Hell cannot truly be the absence of God

[Melchior]

I think it would be more accurate to say that Hell, in part, is the absence of union or communion with God. There is not place where God is not present. Hell is rather being in God’s wrathful or judgmental presence. But not completely out of His presense. Being in His presence, yet beyond His mercy would truly be Hell.

Is this in harmony with Catholic teaching? Or it the Catholic view strictly that God is not there in any sense? But I don’t see how that is possible. Even in Psalms we are told that we God is in Sheol.

Thoughts?

Mel

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

Im not catholic but I do believe God is there now. But after the final judgement when people are throw into the lake of fire, I believe that is when God leaves them.

God can do anything. So even though he is everywhere, he doesnt have to be I mean He is God, He can do whatever He wants.

Is there any Scripture regading the lake of fire being without God? Does anyone know of a verse or verses?

 

[Philthy]

When you come right down to the bible is pretty lacking as far as a serious, cohesive description of:
A) How Luther and Satan rebelled against God
B) Why God created them in the first place
C) Whether Hell is an eternal location and what the experience of Hell is like

That being said, I do believe the OP description of hell is more palatable than simply describing it as the “absence of God”. Then again, it is quite possible that we have NO IDEA how horrible it would feel if God’s presence were to disappear in our lives. Ultimately it seems that Hell has not been revealed much in a general way other than to say it’s pretty nasty - avoid it at all costs.
You might enjoy reading some of the private revelations of hell from the saints - it is scary stuff that gives your prayer life a serious boost…

 

[LilyM]

I think it would be more accurate to say that Hell, in part, is the absence of union or communion with God. There is not place where God is not present. Hell is rather being in God’s wrathful or judgmental presence. But not completely out of His presense. Being in His presence, yet beyond His mercy would truly be Hell.

Is this in harmony with Catholic teaching? Or it the Catholic view strictly that God is not there in any sense? But I don’t see how that is possible. Even in Psalms we are told that we God is in Sheol.

Thoughts?

Mel

True, we are told that in Psalms.

Then again, in the book of Job God asks Satan about where he’s been and what he’s been doing - for all the world as if he didn’t know already. Although that could be a bit of poetic licence.

And I believe God can choose to withhold His presence from certain places or people, and probably would in the case of Hell. You’d have to wonder why he’d want to watch the suffering going on in Hell. I don’t particularly imagine he’d find it enjoyable or edifying or anything.

EDIT: OK, found what the Catechism has to say about Hell. Sounds open to either interpretation to me.

"IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. "

 

[Damascus]

Mel, its very positive - your thoughts on Hell. Reading your post made me realize that your positive thoughts are likely out of an Awe for God’s greatness, and a compassion for others ( guessing here) that results in your explaination worthy of deep consideration.

However, (I lean on the cynical side) Hell is justice. Now, I dont know about you, but I have thought about that many times wondering if my idea of justice and Gods could even be close to the same ideas. I came to the conclusion that if Heaven is beyond our wildest imaginations or conceptions, so far above and beyond them, then Hell must be a horror my mind could never fathom as well. It must be IOW, equally as unfathomable, possibly worse than any description in the Bible could lead us to imagine.

But as far as God being there goes, hmm. Maybe that is the part that makes it pure “Hell” if you think about it. maybe he pops in from time to time to really terrify/shame the ones there?!?
I wonder. Would hearing his voice in Hell make it a worse Hell? Maybe.
Maybe.

Good post. Now I will be obsessing about Hell today LOL. Once Satan can no longer have new members in Hell, he will be bored. Now he is having his fun. But an eternity is a long time. Once his fun is over rejocing over the ones to keep him company, what next for his amusement??? This makes me wonder about the conditions in Hell for those that will be there…

 

[Melchior]

Mel, its very positive - your thoughts on Hell. Reading your post made me realize that your positive thoughts are likely out of an Awe for God’s greatness, and a compassion for others ( guessing here) that results in your explaination worthy of deep consideration.

However, (I lean on the cynical side) Hell is justice. Now, I dont know about you, but I have thought about that many times wondering if my idea of justice and Gods could even be close to the same ideas. I came to the conclusion that if Heaven is beyond our wildest imaginations or conceptions, so far above and beyond them, then Hell must be a horror my mind could never fathom as well. It must be IOW, equally as unfathomable, possibly worse than any description in the Bible could lead us to imagine.

But as far as God being there goes, hmm. Maybe that is the part that makes it pure “Hell” if you think about it. maybe he pops in from time to time to really terrify/shame the ones there?!?
I wonder. Would hearing his voice in Hell make it a worse Hell? Maybe.
Maybe.

Good post. Now I will be obsessing about Hell today LOL. Once Satan can no longer have new members in Hell, he will be bored. Now he is having his fun. But an eternity is a long time. Once his fun is over rejocing over the ones to keep him company, what next for his amusement??? This makes me wonder about the conditions in Hell for those that will be there…

Oh I don’t disagree at all. What I meant was that Hell is God’s justice, that he inflicts His justice so to speak. It is His presense in judgement, not mercy. IN otherwords what people and the devil and his demons experience in Hell and the Lake of Fire is the full wrath of God. It seems far more terrifying than His total absense, though that too is horrifying. But I don’t see how it is possible as God is omnipresent.

Good thoughts.

I trust Him and for far better things for us in His Son.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

True, we are told that in Psalms.

Then again, in the book of Job God asks Satan about where he’s been and what he’s been doing - for all the world as if he didn’t know already. Although that could be a bit of poetic licence.

And I believe God can choose to withhold His presence from certain places or people, and probably would in the case of Hell. You’d have to wonder why he’d want to watch the suffering going on in Hell. I don’t particularly imagine he’d find it enjoyable or edifying or anything.

EDIT: OK, found what the Catechism has to say about Hell. Sounds open to either interpretation to me.

"IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. "

Thanks for the quote from the Catechism.

Mel

 

[jbuck919]

A number of medieval and scholastic theologians supposed hell to be the ultimate sign of God’s mercy, for it guaranteed a place of existence for eternity, albeit under less than ideal circumstances, as opposed to the worse alternative of personal annihilation upon death. Think about it.

 

[masterjedi747]

…is the Catholic view strictly that God is not there in any sense? But I don’t see how that is possible.

In a way, yes, but not strictly in every sense. The point is simply that God is as completely removed from them as He can possibly be while still holding them in existence. And I suppose Heaven would be something exactly the opposite, where you would eternally experience the fullness of God’s presence to the greatest degree possible without actually being God.

A number of medieval and scholastic theologians supposed hell to be the ultimate sign of God’s mercy, for it guaranteed a place of existence for eternity, albeit under less than ideal circumstances, as opposed to the worse alternative of personal annihilation upon death. Think about it.

I know what you’re saying, but…I’m really not sure that’s going to help much.
Because I think many people would actually prefer to cease to exist rather than live out an eternity of suffering. So, at least from their perspective, they think it would be more merciful for God to annihilate them rather than place them in Hell for all of eternity.

Here’s another way of thinking about it that I find more helpful: God created you because He loves you, and He wants you to return that love to Him. But even if you refuse to return His love, He will never stop loving you. And He can’t love you if you don’t exist. Therefore, if you choose to reject God and send yourself to Hell, God is still going to keep on loving just the same you no matter what. And I’m sure that’s incredibly frustrating for someone who doesn’t want to be loved, and would much rather simply cease to exist.

 

[Sixtus]

I think it would be more accurate to say that Hell, in part, is the absence of union or communion with God. There is not place where God is not present

I agree with this sentiment entirely. I am not sure if it accords with Catholic Teaching, but as you say God is everywhere. So how can one be somewhere yet where God is not?

It seems logical to me that hell is a state of ‘non-existence’ seeings that is the only place where God is not, that which does not exist.

 

[Alexius]

Melchior: I think it would be more accurate to say that Hell, in part, is the absence of union or communion with God. There is not place where God is not present

This soounds like an Eastern Orthodox/Catholic description of hell. I’d say your right…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[masterjedi747]

It seems logical to me that hell is a state of ‘non-existence’ seeings that is the only place where God is not, that which does not exist.

…so are you saying that Hell is a state of non-existence?
Because that’s not compatible with Catholic teaching. Hell exists, and the people in Hell exist.

…but as you say God is everywhere. So how can one be somewhere yet where God is not?

Again, we just have to be very clear about what we mean when we say that “Hell is the absence of God”. It does NOT mean that God is completely and utterly absent, in every sense of the word. It cannot mean that, because then, as you say, Hell would not exist. This is not what we mean.

Think about this: We know that God is present everywhere. So then why is it so important for us to make visits to the Blessed Sacrament? Because, unlike with the Eucharist, God is not physically present everywhere. There are different ways that God can be present to us. He can be physically present, as in the Eucharist. He can be spiritually present in us, though His grace. And He can be present through the mere fact of existence, because God’s essence is existence.

Likewise, there are different ways that God can be absent. He can be physically absent. He can be spiritually absent, such as when we cut ourselves off from Him through sin (this is also something similar to what Christ experinced on the cross…remember: “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?”). But, by definition, He CANNOT be absent in anything that exists, since anything that does exist is necessarily participating in His existence.

When we say that Hell is the absence of God, we simply mean that God is as completely absent as He can possibly be in anything that exists. He is not physically present, or spiritually present, or present in any other way possibly imaginable other than the fact that He is simply continuing to hold it in existence. That’s all. The people in Hell are as completely and utterly cut off from God as they can be, while still being. And Heaven would be something quite exactly the opposite.

 

[Nieves]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. "

I do not know if my question can be posted here, but here it is:

Does the soul that has separated itself eternaly from God, does it still longs for God? Is that what CCC 1035 says on the last paragraph?

 

[Melchior]

I agree with this sentiment entirely. I am not sure if it accords with Catholic Teaching, but as you say God is everywhere. So how can one be somewhere yet where God is not?

It seems logical to me that hell is a state of ‘non-existence’ seeings that is the only place where God is not, that which does not exist.

I do not believe that Hell is non-existence. As scripture says God has put immortality in our hearts. We will always exist, I do believe Hell is a literal, conscious, state. But I believe it is God’s wrath poured out on those who died in their sins (mortal).

 

[dbacks5439]

Psalms does talk about Sheol. However, Sheol is not hell, where Satan resides. Sheol is the Jewish form of Purgatory. God exists in Purgatory, but not in hell, eternal damnation. The Apostle’s Creed addresses this issue when it says that Jesus descended into hell. Note that the Apostle’s Creed was written in Greek, and the Greek word for hell is Hades. Hades in Greek does NOT refer to eternal damnation where souls have no chance of leaving. Jesus descended into Purgatory because his death on the cross paid for their suffering in Purgatory. They were taken out because they did not have the opportunity to hear Jesus’ message. We have heard Jesus’ message, and therefore we are accountable to it. Jesus’ death brought in the New Covenant, where we are no longer bound by the law, but by faith and our good works. We do go to Purgatory, but the suffering is necessary for our purification to enter Heaven.
No, God does not exist in Hell. Satan and all souls who rejected God remain there forever. God cannot enter our hearts unless we allow Him to, therefore, God cannot enter a place that doesn't welcome Him.

 

[Melchior]

Psalms does talk about Sheol. However, Sheol is not hell, where Satan resides. Sheol is the Jewish form of Purgatory. God exists in Purgatory, but not in hell, eternal damnation. The Apostle’s Creed addresses this issue when it says that Jesus descended into hell. Note that the Apostle’s Creed was written in Greek, and the Greek word for hell is Hades. Hades in Greek does NOT refer to eternal damnation where souls have no chance of leaving. Jesus descended into Purgatory because his death on the cross paid for their suffering in Purgatory. They were taken out because they did not have the opportunity to hear Jesus’ message. We have heard Jesus’ message, and therefore we are accountable to it. Jesus’ death brought in the New Covenant, where we are no longer bound by the law, but by faith and our good works. We do go to Purgatory, but the suffering is necessary for our purification to enter Heaven.

    No, God does not exist in Hell. Satan and all souls who rejected God remain there forever. God cannot enter our hearts unless we allow Him to, therefore, God cannot enter a place that doesn't welcome Him.

Hmmm. With all due respect I think you are putting limits on God that only belong to Vampires. Hell and our hearts are different places. Hell was created by God as a place where His judgement takes place. Hell is His wrath being poured out. God cannot not be somewhere, the human heart, meaning our soul, is not a “place”. Hell is a place or at least the lake of fire with be. God is omnipresent wihtout exception. So He must be there too. Only His actions there are different. He is there in judgement and wrath.

Mel

 

[dbacks5439]

I’ve just remembered a story Jesus told. It’s the one with Lazarus and the rich man, and how both died and Lazarus is up in Heaven with Abraham, and the rich man is surrounded in fire. This is a prime example of the existence of Purgatory. Notice that the rich man has compassion. He wants to warn his friends and relatives so that they don’t suffer the same fate as he. Compassion is a grace of God, and those in eternal damnation are separated from God’s grace. That is why if someone were to die in a state of mortal sin, a state of no grace, they would go to Hell if they aren’t repentent. Since the rich man had compassion, we know that he will eventually reach Heaven, but first must undergo purification. (See Corinthians 3:10-15 for further info) Mel, you may ask why didn’t Lazarus go through purgatory. Well, since suffering is redemptive, Lazarus was quite well off in that department, seeing the way he lived. That is why Jesus calls us to lift up our cross, and follow Him. By suffering, we better ourselves and we prepare ourselves for Heaven. Purgatory simply finishes the job.

 

[dbacks5439]

Hey Mel, got this from newadvent.com. This is the Catholic Teaching on God’s relationship to those in Hell.

The poena damni, or pain of loss, consists in the loss of the beatific vision and in so complete a separation of all the powers of the soul from God that it cannot find in Him even the least peace and rest. It is accompanied by the loss of all supernatural gifts, e.g. the loss of faith. The characters impressed by the sacraments alone remain to the greater confusion of the bearer. The pain of loss is not the mere absence of superior bliss, but it is also a most intense positive pain. The utter void of the soul made for the enjoyment of infinite truth and infinite goodness causes the reprobate immeasurable anguish. Their consciousness that God, on Whom they entirely depend, is their enemy forever is overwhelming. Their consciousness of having by their own deliberate folly forfeited the highest blessings for transitory and delusive pleasures humiliates and depresses them beyond measure. The desire for happiness inherent in their very nature, wholly unsatisfied and no longer able to find any compensation for the loss of God in delusive pleasure, renders them utterly miserable. Moreover, they are well aware that God is infinitely happy, and hence their hatred and their impotent desire to injure Him fills them with extreme bitterness. And the same is true with regard to their hatred of all the friends of God who enjoy the bliss of heaven. The pain of loss is the very core of eternal punishment. If the damned beheld God face to face, hell itself, notwithstanding its fire, would be a kind of heaven. Had they but some union with God even if not precisely the union of the beatific vision, hell would no longer be hell, but a kind of purgatory. And yet the pain of loss is but the natural consequence of that aversion from God which lies in the nature of every mortal sin.

 

[Melchior]

I’ve just remembered a story Jesus told. It’s the one with Lazarus and the rich man, and how both died and Lazarus is up in Heaven with Abraham, and the rich man is surrounded in fire. This is a prime example of the existence of Purgatory. Notice that the rich man has compassion. He wants to warn his friends and relatives so that they don’t suffer the same fate as he. Compassion is a grace of God, and those in eternal damnation are separated from God’s grace. That is why if someone were to die in a state of mortal sin, a state of no grace, they would go to Hell if they aren’t repentent. Since the rich man had compassion, we know that he will eventually reach Heaven, but first must undergo purification. (See Corinthians 3:10-15 for further info) Mel, you may ask why didn’t Lazarus go through purgatory. Well, since suffering is redemptive, Lazarus was quite well off in that department, seeing the way he lived. That is why Jesus calls us to lift up our cross, and follow Him. By suffering, we better ourselves and we prepare ourselves for Heaven. Purgatory simply finishes the job.

The rich man was lost. He wanted to warn his relatives so they would not share his fate. Lazarus was in Abrahams Bosom where all the Old Testament saints went until Christ died for their sins and Heaven was opened to them. I am not arguing against purgatory. But this story is not about that.

But I think I am missing your point?

 

[Melchior]

Hey Mel, got this from newadvent.com. This is the Catholic Teaching on God’s relationship to those in Hell.

The poena damni, or pain of loss, consists in the loss of the beatific vision and in so complete a separation of all the powers of the soul from God that it cannot find in Him even the least peace and rest. It is accompanied by the loss of all supernatural gifts, e.g. the loss of faith. The characters impressed by the sacraments alone remain to the greater confusion of the bearer. The pain of loss is not the mere absence of superior bliss, but it is also a most intense positive pain. The utter void of the soul made for the enjoyment of infinite truth and infinite goodness causes the reprobate immeasurable anguish. Their consciousness that God, on Whom they entirely depend, is their enemy forever is overwhelming. Their consciousness of having by their own deliberate folly forfeited the highest blessings for transitory and delusive pleasures humiliates and depresses them beyond measure. The desire for happiness inherent in their very nature, wholly unsatisfied and no longer able to find any compensation for the loss of God in delusive pleasure, renders them utterly miserable. Moreover, they are well aware that God is infinitely happy, and hence their hatred and their impotent desire to injure Him fills them with extreme bitterness. And the same is true with regard to their hatred of all the friends of God who enjoy the bliss of heaven. The pain of loss is the very core of eternal punishment. If the damned beheld God face to face, hell itself, notwithstanding its fire, would be a kind of heaven. Had they but some union with God even if not precisely the union of the beatific vision, hell would no longer be hell, but a kind of purgatory. And yet the pain of loss is but the natural consequence of that aversion from God which lies in the nature of every mortal sin.

Thanks for the quote. I think this is in harmony with my thoughts.