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steve-b
Guest
Hell yes it exists. It’s there because angels didn’t love Him back and so goes a majority of the human race too
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steve-b
Guest
There was a great line in the movie “Gladiator” where Russell Crow saysstpurl:
There is no concrete proof for metaphysical ideas, but I’ll give the argument that seems to trouble so many.
- Life is finite, so what we do in the course of our lives is finite. (I presume I don’t have to source this)
- The effect of our sin echoing upon creation eventually ends because it is annihilated and remade.
- Isaiah 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
- Revelation 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
- Yet the damned perpetually endure their damnation.
The problem, again, is the lack of congruence between a sin that can only be commissioned for a limited period of time where the world it affects will eventually be remade -BUT- The punishment for that sin is still eternal.
- Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
- Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
- Matthew 13:42 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Summarized, it seems your answer, in brief, is denial. And that’s fine. Every Christian made aware of the problem must answer it somehow.
"what we do in life echoes in eternity"
It can only do that because we are by virtue of our soul, immortal. We live forever, already, just not on this side of eternity. The question then is, where is that life going to be… heaven or hell.
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Vonsalza
Guest
You said that “The punishment for sin is infinite because the gravity of sin is infinite”.
Ergo, if we go to purgatory to finish up our penance for sins, there’s no amount of purgation that could be completed by a person that would satisfy the sin debt.
Your counter is that “Christ’s sacrifice is infinitely meritorious”, which is fine. But then it makes the penitent’s role in purgation arbitrary since Christ carries the heavy “infinite” load regardless.
Except there’s this minor problem of divine sovereignty. Sure, as free moral agents we theoretically have the ability to affirm or reject God. But God also created the universe knowing how it would play out. Some would argue that the things that occur thusly do so by divine design (a lot of them, interestingly, Catholics!). Trent skirts the issue by calling it “a hidden mystery” (and YOU KNOW it’s a real pickle of a philosophical problem when even western Christians near the height of their historical legalism are forced to invoke an eastern-esque phrase like “hidden mystery”).
But that’s yet another example of Christian duality that believers try to harmonize and skeptics further try to tease apart. All theology leads to all other theology, but I’ll try to segue back to hell (per the OP) in our next exchange.
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EXdrinker
Guest
Wow. I do not where this is from. Can you please point me to where this came from.
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Vonsalza
Guest
A God that can be changed by sin is a God that’s difficult to reconcile with the Christian one.
I think this attempt to invoke the malleability of God Himself in order to defend your point is a little pyrrhic if you ask me. The device creates more problems than it solves.
Well, they may be annihilated:
- Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
- Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
- 2 Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
- Matt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
As such, the OPs concern about an eternal hell being just for finite, mortal sin still seems to be a valid concern for someone approaching the issue from a paradigm outside faith.
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Vonsalza
Guest
It’s a good movie
.I think what the OP is ultimately doing is trying to determine the rationale of the question itself rather than answer it directly.
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TheOldColonel
Guest
I wrote it. Its my own work.
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stpurl
Guest
Von, you don’t like the answer, fine. Nobody is forcing anything on you.
But just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean you can then claim that you weren’t answered, or move the goalposts and insist that a Christian concept (hell) has to be explained without using anything "Christian’.
You’re attempting to limit God into linear time and the soul to ‘finite events’, and then take offense at the idea that when time as we know it ceases, infinity will not be ‘more of same’ and subject to the same rules, made by the same limited humans, in the same limited way.
But just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean you can then claim that you weren’t answered, or move the goalposts and insist that a Christian concept (hell) has to be explained without using anything "Christian’.
You’re attempting to limit God into linear time and the soul to ‘finite events’, and then take offense at the idea that when time as we know it ceases, infinity will not be ‘more of same’ and subject to the same rules, made by the same limited humans, in the same limited way.
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Vonsalza
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
The penitent’s role in purgatory is to be purified and made Holy. You’re right that they cannot make amends for their sin in the sense that they can repay God for the damages. However, while the gravity of sin is infinite, the damage it does to the soul is not. It is this damage that is being removed in Purgatory. The predilection towards sin is removed through the sacrifice of Christ.
Keep in mind that you have to distinguish between the gravity of sin, which is infinite by nature of offending an infinitely good God; and the damage the sin does to us, which is not infinite given our finite natures. We cannot make up for the infinite offense our sin causes to God, but we can be purified of the finite effect sin has on our souls.
Christ paid the eternal price for our sins, but that doesn’t mean that our sins don’t still harm us.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
There is nothing theoretical about our ability to accept or reject God; that is an absolute because it is necessary for Love. God desires that we love Him, and if we lack the capacity to chose for or against Him then our love cannot be considered true love. Love cannot be taken, it cannot be forced. Love can only be given freely.Except there’s this minor problem of divine sovereignty. Sure, as free moral agents we theoretically have the ability to affirm or reject God. But God also created the universe knowing how it would play out. Some would argue that the things that occur thusly do so by divine design (a lot of them, interestingly, Catholics!). Trent skirts the issue by calling it “a hidden mystery” (and YOU KNOW it’s a real pickle of a philosophical problem when even western Christians near the height of their historical legalism are forced to invoke an eastern-esque phrase like “hidden mystery”).
But that’s yet another example of Christian duality that believers try to harmonize and skeptics further try to tease apart. All theology leads to all other theology, but I’ll try to segue back to hell (per the OP) in our next exchange.
Also, you speak about the concept of a hidden mystery as if it’s something specific to eastern schools of thought. This is, frankly, nonsense. The Western Church has always acknowledged that there are aspects of God that we simply cannot comprehend. In fact, we cannot truly comprehend God at all. He is so far and above our understanding that even in Heaven we will not be able to fully comprehend Him. I don’t know why you’re acting like this is some kind of dodge. We cannot fully comprehend how our free will works within God’s sovereignty because we cannot see all of history. We do not know the outcomes of each choice. We do not see how all the pieces fit together. We can make rational arguments for it, and we can see how a few of the pieces fit together at a time, but we can’t see the whole picture.
Saying that God created the universe knowing how it would play out is really a mischaracterization. It apply a temporal aspect (created and knowing both being past tense) to God’s knowledge that is foreign to it. God didn’t create he universe seeing what it would look like at the end. All moments of creation, from the very first moment to the very last, are equally present to God. He doesn’t know that a person will reject Him by virtue of being able to see the future, He knows it by virtue of it being the choice that person makes in the present. We I sin, He saw it, is seeing is, and has seen it in equal measure.
However, as you noted, we are getting far out of hand. I’d love to continue this aspect of the discussion over PM, but we should probably drop it for the topic.
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Vonsalza
Guest
Me not liking “the answer” isn’t the issue. So far, you’ve not substantiated your position as being “the answer” in the least bit.
But don’t let that stand in the way of your triumphalism, here!
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Vonsalza
Guest
I wouldn’t dream of suggesting that it’s not real. I think it is.
I’m merely pointing out that our moral agency exists in an uncomfortable tandem with God’s sovereignty over his creation. As such, believers are free to harmonize the themes; skeptics are free to isolate them as conflicting. That’s all.
No it isn’t. One of the hallmarks of western Christianity is this penchant for legalistically and dogmatically defining everything - something our eastern brothers-in-Christ have been far more hesitant to do for at least the last 1000 years.
All I’m suggesting - and probably rightly so - is that eastern theologians seem to be willing to invoke “divine mystery” far, FAR sooner than western Christians. This is likely the residue of administration-minded Roman society. It is, largely, what it is.
No it isn’t. To argue against it requires the denial of God’s omniscience and/or omnipotence. Which is fine, but at this point we’re probably no longer discussing the Christian God. The objection fundamentally requires that God be, in some way, at least partially out of control. “No bueno”, as far as Christian theologians go…
Very well, Prod. Thanks for the chat!
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ProdglArchitect
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I just wanted to respond to this one point before dropping the topic. I’m not arguing against God’s omniscience; I’m arguing against the temporal dimension your language applied to it. The way you wrote it implied a cause and effect aspect to God’s knowledge which isn’t correct. God didn’t create it and then know, as what you wrote would indicate. His act of creation and knowledge were simultaneous, part of the ever-present now of God’s omniscience.
If this wasn’t your intent I apologize, but that’s how it reads.
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tafan2
Guest
I am jumping in late to the conversation, but I would recommend CS Lewis’s book: The Great Divorce. Now, if you take it as his literal speculation of how hell works and we end up there for eternity, you will think it doesn’t match Catholic teaching. But if you look at it as an allegory to our last chance at redemption, at the moment of death, I think it works really well. It demonstrates what hell is and how we decide to go there, having full knowledge of that fact.
A great read. You read it, and hell will start making sense. As matter of fact, I have never read/heard any explanation of hell that comes close to helping me understand it as well. You can hear all of the “we choose to separate ourselves from God, our will becomes fixed,” but it all still seems abstract, this book does not seem abstract
A great read. You read it, and hell will start making sense. As matter of fact, I have never read/heard any explanation of hell that comes close to helping me understand it as well. You can hear all of the “we choose to separate ourselves from God, our will becomes fixed,” but it all still seems abstract, this book does not seem abstract
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EXdrinker
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Nice work sir. As I read it my heart felt such deep anguish for those who are damned and it made me so not want to end up in that condition. Priests need to preach more on Hell. People need to hear and understand what it is we are saved from.
Thank you for sharing this Colonel.
Thank you for sharing this Colonel.
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TheOldColonel
Guest
You are quite welcome.
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Latin
Guest
God bless every readers of the CAF.
In the light of the following articles, hell doesn’t make any sense to me.
.
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NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
Quote: God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth.
(1) One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men,
(2) until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.
Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles, making both one in Himself.
The Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ts/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
.
.
Similarly the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence states.
This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
.
It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
.
It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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FOR UNDERSTANDING HELL ONE OF THE BEST ARTICLE OF THE CATHOLIC ANSWERS – Without the article even speaking about hell.
Quote from: Catholic Answers.
Mary: "Full of Grace"
We will all one day be rendered immaculate (sinless), but Mary, as the prototypical Christian, received this grace early.
God granted her freedom from sin to make her a fitting mother for his Son.
John the Theologian
"[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit.
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Continue
In the light of the following articles, hell doesn’t make any sense to me.
.
.
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
Quote: God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth.
(1) One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men,
(2) until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.
Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles, making both one in Himself.
The Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ts/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
.
.
Similarly the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence states.
This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
.
It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
.
All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi
..
That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
.
It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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FOR UNDERSTANDING HELL ONE OF THE BEST ARTICLE OF THE CATHOLIC ANSWERS – Without the article even speaking about hell.
Quote from: Catholic Answers.
Mary: "Full of Grace"
We will all one day be rendered immaculate (sinless), but Mary, as the prototypical Christian, received this grace early.
God granted her freedom from sin to make her a fitting mother for his Son.
John the Theologian
"[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit.
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Continue
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Latin
Guest
Continuation
.
After when I read the above quote from the article that “God granted her freedom from sin to make Mary a fitting mother for his Son.”
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I realized:
If God would granted all of us the same grace, freedom from sin for make us fitting for Heaven, would be no hell for the human race.
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So, the CRUCIAL question is:
Why, for what reason, God did not granted for all of us at our birth His grace freedom from sin?
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The CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence answers the above CRUCIAL question.
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All things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
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In spite of sin, which is due to the willful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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.
The CRUCIAL question:
Why, for what reason, God did not granted for all of us at our birth His grace freedom from sin?
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ANSWER:
Evil He converts into good and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children, evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design.
.
Can anyone even think, from the evil God converts into good, that good can be hell?
Hell would be a far grater evil, only our hard learned (through suffering) holy life and heaven can be a greater good.
.
God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
.
After when I read the above quote from the article that “God granted her freedom from sin to make Mary a fitting mother for his Son.”
.
I realized:
If God would granted all of us the same grace, freedom from sin for make us fitting for Heaven, would be no hell for the human race.
.
So, the CRUCIAL question is:
Why, for what reason, God did not granted for all of us at our birth His grace freedom from sin?
.
.
The CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence answers the above CRUCIAL question.
.
All things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
.
In spite of sin, which is due to the willful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
.
Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.
.
Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
.
Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
.
.
The CRUCIAL question:
Why, for what reason, God did not granted for all of us at our birth His grace freedom from sin?
.
ANSWER:
Evil He converts into good and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children, evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design.
.
Can anyone even think, from the evil God converts into good, that good can be hell?
Hell would be a far grater evil, only our hard learned (through suffering) holy life and heaven can be a greater good.
.
God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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2towers
Guest
God created us as eternal. That means the soul cannot be killed. How cruel it would be to say to people in Heaven "I know you chose heaven, but in a few hundred years here you have to fade into nothingness so the people in hell can end their suffering. I appreciate your adoration and prayers, but I just can’t let Hitler burn forever can I?
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