about you.

There are many scriptures that can be interpreted different ways by different people. Then there are verses that require no interpretation.
I often ask 3 questions to Catholics, in which many have trouble answering all three with a yes or no. Those questions are:

1. Are there people in Purgatory?
2. Are there people in heaven?
3. Are there people in hell?

Are people in heaven/paradise, the Bible says 1) no one has ascended to heaven but Jesus - John 3:13
2) Our reward is when Jesus returns - Rev. 22:12

Maybe somebody can help me with what is the criteria for going to hell verses the criteria for going to purgatory?

thank you

 

[Genesius]

Many people on this site, are offensive. You seem to have a good character about you.

There are many scriptures that can be interpreted different ways by different people. Then there are verses that require no interpretation.
I often ask 3 questions to Catholics, in which many have trouble answering all three with a yes or no. Those questions are:

1. Are there people in Purgatory?
2. Are there people in heaven?
3. Are there people in hell?

Are people in heaven/paradise, the Bible says 1) no one has ascended to heaven but Jesus - John 3:13
2) Our reward is when Jesus returns - Rev. 22:12

Maybe somebody can help me with what is the criteria for going to hell verses the criteria for going to purgatory?

thank you

Thank you for the compliment. I believe that charity and humility are two of the most important virtues anyone can possess. The nature of apologetics (arguing for the faith) has a tendency to fan the flames against those virtues if we’re not careful. If we don’t take things personally, but rather present a position without attacking the person I think we represent Christ in more effective way. Agree to disagree. I like the way one apologist stated it, “We can agree to disagree…and then go have a cup of coffee together.”

Having said that, I do notice you have a tendency to quote one or two verses at a time and run with it. I also realize you can’t go into a long dissertation in these forums so I understand. However, we should take note of context. I’m sure you already are aware of that. Before I continue, therefore, I should briefly explain the Catholic Church’s view on interpretation of Scripture and what she allows for.

The Catholic Church allows for faithful Catholics to hold to many different interpretations when it comes to Scripture. Even those few that she interprets for the faithful can be interpreted other ways, as long as those other ones do not contradict the interpretation of the Magisterium.

For instance, the passage in Matt. 16 where Jesus renames Simon “Peter” and gives to him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. The Church says that we faithful Catholics MUST interpret that passage as the rock that Jesus is founding His Church upon to be the person of Peter. The common Protestant interpretation is that it is NOT the person of Peter, but his confession that is the rock of which Jesus speaks. I say it is not a competition, but can be both. Jesus chose Simon because the Father chose him. It was the Father in heaven who revealed to Simon that Jesus was the Messiah through the power of the Holy Spirit. So the rock is in fact both the person of Peter AND his confession.

Anyway, that is just one example of how a particular passage can be interpreted many ways, and all of them can be okay, revealing different aspects of the passage, as long as the interpretion is not in opposition to the Magisterium’s.

Now, for the sake of space I will continue to answer you in another post. Hope you don’t mind. I appreciate your contribution as well.

 

[Genesius]

Now, I will finally get to your question. Thank you for your patience.

If you read my earlier response on Purgatory I think it will answer your question. But to further clarify, the Church teaches that purgatory is only for those who are on the way to heaven, but haven’t been completely purged of their sin. In other words, though we are made perfect in Christ positionally are not sin free by the time we die. Therefore, since no unclean thing can enter heaven there is a purging that must take place between here and heaven. Anyone who is not sin-free, but is in a state of grace (no mortal sin - or of a good conscience before God) will be in purgatory.

As far as criteria for hell…anyone who has totally rejected God, and does not have a clean conscience before God, therefore is not in a state of grace at the moment of death.

Are people currently in heaven, hell, and/or purgatory? The answer is yes, yes, and yes.

Heaven: Threre are 2-3 ways the Church interprets the term “saint”. One is in the sense that all Christians are saints, as in the case of when St. Paul addresses his readers as saints. Another sense is when the Church canonizes people who have lived an extraordinarily holy life. One could say this would also fall into the last category which are simply people, whether human or angels, who are in heaven. This is partly what is referred to as The Communion of Saints. They are in heaven interceding on our behalf as we read in Rev 5:8; 8:3-4; and 6:9-17. I suppose one could argue that this refers to the future, not the present. But if you recall at the Mount of Transfiguration Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah (Luke 9:30-31). Where did they come from? They were obviously neither sleeping, nor dead. Also Eph 3:15 – “For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named…” Apparently families still exist after death in heaven.

Hell: Matt. 25:46: “And these will go off to eternal punishment…” Also Rev. 14:11-12, and Sirach 14:16 which states, “Give, take and treat yourself well, for in the netherworld there will be no joys to seek.” , all illustrate that hell is real and eternal.

Purgatory: Again, we should think of purgatory as sanctification; a process which occurs both in this life and the life to come, and is only for those going to heaven. Matt. 12:32 implies that expiation (or atonement) can occur after death. In 1 John 5:16-17 the writer indicates that there are sins that are mortal and venial (or deadly, not deadly). Where do people go whose sins are not deadly, since they cannot yet enter heaven (Rev. 21:27 – “No unclean thing will enter heaven.”), and John indicates that their sin is not deadly so certainly not hell either. II Maccabbees 12:42-46 tells us that Judas (not Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus) offered up an expiatory sacrifice for the dead that they might be freed from sin. What good would the sacrifice be if they were in hell, and if they were already in heaven…same thing?

Hope that helps to answer your questions. I know it’s a lot, but there’s a lot involved in answering your questions.

 

[BTTG]

Now, I will finally get to your question. Thank you for your patience.

If you read my earlier response on Purgatory I think it will answer your question. But to further clarify, the Church teaches that purgatory is only for those who are on the way to heaven, but haven’t been completely purged of their sin. In other words, though we are made perfect in Christ positionally are not sin free by the time we die. Therefore, since no unclean thing can enter heaven there is a purging that must take place between here and heaven. Anyone who is not sin-free, but is in a state of grace (no mortal sin - or of a good conscience before God) will be in purgatory.

As far as criteria for hell…anyone who has totally rejected God, and does not have a clean conscience before God, therefore is not in a state of grace at the moment of death.

Are people currently in heaven, hell, and/or purgatory? The answer is yes, yes, and yes.

Heaven: Threre are 2-3 ways the Church interprets the term “saint”. One is in the sense that all Christians are saints, as in the case of when St. Paul addresses his readers as saints. Another sense is when the Church canonizes people who have lived an extraordinarily holy life. One could say this would also fall into the last category which are simply people, whether human or angels, who are in heaven. This is partly what is referred to as The Communion of Saints. They are in heaven interceding on our behalf as we read in Rev 5:8; 8:3-4; and 6:9-17. I suppose one could argue that this refers to the future, not the present. But if you recall at the Mount of Transfiguration Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah (Luke 9:30-31). Where did they come from? They were obviously neither sleeping, nor dead. Also Eph 3:15 – “For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named…” Apparently families still exist after death in heaven.

Hell: Matt. 25:46: “And these will go off to eternal punishment…” Also Rev. 14:11-12, and Sirach 14:16 which states, “Give, take and treat yourself well, for in the netherworld there will be no joys to seek.” , all illustrate that hell is real and eternal.

Purgatory: Again, we should think of purgatory as sanctification; a process which occurs both in this life and the life to come, and is only for those going to heaven. Matt. 12:32 implies that expiation (or atonement) can occur after death. In 1 John 5:16-17 the writer indicates that there are sins that are mortal and venial (or deadly, not deadly). Where do people go whose sins are not deadly, since they cannot yet enter heaven (Rev. 21:27 – “No unclean thing will enter heaven.”), and John indicates that their sin is not deadly so certainly not hell either. II Maccabbees 12:42-46 tells us that Judas (not Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus) offered up an expiatory sacrifice for the dead that they might be freed from sin. What good would the sacrifice be if they were in hell, and if they were already in heaven…same thing?

Hope that helps to answer your questions. I know it’s a lot, but there’s a lot involved in answering your questions.

I am not familiar with Maccabbees, or Sirach…sorry
Ok, just so I get this right. People who reject Jesus will go direct to hell, right after they die. People who are saints , will go to heaven as soon as they die. People who- have done what ??? are not forgiven by Jesus and go to purgatory. What is the definition of deadly and not deadly?

A few questions on hell… please
Would a loving God have people burn in hell forever?
Where do you put Rev. 14:11-12 in history of the world? Past, present or future?

Mat. 25:46 - I believe because we have a loving God that punishment does not go on forever. The " everlasting punishment", or “eternal fire”, is not a process that goes on forever, but an act whose results are permanent.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them “into ashes” as a warning to “those that after should live ungodly,” 2 Peter 2:6. These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned out. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.

Matthew 25:46 says the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

Thank you

 

[Genesius]

You Wrote: I am not familiar with Maccabbees, or Sirach…sorry

**Reply: **1st & 2nd Maccabees and Sirach are part of what Catholics call the Deuterocanon. Protestants call it the Apocrypha, but actually the Apocrypha contains books not in the Deuterocanon as well as some which are. These books were always part of the canon until the Protestant movement, and they still are as far as the ancient Church is concerned. It is thought by many that Luther removed them [he also wanted to remove other letters that both Catholics and Protestants recognize as inspired Scripture today such as Hebrews and James to name a few].

You Wrote: Ok, just so I get this right. People who reject Jesus will go direct to hell, right after they die. People who are saints, will go to heaven as soon as they die. People who- have done what ??? are not forgiven by Jesus and go to purgatory.

**Reply: **Yes to heaven and hell. Concerning Purgatory, you have misunderstood. People who are not sin-free, but who are in a state of grace (no mortal sin) go to purgatory…not because they are not forgiven, but because there are consequences to sin, both eternal and temporal (I never can remember which is which but I believe temporal refers to temporary consequences that can be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit. Eternal would be those consquences that remain for eternity, such as the consequences from a mortal sin such as murder which would also be a mortal sin). I believe it is the temporal consequences from venial sin that require us to be purged in the afterlife.

You Wrote: What is the definition of deadly and not deadly?

**Reply: **Deadly and not deadly is just another way of referring to Mortal and Venial sin. During His sermon on the mount Jesus gave a list of sinful lifestyles that make it impossible to enter heaven. I would imagine that this could be a good starting point in defining grave sin. There is much confusion on the difference between grave and mortal sin. Though they are sometimes both used synonymously, it has always been my understanding that a mortal sin has to have 3 conditions present; 1) it has to be a grave sin (I wish the Church had a list to refer to, but they don’t), 2) whoever commits it has to know it is grave, and 3) they have to commit it willingly with full consent (i.e. not be coerced, etc.). In other words, a person would have to pretty much totally reject God for it to be a mortal sin (I think).

An example of venial sin might be if someone who is a devout Christian cuts someone off in traffic just because they are temporarily angry with the other driver. It would not be mortal but the anger the person feels still puts a small wedge in their relationship with God. However, it can be easily repaired.

You Wrote: *A few questions on hell… please. Would a loving God have people burn in hell forever?
*
**Reply: **Yes… I don’t know…you would have to ask Him… But seriously, folks…I will attempt to answer this, but frankly as a finite human being with finite understanding I really would in a way have to stand by my humorous statement above. Frankly I don’t know why He does what He does, but I trust that His judgment is totally righteous. I know some people try to answer by saying that He doesn’t send anyone to hell…He simply gives us the power of choice, and when we reject Him we send ourselves. I would have to agree in a sense, that we do have access to the knowledge that hell is eternal. If we know that and still reject Him…? Does this diminish His great love for us? I heard it explained once like this. If my personality clashed with someone elses, would it be loving for them to force me to live with them for eternity? People who choose hell are actually fit for hell. They would be miserable being in the presence of God for eternity. Would it be better to allow them into heaven to make everyone else miserable?

However, having said all that, again…I believe any answer would fall short, after all…who can know the mind of God?

At this juncture I will have to continue answering in another post for the sake of time and volume.

P.S. If I don’t forget I will send you a joke on this very issue via private message

 

[Genesius]

You Wrote: Where do you put Rev. 14:11-12 in history of the world? Past, present or future?

Reply: I don’t know that I would *put *it anywhere in history. If I tried to, it would be futile anyway. I try to do as little speculation as I can when it comes to apocalyptic literature in Sacred Scripture, particularly Revelation. What many eschatologists fail to recognize about Revelation is that it was written in the same Hebrew style as many books in the OT, full of metaphorical language and numerology. I don’t mean numerology as some kind of sensationalist hidden meanings, but in the traditional Hebrew sense that numbers always indicated something about virtue or had some spiritual significance (i.e. the number 7 represents perfection, as in God rested on the 7th day, seeing His creation as good; the number 3 representing eternal things, and so forth).

However, Rev 14:11-12 speaks of hell. I don’t know that hell exists anywhere but all three, past, present, and future.

You Wrote: Matt. 25:46 - I believe because we have a loving God that punishment does not go on forever. The " everlasting punishment", or “eternal fire”, is not a process that goes on forever, but an act whose results are permanent.

Reply: I guess you can believe anything you want, but reality is reality. Either punishment is eternal or not. I don’t know how ‘everlasting’ can be anything but that. The logic just does not seem to follow. However, if your assessment is correct then I guess it is and we will all find out one way or another. Again, what I believe or don’t believe about something does not alter it’s reality. On a sidenote, just for your info, “everlasting” usually refers to length of time which has a beginning, whereas “eternal” refers to that which has no beginning or end, so technically, theologically speaking when referring to humans having eternal or everlasting life or hell, the term should be “everlasting” even though it is used interchangeably in Scripture.

You Wrote: Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them “into ashes” as a warning to “those that after should live ungodly,” 2 Peter 2:6. These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned out. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.

Reply: Okay, first lets put this in context.

Jude 7 - “Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah… serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” Notice it says they serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. That implies that they continue being punished, not just the supernatural divine fire that rained down upon them that day.

**2 Pet. 2:6: - “**and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (to destruction), reducing them to ashes, making them an example for the godless (people) of what is coming;” Notice, “…of what is coming;” This is descriptive of God’s wrath, not His mercy. The example of what is coming is a temporary example of the eternal punishment that awaits them.

Malachi 4:3 - Interestingly, chapter 4 does not appear in my Catholic Bible (I’ll have to investigate that). However, I still have a KJV that I looked in. Again, Malachi is a minor prophet and is speaking metaphorically or poetically much like the Psalter or Wisdom literature (Eccl. or Song of Solomon, etc.). This is not meant to be didactic literature (doctrinal, like as in many of St. Paul’s epistles).

You Wrote: Matthew 25:46 says the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

Reply: Again, the key term here is not punishment or punishing…it’s “everlasting”. Death by it’s very nature cannot be “everlasting”. It is final. The only difference between the terms “punishment” and “punishing” is the tense. “punishment” is an objective term, such as, “The punishment for a capital crime can be life in prison.”, whereas “punishing” is a verb describing the act of punishment. Notice in this example, life in prison is continuous.

Having said all that, I’m not sure how much of it is Catholic teaching or not; nor do I know how much of it is acceptable interpretation. It’s possible that the Church would allow for either of our interpretations; that perhaps the important thing to note is that those who reject God, and/or live unrighteously will pay the piper so to speak, whether permanently put out of commission or continously punished throughout eternity.

 

[Genesius]

Btw, BTTG, I want to sincerly thank you for the friendly debate. It helps to keep my mind sharp in my old age [49, some would say not old]…LOL… It also helps to keep my mind on spiritual matters. Hope the same is true with you. Godbless. Let’s have a cup of java…

 

[Genesius]

BTW, I looked into the Malachi thing and found that 3:19-24 in Catholic Bibles is the same as the entire of chapter 4 in KJV, and I suspect other Protestant Bibles. I don’t know why the divisions are different, but either way, it’s all there.

Ya lern som’n new everyday!