Hell..a place or a condition?

[olive456]

What does the Catholic Church teach about hell? is it a place or a state?

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think we can safely say it is a place.

It is where all those who are separate from God for eternity reside with the fallen angels. A spiritual place, which may be very different than a place as we know it in the known universe.

 

[po18guy]

We argued this recently in another thread. I fail to find a catechism reference that defines it as a physical place. Right now, from mankind’s viewpoint before the resurrection, no human bodies are there, and demons require no physical space. So, it might still properly be considered a state of being.

However, at the resurrection there will have to be a place for eternal punishment of human bodies. God does not wait, and knows all, since all is present to Him right now. So, at this point in time from our viewpoint, there may be no physical hell, but from God’s vantage point, it already holds all that it will ever have.

Something to consider, as Saint Peter wrote:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up."

If this is the case, perhaps the new heaven and new earth will be complemented by a new hell. And, as to those who do not think anyone will spend eternity in hell, Fr. John Hardon S.J. (RIP) commented “If there is no one in hell by now, what crime must you commit to go there?”

 

[Vico]

What does the Catholic Church teach about hell? is it a place or a state?

Catechism 1033 includes “This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.””

 

[olive456]

I think we can safely say it is a place.

It is where all those who are separate from God for eternity reside with the fallen angels. A spiritual place, which may be very different than a place as we know it in the known universe.

Has the Church taught this?

We argued this recently in another thread. I fail to find a catechism reference that defines it as a physical place. Right now, from mankind’s viewpoint before the resurrection, no human bodies are there, and demons require no physical space. So, it might still properly be considered a state of being.

However, at the resurrection there will have to be a place for eternal punishment of human bodies. God does not wait, and knows all, since all is present to Him right now. So, at this point in time from our viewpoint, there may be no physical hell, but from God’s vantage point, it already holds all that it will ever have.

Something to consider, as Saint Peter wrote:

If this is the case, perhaps the new heaven and new earth will be complemented by a new hell. And, as to those who do not think anyone will spend eternity in hell, Fr. John Hardon S.J. (RIP) commented “If there is no one in hell by now, what crime must you commit to go there?”

Does that mean there will be some form of literal fire?

Catechism 1033 includes “This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.””

You’re implying that the Catechism refers to hell as a state?

 

[McCartney]

Our Lady should the children of Fatima Hell. So it is a place.

 

[Vico]

Has the Church taught this?

Does that mean there will be some form of literal fire?

You’re implying that the Catechism refers to hell as a state?

It says: This state … is called “Hell”. It refers to a state of being; the hell of damnation, or gehenna 1034. Also there is Sheol or Hades. St. John Paul II wrote regatding “He descended into Hell” used in the Creed:It should also be mentioned that the word “hell” does not mean the hell of eternal damnation, but the abode of the dead which is sheol in Hebrew and hades in Greek (cf. Acts 2:31).
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19890111en.html
Catechism 633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - *Sheol *in Hebrew or *Hades *in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

 

[po18guy]

All that we really need to do is stay out of hell How we do that has been clearly revealed to us.

As to fire, that is the visual that has been seen in visions, that is the linguistic terminology used by our Lord and others.

If we can have a perpetual flame for John F. Kennedy, God can certainly have one for the damned.

 

[GEddie]

Hell lies in eternity, and not in the “now” of our collinear time.

As such, those in Hell are embodied. The embodiment is not the glorious pneumatikon soma of everlasting life, however. Instead of the agility of the Heavenly body, those in Hell would seem to have “bound hands and feet”. (Mt 22:13)

St. Faustina recorded there being darkness and suffocating smells there.

So yes, it must be a place.

ICXC NIKA

 

[glendab]

It is a place.

The following is info. on Fatima from the Land of Wikies and what our Lady was to show the three children. I enlarged the Mother of God’s words so you would know that she showed them a place, not a “state of mind” or philosophical speculation.

The first secret was a vision of Hell:

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_F%C3%A1tima

Glenda

 

[glendab]

This is from the CCC:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. (393)

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”618 (1734, 1428)

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”619

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm?p=20-paragraph21.xhtml%23para1035

Obviously it is a place.

If you think you might be headed there, please stop and make a good Confession and live rightly. Whatever it is you are doing, it isn’t worth paying for with the pains of Hell.

Glenda

 

[Joe_5859]

Honestly, I wouldn’t call it either. I would stick to the language used in the Catechism paragraph that Vico quoted: hell is the state of definitive self-exclusion from God.

If you look at the section on Hell in the Catechism (CCC 1033-1037), it does not refer to hell as either a place or a condition. My inclination is to stick as closely as possible to the verbiage given in the Catechism.

Not that I think it is necessarily incorrect to call it a place. But when you call hell a “place”, it naturally raises certain questions that I don’t really have an answer to. Questions like: If hell is a place, where is it? How much space does it take up? If God is everywhere, how could a place exist where He is absent? etc.

Calling it a “condition” seems a bit clumsy to me. It makes it sound like hell is an infectious disease.

I’m inclined to think that it is for reasons such as this that the Catechism avoids using such language.

 

[dshix]

Hell is both a state and a place. It is a state of eternal separation of God, with all the anguish that that portends, and also and place of damnation where our bodies suffer eternal torture.

 

[po18guy]

Honestly, I wouldn’t call it either. I would stick to the language used in the Catechism paragraph that Vico quoted: hell is the state of definitive self-exclusion from God.

If you look at the section on Hell in the Catechism (CCC 1033-1037), it does not refer to hell as either a place or a condition. My inclination is to stick as closely as possible to the verbiage given in the Catechism.

Not that I think it is necessarily incorrect to call it a place. But when you call hell a “place”, it naturally raises certain questions that I don’t really have an answer to. Questions like: If hell is a place, where is it? How much space does it take up? If God is everywhere, how could a place exist where He is absent? etc.

Calling it a “condition” seems a bit clumsy to me. It makes it sound like hell is an infectious disease.

I’m inclined to think that it is for reasons such as this that the Catechism avoids using such language.

With all of the argumentation that hell seems to engender, and with all of the focus on hell, we do not want to fixate upon it, or some of us may end up there! If a soul resides in heaven, it matters not one whit if it is a place, state, both of the foregoing or even something in an entirely new dimension.

My impression is that, when we harbor a fascination with hell, the more we become like rubberneckers at a traffic accident - wanting to catch a glimpse of the blood and gore, but able to drive safely by on our way to a better destination.

For some good reason, very little is spoken of in the catechism regarding hell.

 

[Joe_5859]

Hell is both a state and a place. It is a state of eternal separation of God, with all the anguish that that portends, and also and place of damnation where our bodies suffer eternal torture.

I don’t necessarily disagree with that. I just wonder why the Catechism stops short of explicitly calling it a “place”. It seems like a deliberate choice of words to me. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, though.

 

[dshix]

I don’t necessarily disagree with that. I just wonder why the Catechism stops short of explicitly calling it a “place”. It seems like a deliberate choice of words to me. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, though.

I think the Catechism does not mention that Hell is a place because it is not necessary to do so. However, using reason, we can know that it must be a place.

Our bodies are physical. We will have bodies in Hell. Physical bodies require a physical place in which to be, for they cannot be nowhere, as that would be a contradiction. Thus, if our bodies are physical, and they are in Hell, Hell must be a place.

However, we know it is not just a place, because the Catechism tells us that it is a state: a state of separation from God. Thus, it is both. Persons who are in Hell are in a place, because they have bodies, and in a state of separation from God in that place.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think the Catechism does not mention that Hell is a place because it is not necessary to do so. However, using reason, we can know that it must be a place.

Our bodies are physical. We will have bodies in Hell. Physical bodies require a physical place in which to be, for they cannot be nowhere, as that would be a contradiction. Thus, if our bodies are physical, and they are in Hell, Hell must be a place.

However, we know it is not just a place, because the Catechism tells us that it is a state: a state of separation from God. Thus, it is both. Persons who are in Hell are in a place, because they have bodies, and in a state of separation from God in that place.

That makes sense.

 

[glendab]

Hello Joe.

Honestly, I wouldn’t call it either. I would stick to the language used in the Catechism paragraph that Vico quoted: hell is the state of definitive self-exclusion from God.

If you look at the section on Hell in the Catechism (CCC 1033-1037), it does not refer to hell as either a place or a condition. My inclination is to stick as closely as possible to the verbiage given in the Catechism.

Not that I think it is necessarily incorrect to call it a place. But when you call hell a “place”, it naturally raises certain questions that I don’t really have an answer to. Questions like: If hell is a place, where is it? How much space does it take up? If God is everywhere, how could a place exist where He is absent? etc.

Calling it a “condition” seems a bit clumsy to me. It makes it sound like hell is an infectious disease.

I’m inclined to think that it is for reasons such as this that the Catechism avoids using such language.

Vico’s quote isn’t the only words in the Catechism on the subject. "…descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” CCC1035. When you use the word “where” it refers to a place. That’s simple grammar. There is no Divine Roadmap that contains the actual location of Hell, so in that sense you are on safer ground, but the Church knows that Hell is a place, what goes on there, who goes there and who also inhabits that place by their nature. We also know for how long both the devils and the sinners who go there will be there. There is little wiggle room in this basic teaching. It is a philosophical answer to add to what we know of Hell to also call it a state of mind, for surely the whole of the person goes there, not just their souls and their minds are also effected and involved. Their minds don’t somehow disappear from their souls when they are cast into Hell. But some have taken this to mean that Hell can be experienced in this life in a somehow ordinary sense as an altered state of mind. Just like Heaven being experienced in this life, experiencing Hell in this life is a very EXTRAORDINARY OCCURANCE, as in one in about 100 million persons. The children at Fatima were given a glimpse of Hell by the Mother of God and while these are purely private revelations, they are a timely re-iteration of a basic Church teaching. Hell is real. It is a place. It lasts forever. It is the price some pay for their sins and “opinions.” The only way out is Jesus Christ and those who will be saved from it’s fires are those who will have their sins washed in the Blood of the Lamb, only those Redeemed by Him. These are the facts of life, not just for Catholics, but for everyone.

Glenda

 

[Cone]

If Hell is a place, will the residents of Hell be able to mingle with other residents? In other words, will the miserable at least have company or is it a place of abject desolation, loneliness and despair, like what they call “solitary” or “the hole”? Is it really as bad as it’s cracked up to be, or is it a relative “unquenchable lake of fire” only in contrast to what they’re missing out on?

We have these questions.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I don’t necessarily disagree with that. I just wonder why the Catechism stops short of explicitly calling it a “place”. It seems like a deliberate choice of words to me. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, though.

I think they want people to understand it’s not part of our physical world which people often conotate with “place”.

I know it used to be thought to be in the center of the earth. I think the Catrchism wants to stay away from that stuff.