Hebrews 6:4-6 exposed

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Hello All-

As prone as I am to irrational behavior, I am not so foolish as to continue to mislead and entertain allis’ delusions.
Her prescript “forever baptist” really says it all - she is “baptist” first and Truth seeker only if its stumbles into her fixed theology.
I personally recommend ignoring her posts until she demonstrates the capacity to absorb what we are giving her intellectually and proactively acknowledges when our arguments - though contrary to hers - are valid.
Until then we’re just killin’ our keyboards…

Don’t believe me? Think Im being inconsiderate?

Pick a thread, any thread, that she has started and follow it to its end and ask yourself is this person looking for Truth or not?
 
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allischalmers:
I"m sorry, millions of Spirit filled people can not all be wrong.

forever baptist allischalmers
Oh, baby, yes they can. That’s exactly what you allege about Catholics. Or, they’re not spirit-filled. Remember, since you can only tell us what your interpretation is, and can’t say definitively what something in scripture means, anything you accuse Catholics of can be thrown right back your direction.
 
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allischalmers:
I"m sorry, millions of Spirit filled people can not all be wrong.

forever baptist allischalmers
Scofield has no teaching authority (apostolic succession) and his teachings contradict the “deposit of faith”. He is a false prophet which we were warned about in Mark 13: 21-23
 
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allischalmers:
I"m sorry, millions of Spirit filled people can not all be wrong.

forever baptist allischalmers
Sure they can, or sinse you seem to like to tally up numbers, contrasted against 1.1 billion Spirit filled catholics, 100’s Spirit filled Apostolic bishops given authority (Matthew, Luke, Mark, John, Timothy, Titus, Thessalonians, Acts).

So far the spirit that has been tested has failed the test, miserably.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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allischalmers:
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Nicene:
If Scofield taught false doctrine why did millions of people inbrace the “Scofield Study Bible” incluiding lay people, pastors, Bible Scholars, college professors, Sunday School Teachers, missionarys and and a whole lot of people smarter than YOU?

forever Baptist
allischalmers
Read Matthew, Timothy, John, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, James and Hebrews to find the answer. (As well as several Pauline letters)

Rationally, why did it take until 1909 for Christ to present the truth through Scofield? Are you actually suggesting that Christ abandoned his church for almost 2 millenia after the promise he made?

Even more, Christ did it through a coorespondance course?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
“Millions of spirit filled people can’t be wrong” ???

There are 1.1 billion Catholics in the world! A fraction of a percent would equal millions of your “spirit filled people”.

In your defense of a “christian” writer, you expose one of the lesser weaknesses in your claim as the faith started by Christ. 1.1 billion versus millions. Who is right, the bigger number or the smaller number?

The majority of faith filled people in the world identify with the Bride of Christ. The Catholic Church.
 
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Palamite:
Some thoughts…

i) The Epistle to the Hebrews is addressed primarily to Hebrew-Christians who were sorely tempted by various pressures to abandon Christianity and back slide into Judaism.

ii) Hebrews 6 is specifically about Jewish Christians who abandon Christianity.

iii) For a moment I will remove some of the statements St.Paul makes between Hebrews 6:4-6:6 so as to make his point clearer. I’m not saying the other information isn’t important - however, it is only illustrative of his main point.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened …, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4a, 6b)

Calvinist readings of this passage seem to leave out the “seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” part. It is that part which provides the essential context to the passage. St.Paul is speaking not simply of those who fall away from the Church, but very specifically of Jewish Christians who apostacize and return to Judaism. The nature of their betrayal is much more profound as it is not simply unbelief but a very clear indictment of Christ and the same form of unbelief which those who put Christ to death suffered from.

Also, the word translated “impossible” here, in the Greek, is not as emphatic as the English word perhaps is. Adunatos literally means “without strength” or “without power” - the same word is used in Acts 14:8 to speak of a crippled man’s feet (“impotent”). So while it could be taken to be an “absolute impossibility”, I think the context (specifically St.Paul’s perceived need here to illustrate his point) shows that this wasn’t an attempt at taking a doctrinal stand about the utter impossibility of a defecting Jew returning to the Church, but simply a statement of how incredibly far a fall and how deep a betrayal such an apostasy would be.

And you see, that’s the thing - this passage is very clearly about life in the Church. It mentions illumination/Baptism, heavenly gift/Holy Communion, and participation in the Holy Spirit/Chrismation. How could someone after all of this (especially keeping in mind the rigorous preperation which was normal for receiving these sacraments of initiation in the early Church, which were typically all administered at once hence why St.Paul speaks of them as he does), who turns around and defects back to Judaism, be reasonably expected to return? It’s a very sad situation. But in context (especially the broader context of the New Testament on this topic) it doesn’t add up to what our Calvinist friends are choosing to believe. Indeed, their interpretation is untenable since it involves cases where only sophistry on their part could justify the situation. Ex. say one of their members defects, but then changes their mind and comes back to the congregation and the practice of their Reformed/Baptist/whatever religion. Well if they’re following St.Paul at all literally here, they’d have to refuse to take someone like that back. Yet they likely wouldn’t - instead, they’d say “oh, they didn’t really fall away”. Of course, that’s exegetically nightmarish - they go from being overly literal to being rather loose and creative with context all at once, seemingly wherever it suits their peculiar teachings.
All excellent points my Eastern Brother.
 
Sean Boyle said:
“Millions of spirit filled people can’t be wrong” ???

There are 1.1 billion Catholics in the world! A fraction of a percent would equal millions of your “spirit filled people”.

In your defense of a “christian” writer, you expose one of the lesser weaknesses in your claim as the faith started by Christ. 1.1 billion versus millions. Who is right, the bigger number or the smaller number?

The majority of faith filled people in the world identify with the Bride of Christ. The Catholic Church.

That huge number doesn’t even include the other Apostolic Christians found among our bretheren in the East, (i.e Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox) who would also disagree with scofield.
 
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allischalmers:
Possibly the most crucial-- most misunderstood–verses in all of God’s Word are Hebrews 6:4–6,
I readily confess that it is not always easy to discover the perfect consistency of one scripture with another: .
Fortunately all of these same questions were asked by the first Christians. And fortunately, those who learned at the very feet of the Apostles were there to explain it to them and to leave us with their expositions of the Gospels and other Sacred Scripture. We don’t have to re-interpret the Holy Scriptures generation after generation. We already have the Authentic interpretation and correct understanding of the Scriptures from those very same ones who were taught by the Apostles in the Patristic writings.

Dominus vobiscum.
 
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LatinCat:
That huge number doesn’t even include the other Apostolic Christians found among our bretheren in the East, (i.e Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox) who would also disagree with scofield.
:amen:

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
In fact, I don’t think the majority of Protestants would agree with Scofield. How common is dispensationalism anyway?
 
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allischalmers:
I"m sorry, millions of Spirit filled people can not all be wrong.
Well then, 1.1 Billion Spirit Filled Catholics, and growing at about 12 million per year, can’t be wrong.
 
Let’s all remember to be charitable to allischalmers. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will use those of us who answer her questions honestly and in a spirit of Charity to bring her to the True Faith handed down by the Apostles. How glorious it would be if we are allowed to be God’s unworthy workmen in bringing her to his Holy Catholic Church.
 
LatinCat,

I thought you might appreciate this, it’s one of the greatest recurring miracles of our eastern brothers (don’t know what you said that made me think of it) It recurrs every year on Holy Saturday at the Church of the Holy Sepluchre.

Holy Fire in Jerusalem

The full video is pretty neat, just follow the links to pictures and videos.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Actually allis chalmers is a tractor

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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allischalmers:
Eden
Don"t try to twist things around. I was showing that there were other people that the Holy Spirit had shown the true meaning of the Scriptures and agreed with what I had written. To say that Dr.Scofeild was the Holy spirit was stuped.
Also I do not believe every thing that every Christain writer has written or even every thing my Pastor say, only what I know the Holy Spirit treaches me.
God has given some men like me throught the Holy Spirit the ability to understand God’s Word better that other people.which is why we read the works of others.

Forever Baptist
allischalmers
We are waiting for your “inspired” Bible Commentary so we can debate the meaning of what you say.

👍
 
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LatinCat:
Have you ever heard of hyperbole? I think that is what is happening when st. Paul says “imposible” here. I think he is talking about the difficulty of coming back to Christ in such a situation. So difficult that he hyperbolyzes it into being “impossible” while not literally being impossible.
Hi LatinCat that is the same exact problem that Giver has, an inability to understand hyperbole.

interresting.
 
What formal theological training did scofield have? Where did he learn Greek? Hebrew? Basic history of the ancient world? Jewish Customs?
 
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