Heaven, Hell, And/Or Whatever

[BTTG]

Purgatory: Again, we should think of purgatory as sanctification; a process which occurs both in this life and the life to come, and is only for those going to heaven. Matt. 12:32 implies that expiation (or atonement) can occur after death. In 1 John 5:16-17 the writer indicates that there are sins that are mortal and venial (or deadly, not deadly). Where do people go whose sins are not deadly, since they cannot yet enter heaven (Rev. 21:27 – “No unclean thing will enter heaven.”), and John indicates that their sin is not deadly so certainly not hell either. II Maccabbees 12:42-46 tells us that Judas (not Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus) offered up an expiatory sacrifice for the dead that they might be freed from sin. What good would the sacrifice be if they were in hell, and if they were already in heaven…same thing?

Thank you for your in depth responses.

Why we do not need purgatory. Through the blood of Christ we are cleansed of all

sin. Sin is transgression of the law ( 10 commandments). God knows in our heart if we are sincere in our prayers in asking for repentance of all our sins.

In 1 John:15-15, the Christian knows that in our prayers when we ask God , our prayers will be answered. In the following verses John is talking about a specific type of prayer, that is done on anothers behalf. There are 2 types of sins, one in which there is hope and another in which there is no hope. The first type of prayer ( leading to life) is effective in the aid of redemption. The second prayer ( prayer unto death) in which there is no guarantee ( unpardonable sin - Mat 12:31, 32).
1 John 5:16-17 - This message is to a man who has an awareness of sin. He addresses “his brother” as fellow Christians. This Christian is in the act of actual committing a sin.
John is praying for the Christian brother in asking Christ to give him life. Then John is speaking about " to them" the general public who sin not until death.

The genuine repentance of sin will lead to life, but refusal to repent is to certain death. In the old testament a clear illustration is with Saul and David. Saul sinned and did not repent and thus died without hope of eternal life. David sinned and was forgiven and will be in God’s Kingdom.

In summary, not deadly = sins that Jesus forgives. Deadly sin = the unpardonable sin, and those people who do not repent of their sins.

When we commit one sin, we have committed all. I believe there is no need to go to purgatory, for if we are sincere and ask forgiveness, we are cleansed from all sin.

Rev 21:7 - When Christ abides in ones heart, there is purity of thought and manner. Jesus cleanses us from all our sins and thus when we are resurrected, by the grace of God, we will enter His Kingdom.

Mat 12:32 - my reading is “this world (age)”, when Jesus spoke those words. And “world (age) to come” is in the new heavens and new earth. Will not be forgiven in the “age to come” at that time when all those that are written in the books(the wicked) will stand in judgement before the Lord. At this world, the wicked will not be forgiven of their sins.

If our souls go to purgatory then we are immortal? When do we receive our immortal bodies at death, or at the second coming of Christ?

Would you be able to explain the following verses?

“So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”

“The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence”

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,”

Did David go to purgatory when he died? "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

thanks again for the discussion.

 

[Genesius]

Thank you for thanking me for my indepth response, and thank you for replying.

You wrote: “1 John 5:16-17 - This message is to a man who has an awareness of sin. He addresses “his brother” as fellow Christians. This Christian is in the act of actual committing a sin. John is praying for the Christian brother in asking Christ to give him life.”

Exactly. He is writing to a fellow Christian. If he is a fellow Christian and ALL his sins have been forgiven, why would John need to pray for him?

You wrote: “Why we do not need purgatory. Through the blood of Christ we are cleansed of all sin. Sin is transgression of the law (10 commandments). God knows in our heart if we are sincere in our prayers in asking for repentance of all our sins.”

and…“The genuine repentance of sin will lead to life, but refusal to repent is to certain death.”

Let’s say a couple is driving down the road. They get in an argument, crash, and then die before they have a chance to reconcile with one another and with God. When do they have an opportunity to repent? Remember, repentance is an act of turning away from sin, not just an emotional sense of sorrow and guilt.

I don’t know about you…maybe you are without sin. But most people still sin even after they get ‘saved’, regardless of the fact that they may have been redeemed…and most people by the time they reach death are still not totally sin-free. Remember, no unclean thing will enter heaven. Just because something is ‘covered’ does not mean it does’t exist. Even ‘covered’ sin cannot enter heaven.

Also, by ALL sin, I’m assuming you mean past, present, and future. How can I be forgiven for a sin I have not yet committed? Isn’t that kind of like premeditating a sin? Having said that I realize that Christ’s act on the cross was intended to redeem all mankind. He also knew that not all mankind would respond. Just like His act redeemed all sin, but that doesn’t mean that no sins would ever be committed. Clearly redemption is not the same as forgiveness. I can be redeemed and still reject Christ and not be forgiven.

What purgatory does is literally cleanse us…it purges away our sin so that we literally become holy and fit for heaven. Again, remember, purgatory is a sanctification process. All our lives we should be growing in holiness. Of course we cannot do it without the power of Christ. He is the one doing the purging. Until we are completely sin-free we cannot enter heaven. I believe some people do get to that point before they die and go straight to heaven, but they are few and far between.

Concerning the law being the 10 commandments I would say that’s probably a good starting point, and one could argue that all the over 600 commandments we find in the OT can be summarized in those 10, but then again many of those were cultural laws intended specifically for the ancient Hebrews (such as the old dietary laws and different kinds of animal sacrifices, etc.). Of course, we know that Jesus summarized the heart of the whole law when He told us to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves.

For further info on purgatory you can follow this link: catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

You can also read section III of the following link: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.shtml