Hell and how it makes sense

[Seagull]

I know GOD is merciful -
so Hell - cant be super duper extremely utterly bad - and horrifying ?
Can it ?
Imagine someone dying peacefully in their sleep - at peace and smiling -
then going there POW like on a rocket !
That’d be bad

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Hell would be a far grater evil, only our hard learned (through suffering) holy life and heaven can be a greater good.

Hell is only evil if we’ve done nothing to deserve it. That is only true of exactly two people in all of Human history: Jesus and Mary.

You conclusion flies in the face of scripture. Jesus repeatedly makes it clear that those who reject God will suffer eternal torment. Only by ignoring a substantial portion of Jesus’ teachings can you conclude that Hell does not exist.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

Hell would be a far grater evil, only our hard learned (through suffering) holy life and heaven can be a greater good.

Hell is only evil if we’ve done nothing to deserve it. That is only true of exactly two people in all of Human history: Jesus and Mary.

God bless you ProdglArchitect and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
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If we think rationally; Can we believe that apart from a few people God throws the entire human race into hell?
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Let’s see, those few people from the human race whom God elected and predestined them to heaven by an absolute decree, without regard to any future supernatural merits, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment; Did they deserve heaven, or it was God’s UNDESERVED gift for them?
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Did they do anything to deserve their election and heaven?
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Can be the answer anything other than an absolute and emphatic NO?
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God elected them —not because of anything they have done but according to the good pleasure of His grace and will.
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Furthermore, NO ONE can do anything to deserve heaven, because it is God’s FREE GIFT.
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CONCLUSION
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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As we see above, we don’t even have free will to choose God and heaven, only God can choose heaven for us.

As it is described above, of course AFTER our Justification we all happily say YES to God’s call to Eternal Life.
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NOW LET’S SEE WHO ARE THOSE (NOT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE) END UP IN HELL

For the absolute predestination to heaven is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind, or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven,” in other words, not to save them.
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As you see ProdglArchitect, those who goes to hell they are not go to hell because they deserve it, but for only reason, they are excluded from heaven, “apart from a few people, the entire human race.”
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OF COURSE A JUST GOD DOE’S NOT AND CAN NOT PUNISH THE SAME SIN TWICE!!!

1 John 2:2; He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom.5:18; Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
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Hell would be evil, because in that case Christ died for NOTHING.
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God bless you ProdglArchitect and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[wkj_123]

God created us as eternal. That means the soul cannot be killed. How cruel it would be to say to people in Heaven "I know you chose heaven, but in a few hundred years here you have to fade into nothingness so the people in hell can end their suffering. I appreciate your adoration and prayers, but I just can’t let Hitler burn forever can I?

That’s the problem though it’s the eithier or mentality. First off God created all these souls so surely he could just annihilate the ones he wants. It seems believers put God in such a small box as to what he can and can’t do. If we move past all the fancy theological dressings of how people fling themselves into hell, lock the door behind them, and then comemce to screaming for eternity, on a human level it just doesn’t add up. Even the worst human being doesn’t deserve to burn for eternity. There is no redemption in the punishment. It’s very sadistic if someone truly thinks about it.

 

[jcrichton]

Not so fast.

Why did Jesus change the Old Covenant Warning against blasphemy against the Name of Yahweh God to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as the sin that is not forgiven on this life nor the next?

It is because of the reality in which we live!

If one rejects (through disbelief or any other sinful act) and persists on this rejection, how can repentance be honest if one only repents after being face to face with damnation?

It’s the old hollowood principle: ‘a person is not guilty unless he/she gets caught.’

By such measure not even the worst of sinner would end up in hell–all he/she would have to do is know the reality and seek to make amends…

Would that not defeat the purpose of Justice (Ezekiel 18)?

The Path is set:

19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30)

The ‘feel-good’ theology would have everyone believe, as hollowood, that a person can reject God and once, he/she has done all the wickedness he/she sought after, all that’s needed to do is to claim Salvation.

While it is true that none knows the heart/mind/spirit of another, the Holy Spirit searches the inner most being of man and it is He Who Reveals (Uncovers) the goodness or malice that exists in man.

…as Jesus stated, a bad tree does not produce good fruit–rejection of God does not turn into love of God once reality hits (death overtakes us).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

As our lives are finite, it must be. We cannot endlessly reject. If we live for only 85 years, then we can only give 85 years worth of rejection. This is measurable - thus - finite.

Sure, but then you still can’t get around the fact that our transgressions are finite and we are punished in a non-finte manner. Incongruently, some may add.

Are you suggesting that the damned cannot feel contrite for their sins?

You are confusing temporal with spiritual.

Our temporal acts have spiritual consequences.

A person who rejects God cannot, after death, change his/her mind because he/she is faced with the spiritual reality which he/she disowned in the temporal realm.

Hollowood portrays the spiritual world in terms that are pleasing to man; it purports that even the most wicked person can find him/herself in Heaven by just claiming ‘God is Love’ or some other shortcut.

Here’s our spiritual reality:

27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb. (Apocalypse [Revelation] 21)

None can get their names into the Book of Life of the Lamb, once they are dead!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Look, I get it if you don’t like the fact that there seems to be a lack of logical congruence between finite sin and non-finite punishment - as many have pointed out and will continue to point out.

As I said far earlier - believers must answer these disharmonies in some way. Yours seems to be a denial based on a technical interpretation on what “eternity” means.

I doubt many will find that convincing; but I’m glad it works for you.

I just have doubt as to whether your device here is authentic Catholic teaching or your own personal band-aid solution.

Actually, here’s what Scriptures say about sin:

23a For the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6)

God does not say, ‘the wages of sin are congruent to man’s lifespan experience.’

God states that death is the wages of sin, period!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The problem, again, is the lack of congruence between a sin that can only be commissioned for a limited period of time where the world it affects will eventually be remade -BUT- The punishment for that sin is still eternal.

Summarized, it seems your answer, in brief, is denial. And that’s fine. Every Christian made aware of the problem must answer it somehow.

Wow, great effort!

It only lacks reality.

Reality #1: sin is not a temporal value.
Reality #2: sin is not remade as an inoffensive recreated material (that’s Oriental spirituality where people reincarnate zillions upon zillions of times till they get it right).
Reality #3: what is recreated is the God’s Economy (as the change that took place between Creation and Moses (the Old Covenant) and Moses and Jesus (the New Covenant).
Reality #4: It is God’s Demands that have to be met not man’s whims:

‘Choose Life!’ ‘Be Holy!’ ‘Repent, and seek Yahweh God, your Lord and Savior!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Now you’re mixing in values.

Do you not understand that those who are in Purgatory have died seeking God (Repentance and Reuniting with God) and , not rejecting God (embracing wickedness and continued rejection of God)?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Then purgatory is arbitrary and capricious. By Christ’s mercy, the murderer and the child who stole the candy-bar could possibly have the same sentences.

You continue to miss out on understanding.

A person who does not repent from sin and seeks out God will suffer because of his/her rejection of God.

A person who repents from sin and seeks out God will not suffer the same consequences because he/she will seek to get closer to God.

Jesus was invited by a Pharisee for dinner; when He got there a woman greeted Him in tears (I think everyone knows this passage); the Pharisee judges the woman as a sinner and Jesus as a fool as he thinks to himself that if Jesus were to be a Rabbi/Prophet He would have known that that woman was a wicked wicked woman… here’s what he missed: though he invited Jesus to dinner, he omitted all of the courtesies that the Jewish culture granted guests: a) the host would greet him/her at the door (or perhaps even seek the guest out even before arriving at his/her home), would deposit a symbolic kiss/es as welcoming gesture, offer refreshing water, and wash the feet of the guest… the Pharisee refused to display any welcoming gestures, either out of fear of losing his position in the Temple and community or out of resistance to what Jesus stood for or both.

The sins of the woman were absolved because she honestly and humbly sought God; the Pharisee remained in his sin because he rejected God, even and in spite of his pretense (invitation to diner).

This is the reality in which we exist: some of us reject God and embrace ourselves and the world while some of us reject our sin and embrace God’s Mercy and Love.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

but I just can’t let Hitler burn forever can I?

Wow, is your Justice greater than God’s?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So, just do evil and end up in Heaven, right?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Wow, Jesus died so man can sin?

Here’s the problem your argument has: Jesus is the cure for sin not the escape for sinners!

While it is true that God so Loved the world that He Sent His Only Begotten Son so that all shall Live; it is also true that not all are obedient to God and not only are they not obedient but they reject God, the Light, and they seek not the Light so that their wickedness would not be demonstrated by the Light:

19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. (St. John 3)

(fyi: God does not throw anyone into hell; man chooses, as Satan, to reject God and cements his own demise.)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Even the worst human being doesn’t deserve to burn for eternity. There is no redemption in the punishment. It’s very sadistic if someone truly thinks about it.

Then you are wiser and more Just than God since God seems to have committed a horrible faux pas (Creation of hell) and punishes sin eternally when most sinners just didn’t mean anything by it–they were simply testing their limits and appetites… being all that they could be as they ate their cake and had it too!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[wkj_123]

Had third cake and eat it too definitely doesn’t apply to salvation. An eternal suffering hell is so unimaginable. It honestly makes me sad that humans can believe people are going through this and be ok. Imagine if a country on Earth was burning dissenters and keeping them alive to continue burning them. People would be horrified. I just can never believe a loving father god would create people he didn’t even need knowing some would endure this. It’s very sad.

 

[jcrichton]

You’ve been away from the planet for eons, then?

Have you not witnessed (by eye or ear) man’s selfishness and self-destruction?

When humanity did not understand about stds it was quite a shock to find people dying from preventable diseases such as them; so humanity’s knowledge and control advanced and “treatment” and “protection” was engineered; yet, humanity continues to engage in acts that brings them to destruction… then there are the substance abuses… recreational drugs, prescription drugs, substances that were never meant to be ingested or used intravenously or smoked… people popping pills or concoctions fully aware of the “looming” death, chaos, and destruction that they cause and leave behind… then there are the guns and ammo–posers beat their chests and sound off large and ominous: “no more,” “no more death,” “no more dancing around the issue,” “life matters;” yet, agencies and individuals continue to line their pockets with gun’s and ammo greens.

Humanity embraces death and destruction. Humanity rejects limits on their love affair with those agents that conduce them to death and destruction.

No country on earth that exists blinding itself to the fallacies of “vive la liberté?”

Hell is not hell because God wants to punish the wicked; the wicked are punished in hell because hell is were the wicked have aligned themselves to spend their eternity!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Latin]

Latin:

Hell would be a far grater evil, only our hard learned (through suffering) holy life and heaven can be a greater good.

You conclusion flies in the face of scripture. Jesus repeatedly makes it clear that those who reject God will suffer eternal torment. Only by ignoring a substantial portion of Jesus’ teachings can you conclude that Hell does not exist.

God bless you ProdglArchitect and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
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My conclusion flies in the face of Scripture only if we don’t understand the reason of threats and warnings in the Scripture.
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Everyone who is familiar with the Book of Jonah know that.

The best answer that hell is exist or does not exist for the human race we find it in the Book of Jonah.
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The Ninevites where probably the most wicked sinners in the whole world, their wickedness went up to God.
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Because we are not yet perfect, we need as much warnings of hell as much we can get, for the reason to pay attention.
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God’s promised destruction and hell for all Ninevites, for the reason that the Ninevites pay attention.
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Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.
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As you see above ProdglArchitect, God promised distraction and hell to all Ninevites.
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Despite of all threats and promises of distractions and hell, God performed His Universal Salvation and saved all Ninevites:

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and also many animals?
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God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and God provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.
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The same principle applies to the warnings and promises of hell in the New Testament.

God does not change, the way God threatened and promised hell to all Ninevites and at the end saved them all, in the same way, God practically apart from a few people promise to the entire human race condemnation and hell, but with the same principle God saves us all, if not, then Christ died on the cross for NOTHING.
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On the cross Christ wiped out the sins of the whole world, this is the reason of the Universal Salvation of the Ninevites.
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God promised hell and destruction to all Ninevites but because of (1 John 2:2; He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world), God saved all Ninevites.
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CAN WE REJECT GOD AND HIS CALL?
Everyone who is familiar with Catholic Soteriology know, there is no such thing in Catholic Soteriology that even one person IN ALL CHRISTIAN HISTORY reject God’s call to Eternal Life/Heaven and end up in hell.
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God bless you ProdglArchitect and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[TK421]

Why would a God who loves us create a hell of eternal torture and create people knowing that they’ll go to hell? Why is there not just purgatory (for purification, instead of hell) and heaven? What bible verses talk about hell?

An archaic name for hell that was sometimes used in the past is “eternal purgatory”. Denizens of hell aren’t meant to be removed from God but since their will is set against what is good, none of their suffering brings them any closer to an eventual union with God.

We see portents of what this is like even in this life. The older people get, the more fixated they become on a particular ideology or mode of thought. They are less susceptible to change, epiphanies, or paradigm shifts. The days, weeks, and months blend together. In the hereafter, infallible knowledge is transmitted at Judgment and there is no longer anything left to inspire change or conversion, and this stretches into eternity.

Hell is talked about abundantly in Scripture & Tradition.

 

[2towers]

I think we both know you took that out of context. I was making a point for the OP.

 

[mythbuster1]

The Book of Revelation says, “All who were not found written in the Book of Life were cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the false prophet were,” and in another place it mentions that those who were not written in the Book of Life worshiped the Beast and his image and accepted the Mark of the Beast. This is not a hypothetical, but a prophecy which admits no ambiguity: not everyone will be counted among the Blessed, and fiery Gehenna awaits those who die in their sins.