Heaven & Hell

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HabemusFrancis said:
I can’t begin to imagine what Hell is like.

Contrary to what many believe, I don’t think its a fiery place and I don’t think people are on fire there. I think it is a dark, cold and fearful place where each passing day (or sequence…not sure there is time there.) Ther is a horrible feeling of despair and sadness.

You really…really do not want to end up there
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I agree, I really don’t.
 
Pope JP2 said heaven and hell “are states of being of a spirit or human soul”, rather than places as commonly perceived and represented in human language.

Can someone elaborate on that? How can Jesus and Mary be there, if he was correct?

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM
 
Faith1960 said:
Pope JP2 said heaven and hell “are states of being of a spirit or human soul”, rather than places as commonly perceived and represented in human language.

Can someone elaborate on that? How can Jesus and Mary be there, if he was correct?

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM
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What is your concept of being? Is being all about physical location?

Where is God? God is being itself. We share in that being.
If to be “in heaven” is to be united with God, then isn’t it proper to take that state of being into account, rather than simply insist on exalting location over being?

Human expressions will always be inadequate to describe such profound things that are full of mysterious depths.
 
Also, are Jesus and Mary, who are now glorified, incorporeal beings?

Never mind. I realized that incorporeal means not having a body, but more like a spirit and Jesus and Mary have their bodies, albeit glorified ones, so I guess that doesn’t make sense either, right?
 
God is OUTSIDE of the Universe, He is
“over” all that is created. Heaven might very
well be a place outside of the present
“heaven and earth”, King Solomon said:
“Even the highest heavens cannot contain
You, how much less this Temple I have
built for You” 1 Kings 8:27
There is a relativity as to WHERE is UP
(heaven) and BELOW(hell), as Phil. 2:10
says:"…all things in heaven on earth
and below the earth"
The prophets talk about the “nether world”
and “pit” (Eze. 32:24)
as a place for the repose for souls of
those who die.
 
GLam8833 said:
God is OUTSIDE of the Universe, He is
“over” all that is created. Heaven might very
well be a place outside of the present
“heaven and earth”, King Solomon said:
“Even the highest heavens cannot contain
You, how much less this Temple I have
built for You” 1 Kings 8:27
There is a relativity as to WHERE is UP
(heaven) and BELOW(hell), as Phil. 2:10
says:"…all things in heaven on earth
and below the earth"
The prophets talk about the “nether world”
and “pit” (Eze. 32:24)
as a place for the repose for souls of
those who die.
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What about what St. JP2 said (and I think Pope Benedict said the same thing) about heaven being a state of being?
 
Faith1960 said:
What about what St. JP2 said (and I think Pope Benedict said the same thing) about heaven being a state of being?
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What are you looking for specifically?
I gave a response to this a couple questions ago.
What do you think of that?
 
goout said:
What is your concept of being? Is being all about physical location?

Where is God? God is being itself. We share in that being.
If to be “in heaven” is to be united with God, then isn’t it proper to take that state of being into account, rather than simply insist on exalting location over being?

Human expressions will always be inadequate to describe such profound things that are full of mysterious depths.
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I think there must be SOME way to describe it.
 
Faith1960 said:
I want to know where Jesus and Mary are.
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Ok.
Do you want an address?
GPS coordinates?
A planet?

Jesus and Mary are one with the beatific vision. Time and space in the beatific vision are not what human beings perceive.

So how can anyone answer this question in the manner you are requesting it?
 
goout said:
Ok.
Do you want an address?
GPS coordinates?
A planet?

Jesus and Mary are one with the beatific vision. Time and space in the beatific vision are not what human beings perceive.
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So there must be some way of explaining it, even if it’s not 100% understandable. I mean, their BODIES must be somewhere, not just flying around. I can understand how God can be everywhere and outside the universe because He’s spirit, but Jesus and Mary aren’t spirits, they’re Glorified beings.
 
Faith1960 said:
So there must be some way of explaining it, even if it’s not 100% understandable. I mean, their BODIES must be somewhere, not just flying around. I can understand how God can be everywhere and outside the universe because He’s spirit, but Jesus and Mary aren’t spirits, they’re Glorified beings.
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Well, the theology around Jesus would be different than that of Mary, but for the purposes of discussion, you are right to say “glorified”…

What would be a good explanation for you?
Again, what are you looking for?
Address?
Planet?
Coordinates?

“Glorified”
If I had a grasp of that kind of glory, I wouldn’t be here. Saints have had visions of what this glory might be like. It would be good to consult them. One thing you won’t find is a physical locus. That’s a purely human thing. And you’re not going to find a Magisterial answer to your question.
 
Faith, we literally don’t know the answer to your question. God has not told us, and it’s the sort of information we’d have to get from Him.

We can infer that something like space and perhaps something like time exist, because there are bodies there (and will eventually be many more). On the other hand, these are bodies that can appear and disappear at will (as Jesus did after the Resurrection), so how their “space” works is mysterious to us.

We generally don’t think any longer that Heaven is literally in the sky or in space, because we can visit those places now and they are just normal, obeying the same laws that we do on Earth (which turns out to be one planet out of many orbiting one star out of many, rather than the center of the universe with Heaven above and Hell below).

“In a higher dimension” is a decent analogy, at least; I’ve used the notion to illustrate how God could possibly exist “outside” of time and space as we know them, using similar examples to those of Edwin Abbott Abbott’s Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions. However, I suspect that any higher dimensions we discover will turn out to be part of the created universe just like space and time, and so even that is probably not a good bet for where Heaven “actually” is.

The “state of the soul” idea is the most important part of what Heaven is, because the key to Heaven is being in the unveiled presence of God, and of course God is everywhere. When Jesus was Incarnate, or when Mary since her Assumption has appeared to visionaries on Earth, they didn’t have to “leave” Heaven to do it, but were always in possession of the Beatific Vision. Hell is similar, and according to some ideas may be literally the same thing (the unfiltered reality of God) as experienced by those who have refused to let God mold them into something that can receive and reflect His love rather than being pained by it. Hence when we imagine demons going about in our world to tempt us, we don’t have to wonder how they “got out” of Hell, because their spirits are always experiencing Hell.
 
Usagi said:
Faith, we literally don’t know the answer to your question. God has not told us, and it’s the sort of information we’d have to get from Him.

We can infer that something like space and perhaps something like time exist, because there are bodies there (and will eventually be many more). On the other hand, these are bodies that can appear and disappear at will (as Jesus did after the Resurrection), so how their “space” works is mysterious to us.

We generally don’t think any longer that Heaven is literally in the sky or in space, because we can visit those places now and they are just normal, obeying the same laws that we do on Earth (which turns out to be one planet out of many orbiting one star out of many, rather than the center of the universe with Heaven above and Hell below).

“In a higher dimension” is a decent analogy, at least; I’ve used the notion to illustrate how God could possibly exist “outside” of time and space as we know them, using similar examples to those of Edwin Abbott Abbott’s Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions. However, I suspect that any higher dimensions we discover will turn out to be part of the created universe just like space and time, and so even that is probably not a good bet for where Heaven “actually” is.
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But it’s also possible that scientists won’t be able to discover and access higher dimensions to find out, right?

catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/who-art-in-heaven-the-dwelling-place-of-god.html
 
Faith1960 said:
But it’s also possible that scientists won’t be able to discover and access higher dimensions to find out, right?
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Right, that’s why it’s called a higher dimension, because it’s above our ability to reason and access fully.
Mystery.
 
goout said:
Right, that’s why it’s called a higher dimension, because it’s above our ability to reason and access fully.
Mystery.
Click to expand...
I’ve been reading up on dimensions and while it’s mostly over my head, it seems like scientists do know a lot about it.
 
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