Hebrews 12:1 is not a proof that the saints can hear us

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I’m having a discussion with this “Born Again Christian” who refuses to accept Hebrews 12:1 as proof saints can hear us. Here is his response:

“If you would pay attention to the context, Hebrews 12:1 is in reference to the great cloud of witnesses we have to look back on their experiences . Its not about people in heaven standing around watching us.”

I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Thank you all in advance 🙂
 
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Who do they think is “in the cloud?” Ask them that. Because there are no clouds here on ground level!
 
He added this to his response:

"Did Moses not witness the work of the Lord?
Did Abraham not witness the work of God?
Did Enoch not witness the work of the Lord?

Those are the witnesses that surround us. We can read of how they witnessed the work of the Lord"

I think what he wants to say is that it was the work of the Lord in their lifetime they are a witness to and not that they are witnessing to us now.
 
The KEY WORD here is “witnesses”, or spectators at
the olympics, they can both see AND hears us!!
 
Ask your friend about the 12 Apostles if the witnessed the work of the Lord.
 
He is pointing at Chapter 11 for context. I think what he wants to say is that it was the work of the Lord in their Lifetime they are a witness to and not that they are witnessing to us now.
 
The Scriptures continue with “…let us run with patience the
race set before us” St. Paul used the illustration of boxers
training for the “Games”, the similitude of the use of Racing
is just the same, there are People watching, “witnesses”!!
 
Hello DM_P, Revelation 6:10 does affirm the people in Heaven are alive in spirit standing around watching us, as They stated “How long Oh Sovereign Lord, holy and true, and standing around watching us, until you judge the people of the earth…”, just as the angels rejoice over one repentant sinner, (Luke 15:10), Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God, states we TOO shall be become like angels when die, (Luke 20:36), as Angels are Ministering Spirits. (Hebrews 1;14). Peace always in the Most Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, Our Good and Great God and Saviour
 
One more thing, maybe he’s also betting on these verses to prove his context:

Hebrews 11:5-6
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Maybe someone can explain this too. Thank you
 
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Hi Chieft, thanks for your response, but i cant seem to see how this relates to the topic?
 
By what authority does he make this private interpretation? Ask him if his interpretation is infallible - not even the Pope claims that over scripture. Do not expect him to believe something that he has never tried; never benefited from. Catholics have 2,000 years of intercession by the Saints. We ask their intercession because it works.

A “cloud of witnesses” - who do they witness to? And, about whom to they witness? Each other? Nonsense! Have him read Revelation 5:8 where the 24 elders (Saints) present our petitions before the throne of God. Have him read Revelation 8:3. The prayers of the Saints rise to the throne of God. Does he deny that? Tell him that Catholics go by the entire bible, not just scattered verses that are easily twisted.

Witnesses provide testimony. To whom? In heaven there is Father, Son and Spirit to witness to. They do not witness for themselves as that is also nonsense. They witness for us!

Like the Sadducees, he is badly mislead - by himself! Let him stew in his error - but pray for him that the Holy Spirit convict him of his error.
 
I was answering on the premise many Protestants don’t believe any Biblical testimony of the Saints interceding for us or hearing our petitions. Many profound miracles have occurred proving the Saints DO hear our prayers. This evidence emphasizes your point. One of such intercessions by Saint John Paul illustrated above attached to my post.

Sorry. I’m really tired. Maybe I read your post wrong.
 
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also support it with Mathew 22-32. Since Abraham is mentioned as being in the cloud just previous to Hebrews 12-1

Matt 22-32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.”
 
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The Catholic Church does not base its understanding of the communion of saints on Hebrews 12:1 – or any one passage, for that matter.

Maybe let him know that the same Christians who finally decided to have Hebrews in the canon also had a solidly Catholic understanding of saints?

Have you discussed authority and sola scriptura with him yet?
 
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I have studied John Salza, as well as Patrick Madrid, as well as Tim Staples, and others who have been so helpful with Catholic apologetics! please forgive me though, as I was just going to post the verse numbers, and then decided to cite the words, but forgot to delete the “standing around watching us” as cited in your question, which is not in Revelation,. I hope you are doing well. Peace always in the Most Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, Our Good and Great God and Saviour
 
Thanx for clarifying, I read the verse and it confused me
why you put that there.
 
Nothing written is “proof” of anything other than that the written instrument itself exists.

The proof of prayer to the Saints is RESULTS.

It would not have been done for thousands of years if it was not efficacious.
 
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