M
- Status
S
sandusky
Guest
I understand the point you’re driving at Mike.
In order for you to be consistent with your point—that the elect can lose salvation—you must also be consistent with the passage, that once salvation is lost, according to this verse, it can never be regained; therefore, all who leave the RCC have lost their salvation, and they cannot regain it through reversion.
This passage does not allow for going back, and forth, or, for falling in, and out of grace.
Unless, of course, you don’t care about being consistent.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
the versus doesn’t discuss grace. Salvation as understood by the Church of Christ, not the calvin understand. It is inconsistent with the calvin understanding. Proving the point.I understand the point you’re driving at Mike.
In order for you to be consistent with your point—that the elect can lose salvation—you must also be consistent with the passage, that once salvation is lost, according to this verse, it can never be regained; therefore, all who leave the RCC have lost their salvation, and they cannot regain it through reversion.
This passage does not allow for going back, and forth, or, for falling in, and out of grace.
Unless, of course, you don’t care about being consistent.
S
sandusky
Guest
Whatever that means. :hypno:
M
mikeledes
Guest
Those who are predestined to glory will not be lost. But community of the justified is not coextensive with those predestined to glory. In this passage, Paul (? ) specifically has in view those who have fallen away and will obstinately remain in that state. They will not come back because they have completely hardened their hearts. God will allow these to remain in that state.I understand the point you’re driving at Mike.
In order for you to be consistent with your point—that the elect can lose salvation—you must also be consistent with the passage, that once salvation is lost, according to this verse, it can never be regained; therefore, all who leave the RCC have lost their salvation, and they cannot regain it through reversion.
This passage does not allow for going back, and forth, or, for falling in, and out of grace.
Unless, of course, you don’t care about being consistent.
God Bless,
Michael
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
The author is not speaking of ones whom are** SAVED**!
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Mike my friend how long does salvation go on?
J
juliamajor
Guest
Hebrews 6 is about apostates from Christianity-not denominations
Foolish me I forgot according to alot Of Protestants Catholics aren’t Christian-what a faux pas
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
All right, you’ve fallen from grace–that doesn’t mean you inevitably ever knew grace. It means you have fallen away from grace as a principle, there’s a lot of ways to explain that. But basically what he’s saying is that if you live by law you have fallen from the principle of grace, whether you’re a regenerate or unregenerate. If I go out and try to live my Christian life legalistically I’ve fallen from the grace principle, right? So he’s writing to believers and he’s saying if you’re going to live your life by law, having begun in the Spirit are you perfected by the flesh? If you’re going to start living by law you have fallen away from grace as a principle of living. That’s all. You have to see the context there.Hebrews 6 is about apostates from Christianity-not denominations
L
Linkowski
Guest
In Hebrews 6:4-6 - we have the word “partaker” that you are trying to squeeze. This can mean multiple things and is used in different ways in scripture. You cannot simply say…"it is used this way in this text and so it has to mean the same thing in another text”. When you look at those scriptures that indicate one is willfully rejecting Christ (blaspheming the Holy Spirit), they are simply evidencing that they are a goat and not a sheep…
John 10:27 **My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:**28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
It is the sheep that hear His voice and follow. Hebrews 6:4-6 is, again, accompained by verse 9…
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Though we are speaking this way - we are expecting other things - THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION.
We have Hebrews 10:26-29 which starts off this way…
Hebrews 10:26 For **if we sin willfully **after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Again - what does 1John say??
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
You do not seem to want to hear those scriptures…
Your word, “sanctified” in Heb 10:29 that you flash about regularly is overshadowed by Heb 10:14…
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are (being) sanctified.
The word “sanctified” can be used in many different ways as it is used in verse 29 (I have pointed out it’s use in 1 Corinthians 7 before).
Hebrews 10:14 is accompanied by John 13:10:
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
You also have another problem in this passsage - at the end it says…
Heb 10:39 But **we are not of those **who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
John says after a similar passage (1John 5:16 - Sin leading to death)…
1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
He is saying the same thing…the people who draw back never were - BUT we are of God!!
Cont’d
John 10:27 **My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:**28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
It is the sheep that hear His voice and follow. Hebrews 6:4-6 is, again, accompained by verse 9…
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Though we are speaking this way - we are expecting other things - THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION.
We have Hebrews 10:26-29 which starts off this way…
Hebrews 10:26 For **if we sin willfully **after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Again - what does 1John say??
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
You do not seem to want to hear those scriptures…
Your word, “sanctified” in Heb 10:29 that you flash about regularly is overshadowed by Heb 10:14…
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are (being) sanctified.
The word “sanctified” can be used in many different ways as it is used in verse 29 (I have pointed out it’s use in 1 Corinthians 7 before).
Hebrews 10:14 is accompanied by John 13:10:
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
You also have another problem in this passsage - at the end it says…
Heb 10:39 But **we are not of those **who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
John says after a similar passage (1John 5:16 - Sin leading to death)…
1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
He is saying the same thing…the people who draw back never were - BUT we are of God!!
Cont’d
D
deanarrca
Guest
This is my personal observation only, but this is kind of how I see this verse playing out with someone I know quite well. This person I know is a self-professing OSAS, self-professing Born Again Christian. However I (along with others) know that he has committed a heinous and horrible sin. Catholics would call it a very grave mortal sin). Anyway this person has justified this sin in his heart to the point he doesn’t feel it was a sin. Since he has justified this sin to the point he believes it is no longer a sin, he feels no need to repent of it. The human heart has a huge capacity for denial. He can no longer be brought to repentance because he now feels he has nothing to repent of.
Actually I guess I was thinking more of the passage in
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
L
Linkowski
Guest
Cont’d
You also have another mortal sin passage…
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
You continually bring up this scripture (in this context) to assume the word “bought” means the false teachers of this text are saved…justified…
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Again - clear reading of 1 John and other passages indicate - "they went out from us - they were not of us…if they were of us the WOULD HAVE CONTINUED - but they manifested their being a Judas - a goat. In a sense that the sacrifice of Christ is infinitely sufficient for the salvation of all men…
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
But, not all will be saved…you cannot squeeze this phrase for what you want it to say - it contradicts many other scriptures…
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
They do not have God and never did. They never were in Christ…
Your insinuation is that people can come to Christ and be justified and then lose their salvation later. NOBODY can come to Him unless the Father effectually draws them and the WILL be raised at the last day.
Joh 6:44 "*No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.*Joh 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that **no one can come to Me unless **it has been granted him from the Father.”
Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
Only the elect can come and be justified!
Those people who fall away never were born again…I will bring up the parable of the sower at this point…
Lu 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
Were the second and third person born again (as you claim)?? Hardly…they would not make God GOD – The second person had faith without repentance in that they held their relations with man in higher esteem than God…Christ was not the pearl of great price…a superficial human faith. The second person had the fleeting pleasures of life still in their grasp – the cares, riches…thorns. They were the fruitless ones…they did not hear the gospel with repentant faith…again they were holding other things/people more dearly to themselves than God and these things lead to their demise…
Lu 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
Put this in view of the parable of the dragnet in Matthew 13…
Mt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Cont’d
You also have another mortal sin passage…
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
You continually bring up this scripture (in this context) to assume the word “bought” means the false teachers of this text are saved…justified…
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Again - clear reading of 1 John and other passages indicate - "they went out from us - they were not of us…if they were of us the WOULD HAVE CONTINUED - but they manifested their being a Judas - a goat. In a sense that the sacrifice of Christ is infinitely sufficient for the salvation of all men…
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
But, not all will be saved…you cannot squeeze this phrase for what you want it to say - it contradicts many other scriptures…
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
They do not have God and never did. They never were in Christ…
Your insinuation is that people can come to Christ and be justified and then lose their salvation later. NOBODY can come to Him unless the Father effectually draws them and the WILL be raised at the last day.
Joh 6:44 "*No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.*Joh 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that **no one can come to Me unless **it has been granted him from the Father.”
Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
Only the elect can come and be justified!
Those people who fall away never were born again…I will bring up the parable of the sower at this point…
Lu 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
Were the second and third person born again (as you claim)?? Hardly…they would not make God GOD – The second person had faith without repentance in that they held their relations with man in higher esteem than God…Christ was not the pearl of great price…a superficial human faith. The second person had the fleeting pleasures of life still in their grasp – the cares, riches…thorns. They were the fruitless ones…they did not hear the gospel with repentant faith…again they were holding other things/people more dearly to themselves than God and these things lead to their demise…
Lu 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
Put this in view of the parable of the dragnet in Matthew 13…
Mt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Cont’d
L
Linkowski
Guest
Cont’d
They were never saved…put them in the category of tares in the parable of wheat and tares. These are goats, my friend, that “look like” sheep for a while.
Those who have the faith of the fourth person are the ones that hear the gospel and it penetrates DEEP because of their repentance – turning to Christ as their supreme Lord – treasure – pearl of great price. Nobody will shake them – and they bring forth fruit with perseverance. This is the person born again…others have superficial, human, demonic, useless, and dead faith.
Mt 15:13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
You say that elect people can lose their salvation…BUT, even if this was true, does not God know that they will repent and get right? Does God, in cyclical fashion, pronouce…”justified”…”Oops – condemned”…”OHHH – wait – justified!!”…”On no…condemned”…Not a chance.
The difference for the sheep is we have Christ praying for us…
Lu 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
And He prays in accordance with the will of the Father.
Only the elect can be justified and they will persevere…yes, they need to persevere and they do so by the grace and keeping of God who gives a faith that never dies. Do, they ever fall…yes…do they get up – yes…
Pr 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.
Ps 37:24 When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand.
Pr 4:18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day.
Those that fall away had a mere human form of self righteousness and pride – which comes before the fall as we are told in proverbs…and a proud faith is as much a contradiction as a humble devil.
Do they need the Word of God, Yes – do they need the people of God, yes…will they have evidence of their salvation, yes…Do they need to pay heed to the warnings…yes. And they will.
Hebrews gives warning for all to persevere - of course. This is necessary for the keeping of the elect…it says…
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
We are to examine ourselves to make sure that we are in the faith (make certain of God’s calling and choosing us)…we are to strive to fight against the world and its influence that it exerts against us. It is a real battle…those that fall…what can we say?
Heb 3:16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Make sure you are a believer - make sure you are a beliver…pray, fight, strive against the world…the elect will persevere because “greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world”. Those who end up loving the world…
Jas 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
And if we hold fast…we prove that we were united to Christ (Hebrews 3:6,14)…
cont’d
They were never saved…put them in the category of tares in the parable of wheat and tares. These are goats, my friend, that “look like” sheep for a while.
Those who have the faith of the fourth person are the ones that hear the gospel and it penetrates DEEP because of their repentance – turning to Christ as their supreme Lord – treasure – pearl of great price. Nobody will shake them – and they bring forth fruit with perseverance. This is the person born again…others have superficial, human, demonic, useless, and dead faith.
Mt 15:13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
You say that elect people can lose their salvation…BUT, even if this was true, does not God know that they will repent and get right? Does God, in cyclical fashion, pronouce…”justified”…”Oops – condemned”…”OHHH – wait – justified!!”…”On no…condemned”…Not a chance.
The difference for the sheep is we have Christ praying for us…
Lu 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
And He prays in accordance with the will of the Father.
Only the elect can be justified and they will persevere…yes, they need to persevere and they do so by the grace and keeping of God who gives a faith that never dies. Do, they ever fall…yes…do they get up – yes…
Pr 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.
Ps 37:24 When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand.
Pr 4:18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day.
Those that fall away had a mere human form of self righteousness and pride – which comes before the fall as we are told in proverbs…and a proud faith is as much a contradiction as a humble devil.
Do they need the Word of God, Yes – do they need the people of God, yes…will they have evidence of their salvation, yes…Do they need to pay heed to the warnings…yes. And they will.
Hebrews gives warning for all to persevere - of course. This is necessary for the keeping of the elect…it says…
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
We are to examine ourselves to make sure that we are in the faith (make certain of God’s calling and choosing us)…we are to strive to fight against the world and its influence that it exerts against us. It is a real battle…those that fall…what can we say?
Heb 3:16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Make sure you are a believer - make sure you are a beliver…pray, fight, strive against the world…the elect will persevere because “greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world”. Those who end up loving the world…
Jas 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
And if we hold fast…we prove that we were united to Christ (Hebrews 3:6,14)…
cont’d
L
Linkowski
Guest
cont’d
If you do not read anything - read this…what makes the difference between you and I - I say that people that fall away never were saved. You say that they were justified and lost it. This all stems from a false doctrine that babies are born again through your baptism - that they are justified. This little bit of leaven leavens your lump of doctrine and FORCES you to make this insinuation. I have explained very clearly on the thread, “The Case for Infant Baptism” that infant baptism is not biblical and does not fit in the the whole of scripture. That is the main difference. It is clear as crystal…if you follow men to the degree that you do, you fall into their error. Please take note, I have many a time made the decision to go back to the CC…clearly indicating that I am attempting to follow the scripture…not my Pastor. I never actually did go back those 4 times. I do not follw man…I follow the clear teachings
If you do not read anything - read this…what makes the difference between you and I - I say that people that fall away never were saved. You say that they were justified and lost it. This all stems from a false doctrine that babies are born again through your baptism - that they are justified. This little bit of leaven leavens your lump of doctrine and FORCES you to make this insinuation. I have explained very clearly on the thread, “The Case for Infant Baptism” that infant baptism is not biblical and does not fit in the the whole of scripture. That is the main difference. It is clear as crystal…if you follow men to the degree that you do, you fall into their error. Please take note, I have many a time made the decision to go back to the CC…clearly indicating that I am attempting to follow the scripture…not my Pastor. I never actually did go back those 4 times. I do not follw man…I follow the clear teachings
S
sandusky
Guest
Forgive me, Mike, I phrased your point badly; I know you believe that the elect to glory—with respect to salvation, the only kind of elect scripture knows—will never perish.
Here’s where we disagree; scripture knows those who are elect, and those who are not elect.
Scripture does not know a middle ground between those two—vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory—there is no middle ground.
The passage says nothing about "obstinancy, or hardened hearts,” but is stating the penalty meted out to those who leave the community of believers (cf 1 Jn 2:19).
In a Catholic context, the penalty is that, those who leave the One True Church (OTC), and go to what Benedict just recently called, a church that is not “a true church,” or if they leave and go to no church at all, their leaving the OTC renders future repentance AN IMPOSSIBILITY.
Any Catholic, baptized in the RCC, according to RCC theology, has been regenerated, or born-again, of the spirit, and is, what you call above, a “genuine believer;” therefore, in order for you to be consistent with the passage, it must, in the RCC context, apply to reverts.
(Baptismal regeneration gives a false sense of security.
)
D
deanarrca
Guest
Again this is on a personal level from my personal experience and observation- Your arguments (referring to Linkowski’s posts) are great intellectually, I have heard them all before. The problem is when you are dealing with real people and real situations in real churches. This interpretation is totally detrimental to spiritual growth and transformation. If I took your arguments to the logical conclusion then the majority of people who truly believe, (truly at this moment in time believe they are born again and saved) may actually have a false security because if they don’t persevere to the end,- lets say fall away, they were never saved to begin with. Therefore most of the people in the pews of my evangelical church who are willfully sinning aren’t really saved. (and as an almost Catholic I too believe if they are continuing to willfully sin they aren’t in a state of saving grace) Yet OSAS is preached in the pulpit, so they think they are saved so therfore they aren’t really making an effort to grow into Christ because they don’t need to (because that would be then works salvation anyway which is wrong) so they continue to wallow in their sin thinking they are saved. However on the other hand, there is also another group in same said church that recognize their sin and acknowledge they were never saved (according to this interpretation) to begin with, so they repent and rededicate themselves to Christ and make the profession for Christ so they can be saved , over and over every time they fall into sin.
It is a vicious cycle. With the supposed assurance of eternal security, in reality there is no assurance of security. I don’t know if I’m expressing this clearly at all. But the church I was in there was always this funny dichotomy- They preached eternal security
but everyone was always judging everyone else and always doubted everyone elses salvation. Therefore everyone put on their best holier than thou performance lest someone else might doubt their salvation.
Just my experience-
M
mikeledes
Guest
Please provide examples of the word “partaker” used in the way you use it. Also, the following verses do not overshadow “sanctify.” Or can a person that is not genuinely saved by sanctified by the blood of Christ and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit?
God Bless,
Michael
C
clmowry
Guest
This is just silly. If you are going to tell a Catholic what the Catholic Theology is then at least state Catholic Theology.In a Catholic context, the penalty is that, those who leave the One True Church (OTC), and go to what Benedict just recently called, a church that is not “a true church,” or if they leave and go to no church at all, their leaving the OTC renders future repentance AN IMPOSSIBILITY.
Any Catholic, baptized in the RCC, according to RCC theology, has been regenerated, or born-again, of the spirit, and is, what you call above, a "genuine believer;" therefore, in order for you to be consistent with the passage, it must, in the RCC context, apply to reverts.
(Baptismal regeneration gives a false sense of security.
Please show me where the Catholic Church teaches anything close to what you are claiming here.
Chuck
S
sandusky
Guest
I’m not telling anyone what Catholic theology is; rather, I’m putting Mike’s argument concerning Heb 6:4-6 in a Catholic context.
P
Pax
Guest
Linkowski,
Please try to think about Hebrews without preconceived ideas. You misunderstand the apostle John and you are attempting to superimpose this misunderstanding on the book of Hebrews as if this was a logical approach to prove your point. Your attempts to argue that the people addressed in Hebrews are not justified Christians is utterly refuted by the Book itself. You are hung up on the misconception that we are justified at a single point in time and are forever from that moment saved. That simply is not true and the Book of Hebrews is part of the bible for the express purpose, among other things, to demonstrate that point.
The author of the book of Hebrews is talking to believers when he gives a warning. In Hebrews 2:1 it says “Therefore we must pay closer attention to what **we **have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.” These are Christians that have been justified and they are warned not to drift away or they will suffer the eternal consequences of hell. In Hebrews 6:4-8 it says, For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” Clearly these are justified Christians because they are partakers of the Holy Spirit, yet they do not have the grace to persevere and they go into apostasy. Once in apostasy they are done for.
You believe that those that are justified are justified only once and that they will “as a complete package” persevere until the end. The above verses indicate otherwise. But if that isn’t enough lets move on to Hebrews 10:26-27 where it says, “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.” The author then goes on in verses 28-31, “A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Once again this warning is made to those who have already been justified. If all of those that were justified were all going to persevere then there is no point in making these warnings.
Moreover, the author of Hebrews uses the word “we” over and over again in his letter. All of what the author says, therefore, applies to the author as well as those that recieve the epistle. Are you going to tell me that the author of Hebrews was never justified? Clearly, this is not the case.
Please try to think about Hebrews without preconceived ideas. You misunderstand the apostle John and you are attempting to superimpose this misunderstanding on the book of Hebrews as if this was a logical approach to prove your point. Your attempts to argue that the people addressed in Hebrews are not justified Christians is utterly refuted by the Book itself. You are hung up on the misconception that we are justified at a single point in time and are forever from that moment saved. That simply is not true and the Book of Hebrews is part of the bible for the express purpose, among other things, to demonstrate that point.
The author of the book of Hebrews is talking to believers when he gives a warning. In Hebrews 2:1 it says “Therefore we must pay closer attention to what **we **have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.” These are Christians that have been justified and they are warned not to drift away or they will suffer the eternal consequences of hell. In Hebrews 6:4-8 it says, For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” Clearly these are justified Christians because they are partakers of the Holy Spirit, yet they do not have the grace to persevere and they go into apostasy. Once in apostasy they are done for.
You believe that those that are justified are justified only once and that they will “as a complete package” persevere until the end. The above verses indicate otherwise. But if that isn’t enough lets move on to Hebrews 10:26-27 where it says, “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.” The author then goes on in verses 28-31, “A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Once again this warning is made to those who have already been justified. If all of those that were justified were all going to persevere then there is no point in making these warnings.
Moreover, the author of Hebrews uses the word “we” over and over again in his letter. All of what the author says, therefore, applies to the author as well as those that recieve the epistle. Are you going to tell me that the author of Hebrews was never justified? Clearly, this is not the case.
- Status