Hebrews 12:23 Proof of Purgatory?

[Michael68]

Umm, Purgatory?

And, oops! I just noticed that Porthos himself dealt with the grammatical issue back in post #8. Uff-da on me!

So even with my grammatical error, this is NT evidence for the existence of Purgatory. I had always been told there was no reference to Purgatory in the NT and like I said before this verse jumped out at me during Mass as evidence. (I should not have used the word proof!)

 

[porthos11]

Umm, Purgatory?

And, oops! I just noticed that Porthos himself dealt with the grammatical issue back in post #8. Uff-da on me!

So we believe.

However, the question was “is this proof?” for Evangelicals.

The answer is no because the Evangelical can simply say “men are made perfect when they accept Jesus into their hearts as Lord and Saviour, therefore, no Purgatory needed.”

No, the best allusion to Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:15, not this verse. It supports Purgatory, but it doesn’t prove it. The Evangelicals have a perfectly sound answer to it because of their foundational beliefs.

 

[Michael68]

So do we believe.

However, the question was “is this proof?” for Evangelicals.

The answer is no because the Evangelical can simply say “men are made perfect when they accept Jesus into their hearts as Lord and Saviour, therefore, no Purgatory needed.”

No, the best allusion to Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:15, not this verse. It supports Purgatory, but it doesn’t prove it. The Evangelicals have a perfectly sound answer to it because of their foundational beliefs.

The evangelicals would say that is the Lake of Fire. And I have another Purgatory verse!

 

[porthos11]

The evangelicals would say that is the Lake of Fire. And I have another Purgatory verse!

Uhm, the lake of fire, for both Catholics and Evangelicals, is hell.

Not sure what “Purgatory verse” you’re talking about. If you’re referring to 1 Cor 3:15, no, the Evangelical cannot call it the lake of fire because Revelation clearly calls it the “second death” and the torment is forever. 1 Cor 3:15, however is clear: even if a man’s works are found lacking and he suffers loss as though through fire, he himself is saved.

This clearly eliminates this as a reference to hell or a lake of fire.

 

[steido01]

Firstly, this passage seems to have nothing to do with Purgatory, if you ask me. It seems more that the author is comparing Mt. Sinai (where Moses said, “I tremble in fear”) to Mt. Zion - the New Jerusalem. In other words, he’s comparing earth to heaven. But I do think a relevant question was asked.

Ok, so where are just men made perfect?

Let’s look at the context. In this case, the top of the chapter is a good place to start. The author explains rather clearly that we should be looking to Jesus. And that’s where we’re “made perfect;” where Jesus made it so – the cross.

Christians can encounter that eternal Sacrifice and that brilliant foretaste of eternity in the Lord’s Supper. And the author of Hebrews explains quite beautifully what we encounter at the Table:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Time is a silly thing in eternity. Purgation is less a place, or even a state of being – it’s an instant that has already happened, though we may not have yet experienced its full effects. It took place on Golgotha, 2000 years ago and at the Divine Service every Sunday morning.

 

[Reuben_J]

Let’s look at the context. In this case, the top of the chapter is a good place to start. The author explains rather clearly that we should be looking to Jesus. And that’s where we’re “made perfect;” where Jesus made it so – the cross.

There is a flaw here too. True, we are made perfect with the grace of Calvary but only if we cooperate with it fully. In other word, perfect contrition.

If there is no perfect contrition or insufficient or lack of it, we are still imperfect but it is not enough to condemn us to hell nor sufficient to bring us to heaven.

Seem to me there is nowhere where we can omit purgatory.

 

[Michael68]

There is a flaw here too. True, we are made perfect with the grace of Calvary but only if we cooperate with it fully. In other word, perfect contrition.

If there is no perfect contrition or insufficient or lack of it, we are still imperfect but it is not enough to condemn us to hell nor sufficient to bring us to heaven.

Seem to me there is nowhere where we can omit purgatory.

Some protestants believe that grace covers you when you sin. It has given momentum to this hyper-grace movement seen in TV ministries.They have given themselves a license to sin

 

[DaveBj]

There is a flaw here too. True, we are made perfect with the grace of Calvary but only if we cooperate with it fully. In other word, perfect contrition.

If there is no perfect contrition or insufficient or lack of it, we are still imperfect but it is not enough to condemn us to hell nor sufficient to bring us to heaven.

Seem to me there is nowhere where we can omit purgatory.

Excellent insight

 

[steido01]

There is a flaw here too. True, we are made perfect with the grace of Calvary but only if we cooperate with it fully. In other word, perfect contrition.

If there is no perfect contrition or insufficient or lack of it, we are still imperfect but it is not enough to condemn us to hell nor sufficient to bring us to heaven.

That would be the Roman Catholic view, yes. I was careful with my explanation so that it would be acceptable as true to Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and many Anglicans. I didn’t go into the detail.

Seem to me there is nowhere where we can omit purgatory.

Again, I was careful not to necessarily omit purgation, even though I shied away from Purgatory as an actual place. This is an acceptable view for Roman Catholics, and one that, to me at least, seems to place a better focus on Christ rather than on our own works. We should, as the author of Hebrew states, keep our eyes fixed on Christ.

Some protestants believe that grace covers you when you sin. It has given momentum to this hyper-grace movement seen in TV ministries.They have given themselves a license to sin

The idea that God’s Grace covers us even through sin is not a blanket endorsement of the antinomianism of the hyper grace nuts. See Bonhoeffer’s works on “Cheap Grace,” or Luther on faith and works being akin to heat and light from a flame.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

There is a flaw here too. True, we are made perfect with the grace of Calvary but only if we cooperate with it fully. In other word, perfect contrition.

If there is no perfect contrition or insufficient or lack of it, we are still imperfect but it is not enough to condemn us to hell nor sufficient to bring us to heaven.

Seem to me there is nowhere where we can omit purgatory.

Some protestants believe that grace covers you when you sin. It has given momentum to this hyper-grace movement seen in TV ministries.They have given themselves a license to sin

In all fairness, protestants as a whole do try to avoid sin in general. You can see a discernible difference in their lives when they have the “come to Jesus” moment.

My problem is with the message OSAS sends to those who are entrenched in any addictive sin. It sends the false message that yes, I am addicted and stuck in this sin ___(insert here) but I’m saved by God’s grace so I don’t really have to try and combat anymore. That’s a false understanding as we are called to holiness here and now.

And on the topic of the thread, didn’t Luther claim we are dung covered in snow, thus ready for heaven immediately? Isn’t dung still dung no matter what it is covered with?