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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Yes, that is the Franciscan view of Duns Scotus, I think, that Jesus shows us the full potential of what it can mean to be fully human, not just save us from eternal hell.
- Status
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Meltzerboy!
…yes, Christ’s definition is actually “the Kingdom of God.”
He reminded man that God Called man to be Holy as He is HOLY.
He also redirected the understanding of His times: ‘it was said love your neighbors… I say love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you… for what good is there if you only love those that love you’ (paraphrased)
He Taught that there are Two main Commandments: ‘Love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself; in these two are found (as in completed) the Law and the Prophets.’ (paraphrased)
When the Son of man returns He will Gather the people from the earth and will separate the sheep (those who have done the will of God), and place them to His Right, from the goats (those who only claim to be doing the will of God), and place them to His left; and He will say to the ones on the left: be gone from me, workers of iniquity, for I was hungry, thirsty, naked… you did not visit Me when sick, in prison…
He also Taught: when you come to the Temple before you place your offering on the Altar if you remember that your neighbor has something against, leave the offering there, go make peace with your neighbor, then return and make your offering to God.
(Please do not be offended by the final example.)
‘If your Justice is not greater than the Masters of the Law and the Pharisee, you cannot be My disciples.’ (all of the example are paraphrased and condensed to expedite response)
…so you are correct Jesus is not a mere usher, signaling where to go:
. (St. John 14:6)
Maran atha!
Angel
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steve_b
Guest
I have questions then about Judaism’s view of
*]the afterlife
From: jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm
As you say, Re: the after life, nothing is a must to believe there. Just personal opinion. That in itself, I have to say, I would find troubling if I was following that line of thinking.
*] But that site says you also believe in the resurrection of the dead. What does THAT mean if there is no after life?
*]Jews say the Messiah will come. Why is that a big deal, if you don’t benefit personally, when/if he comes and you’ve died. Since the Jewish Messiah is only a benefit for the living here on this planet not the dead
I know you can clear up the confusion
m:
*think about your question. If Jesus can gain for us heaven and avoid hell, He has to be the greatest of the greatest…right?
given that, as sinful people, we are hopefully guided by an informed and active faith, in Jesus and all He taught and did, so that at the end of our lives, our goal is attaining heaven with Him, for all eternity, and avoiding hell
m said:
True
m:
true
meltzerboy
New member
Thank you for the interesting information.
meltzerboy
New member
Thank you for confirming what I thought to be the Christian (Catholic) understanding.
meltzerboy
New member
I have questions then about Judaism’s view of
*]the afterlife
From: jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm
As you say, Re: the after life, nothing is a must to believe there. Just personal opinion. That in itself, I have to say, I would find troubling if I was following that line of thinking.
*] But that site says you also believe in the resurrection of the dead. What does THAT mean if there is no after life?
*]Jews say the Messiah will come. Why is that a big deal, if you don’t benefit personally, when/if he comes and you’ve died. Since the Jewish Messiah is only a benefit for the living here on this planet not the dead
I know you can clear up the confusion
*think about your question. If Jesus can gain for us heaven and avoid hell, He has to be the greatest of the greatest…right?
given that, as sinful people, we are hopefully guided by an informed and active faith, in Jesus and all He taught and did, so that at the end of our lives, our goal is attaining heaven with Him, for all eternity, and avoiding hell
True
true
Jews believe many things about the afterlife. This is no doubt because the Torah does not specify what it is exactly. Even such an apparently foreign concept as reincarnation is acceptable according to Judaism, but it is not the reincarnation of Hinduism. Rather, it is possible to be reincarnated if one has not accomplished an earthly task of great importance, generally related to Torah study and righteous behavior. Among the Thirteen Articles of Faith found in Judaism and formulated by Maimonides, are the beliefs in a bodily resurrection of the dead during the end times and the coming of the Messiah. When the Messiah comes, the Law, far from being put aside or condensed, is to attain a more significant importance here on earth, together with the rebuilding of the Third Temple. That is one of the tasks of the Messiah, among others, including world peace among the nations and the return of the Jews to the land of Israel, the ingathering of the tribes. Conversion to Judaism, either forcibly or not, is not a requirement.
But not all Jews believe in a Messianic era or even a Messiah. They may still be “in good standing” with respect to Judaism, though. Maimonides’ views carry weight but he is not infallible. This article of faith is, in my view, not essential to being a “good Jew” since the coming of the Messiah is not the focus of Jewish life. The focus consists of belief in and prayer toward one G-d, who is good and perfect in every way, doing good deeds by helping one’s fellow man (and woman) and, in so doing, making the world a better place for all, and living an ethical life guided by the Law in all situations: at home, at work, at play, in school, in the company of all, from birth to death and beyond regarding the commandments involved in the grieving process and respect for the dead.
The existence of an afterlife is a Pharisaic tradition and currently held quite firmly by Orthodox Judaism. But here too, absolute belief in heaven, let alone hell, is not a requirement of the religion. Virtue on earth, by means of the above-mentioned behavior, is considered its own reward. Judaism is the only religion, at least modern religion, I know of that does not promise eternal reward or threaten eternal punishment. In its purest essence–which not all Jews follow, let alone believe–the commandments toward G-d and mankind (as well as animals) are all G-d-centered rather than human-centered. Paradoxically, however, Judaism is not a religion of self-denial. Music, wine, food, laughter, celebration are all trappings of happy occasions in Jewish life, accompanied by inner peace of mind, body, and soul. Even the most solemn of Holy Days, such as Yom Kippur, is not really an occasion for grief. The religion is full of paradoxes, which are perhaps also representative of human life.
A
animalis
Guest
I think the issue is how can perfect love require obedience. Predestination requires the perception of the soul to help God, solely by obeying His commands. S. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “Then holy men are said to help God by carrying out his commands.” (com on 2 Cor, C. 6, L. 1, n. 204) He says helping because Saint Paul said, “And we helping do exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1)
Jesus went through a most awful death, and perhaps the most mundane life to help those who want it. Given the fact that the first sin of the world was such an awful disaster.
In part, the disaster confused people of their perception of the final good. We think we could leave the confusion by doing it our own way. But frankly, we have to get over the confusion of evil and simply obey.
Jesus went through a most awful death, and perhaps the most mundane life to help those who want it. Given the fact that the first sin of the world was such an awful disaster.
In part, the disaster confused people of their perception of the final good. We think we could leave the confusion by doing it our own way. But frankly, we have to get over the confusion of evil and simply obey.
G
GEddie
Guest
But this leads in time to a belief in afterlife, because virtue is not always rewarded, nor wrongdoing punished, in human life. Often wrong is rewarded and virtue punished.
The seven youths in Maccabean times upheld the Law, but only got their limbs hacked off for their trouble. Justice for them would not exist without the bodily resurrection.
Shalom and ICXC NIKA
S
steve_b
Guest
I wasn’t aware reincarnation is in the Torah
m:
Was that always the understanding in Judaism that the Messiah would come only at the end?
m:
I thought the Jews didn’t believe in an after life. This sounds pretty particular. Is this just an opinion talked about in that link that is allowed?
m:
Ahh,
Does that correspond to the thinking of the Sadducees of old?
m:
Here’s my question.
That link I provided says there is no after life. Meaning I guess, everything is here. Is that an official position of Judaism as you understand it?
And if there is no after life in Judaism, why even speak of a Messiah, or think of the “beyond”?
If there are strands within Judaism, of dramatically different beliefs, where are you in that stream?
m:
Okay.
Out of all Judaism, how many would you guess are “orthodox”?
m:
That’s the Sadducee influence, correct?
m:
That is certainly a good, and no one should disagree with that.
m:
Thanks for your thoughts. Would you say that your personal beliefs follow more the Sadducees of old, or the Pharisees of old or both?
As I was thinking abut what you were saying, and no belief in an after life, I wasn’t feeling the inner peace of mind for the Jews you describe. I actually couldn’t shake the idea that the Jews you describe, are in effect, still wandering in the desert of old looking for a way out.
As you already know, we follow the Jewish Testament of old, and we follow the New Testament. The OT pointed towards what was coming in the new, just as the new explains the old.
The old pointing to the messiah to come, and the NEW explaining the messiah and savior that already came. I would just add, we don’t need a savior if there is nothing to be saved from…right? And it is THAT point that Jesus answered,
and the point of this particular thread. Hell
Is there no hint of hell in the Testament you follow?
meltzerboy
New member
When I say “virtue is its own reward,” I mean that it is unnecessary to be rewarded physically or spiritually for obedience to G-d’s Law. The virtuous obedience itself is G-d’s reward. Of course that obedience should never be simply a mechanical, ritualistic obligation or chore during one’s earthly life. It should always be performed externally as a means of an internal conversion of heart. When this happens–and it may take a long time or even a whole lifetime–it leads to a life of true meaning, substance, purpose, righteousness, holiness. This itself is the reward that G-d has bestowed upon us. Jews thank G-d for His commandments since these sanctify us. This is not to say that one should ever think of oneself as morally superior for practicing the Law; indeed, believing so, would be a violation of the Law.
meltzerboy
New member
My personal beliefs are, well, very personal. I would not say I neatly fit into any one school of thought, whether derived from Pharisaic or Sadducee tradition. And that too is fine within the big tent called Judaism. I call myself a Reform Jew, but I believe in certain Conservative ideas and even Orthodox ones. I am Ashkenazi by culture rather than Sephardic, and also find Karaite Judaism as well as Nazarene Judaism both interesting although I do not practice either. I suppose Jews are similar to Quakers, and perhaps Jesuits, in the sense that if you ask ten Jews, even those of the same denomination, what the true meaning of their religion is, you will likely get ten (or more!) different responses.
Do I personally believe in the World to Come? Short answer: yes. Do I believe in hell for all eternity in the form of physical and/or spiritual torment? Short answer: no.
With regard to reincarnation, no, it is not in the Torah. But we also have an Oral Law (Talmud) and oral tradition, as does Catholicism.
M
Muzhik
Guest
I just ran across this question, so apologies for my late reply. Simply put, G_D does not condemn people to hell; they condemn themselves.
In some of the answers you’ll find references to “light”. Now, if you’ve ever had to deal with cockroaches, you’ll know they hate light: you come into the kitchen, turn on the light, and they’ll all scamper into the darkness. They hate the light and love the darkness.
Now, those who follow G_D are those who love the light (which is truth), and will choose to be and live in the light. There are those persons who obviously do not love light, and then there are those who do not love light, but act in a way so that the general public will judge them to be “good people”. The thing is, the longer you live in a way that rejects truth, the more you come to love darkness, even as the people around you still think of you as a “good person.” (I’m thinking in particular of someone at a college campus last week, who went ballistic at a pro-life display and started punching, kicking, and trying to destroy the displays.) G_D alone knows what is in someone’s heart and so only G_D alone can judge someone.
Scripture describes the Transfiguration: when Jesus revealed to three disciples His glorified body, like what we will receive upon being granted to heaven. It is a light so bright it begs description, but does not hurt the eyes. We have had testimony from a number of saints and mystics who were granted visions of the particular judgements of people after their deaths. There were those who had so lived in hatred of light (though still thinking they were “good people”) that when presented with the Light of Truth in His full glory, had no other reaction than to run away like the cockroaches, and jump into the abyss so as to escape the Light. IOW, they chose their own damnation by choosing to hate Light during their lives.
There was even the testimony of a priest from India who was badly injured in a motorcycle accident, and appeared before Jesus to be judged. Although his parishioners had thought he was a “good priest”, he stood there being judged by Jesus and unable to refute the accusations of not teaching Truth, of laziness in performing his prayers and the Sacrifice of the Mass, and other sins. He admitted and acknowledged his sins and could do nothing but prepare himself to accept the judgement of Jesus, which was clearly to confirm the priest’s rejection of light, and to accept that he himself had condemned himself to Hell. Then he heard a Lady’s voice, pleading with her Son for mercy and that She could make this priest into an example for all. The priest was returned to his body and after recovery has become firm and resolute in his preaching, prayers, and ministry.
Those who may not have loved Truth but not rejected it, and have been reconciled with G_D before death also were condemned for their sins and experienced great sorrow at being reminded of them; but because of their repentance they were granted Purgatory that they might wean themselves from their love of sins and eventually be admitted to Heaven.
So, to repeat, G_D does not condemn sinners to eternal torment in hell; rather, they condemn themselves because they lived in such a way that, like cockroaches, they cannot tolerate living in eternal light.
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steve_b
Guest
You don’t mention the prophets. Is there no hint of hell ( or eternal damnation) in the Testament you follow?
I gather, today, based on what you’ve said, no one speaks for the Jews.
C
catholic1seeks
Guest
Several points:
(1) Jesus taught hell. That may not make the difficulty go away, but note that hell is not merely some elaborated church doctrine. Jesus, love itself, was quite explicit about the existence of hell. Do you trust Jesus? Again, I understand it’s not as simple as THAT, since we all have intellectual difficulties. But reflect on who Jesus is and his superb example of love, even to the point of death. He seemed to have no problem with reconciling hell and God’s love.
(2) Remember what the Church actually means by hell, and don’t be over-influenced by artistic and literary depictions, alleged private revelations, personal theological opinions, or even the testimony of this or that church father. Sure, all of these may contribute valuable doctrinal insights, but they don’t always touch the core of revealed faith. The Church’s teaching authority is to lay out the central truths. Is hell physical fire? Are most people going to hell? Do most people who go to hell get there via sexual sins? Is hell literally inside the earth? All of these specific questions are in fact answered by the likes of artistic depictions, private revelations, personal opinions, and so on. But none of that is Catholic doctrine. Rather…
(3) Hell IS the definite state of separation from God. That’s the church’s teaching. Check out the catechism. God does not throw us in hell; He merely confirms what we so choose. Hell is not arbitrary punishment – so no, I will not accept opinions that suggest external punishments like fire. That’s my choice, and the church allows me to believe this. As C.S. Lewis said, the “gates of hell are locked from the inside” (paraphrase).
(4) Let’s not exaggerate how one goes to hell. One does not slip into hell. Humanity is not damned. We’re Catholic, not Calvinist. Sometimes even Catholics give the wrong impression by how they talk about mortal sin. They make it sound like you commit one “grave sin” and BAM! – you’re doomed to hell. But that’s not how it works. Yes mortal sin is real, but one does not accidentally fall into mortal sin. Mortal sin gets us to hell my forming an overall pattern in our lives by which we tend more and more to say no to God.
(5) On this same note, it could be that most people do not go to hell. I believe Benedict XVI said something in his opinion that probably most people die clinging to some sins and in need of God’s purification in purgatory before heaven. So let’s once again not exaggerate how easily people go to hell. God is merciful and knows our weakness.
(6) We don’t really know how the afterlife works. There will be some sense of time, because we are creatures and will have bodies in the resurrection. But it won’t be the same here. It’s simply hard to understand what it means to be “in” hell and have an immortal body. There’s suffering, yet it does not, apparently, kill the body.
(7) ultimately, only people who want hell – who don’t want to love God and neighbor – will indeed get what they want. Do most people leave earthly life in this state? Sin hurts our relationship with God and neighbor, but sin certainly does not always sever our fundamental desire to love God.
meltzerboy
New member
I cannot say offhand that there is absolutely NO hint of damnation among the prophets. I would have to re-read certain chapters and verses. But I do know that the prophets focused on temporal punishment rather than eternal punishment, and on collective salvation rather than individual salvation. Further, despite all the wrath they expressed, at times, toward the wayward Jewish people, their parting message (for example, in the Book of Isaiah) is generally one of reconciliation with G-d by means of prayer and good deeds, rather than fire and brimstone. Also, it is important to realize that, for all their wisdom, the Prophets portion of the Hebrew Scriptures carries less weight than the Torah (Pentateuch), which encapsulates the Law as directly given to Moses by G-d Himself. Thus Moses stands above all the other prophets. And even the Law must be interpreted since it often contains complex, elliptical verses. Here is where the Oral Law (Talmud) comes in.
There is no one voice that speaks for all Jews. Certain rabbis’ viewpoints on thorny issues carry more weight and may be followed by some, but there is no concept of human infallibility in Judaism, and there never was, including during the time of Moses.
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jcrichton
Guest
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Eddie!
…because only God’s Justice is Perfect… man’s justice is fluid–often sold/exchanged at a price for those who are able to afford it.
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Catholic!
…I understand what you are trying to say… but we (Catholics) have a tendency of wanting things to be “right” (as in righteous)… yeah, it’s a good “feeling” to think that most people will not go to hell… but is that what Jesus Taught?:
(St. Matthew 7:13-14)
Jesus is in deed signaling that man chooses to reject God (St. John 3:14-21)–the Path that Leads to Life is tedious and laborious to man, who is seeking shortcuts, gratification, and “freedom.”
…and while we can shout till we loose our voice that ‘all of mankind is God’s child,’ not all men and women will embrace the commitments and requirements of such status; rather, as hollowood pontificates, they will shout: ‘I’m no saint!’
Maran atha!
Angel
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steve_b
Guest
OT references: (emphasis mine)
**Ez 28:8 **They shall thrust you down into the Pit,
and you shall die the death of the slain
in the heart of the seas.
**Ez 31:14 **14 All this is in order that no trees by the waters may grow to lofty height or set their tops among the clouds,[a] and that no trees that drink water may reach up to them in height; for they are all given over to death, to the nether world among mortal men, with those who go down to the Pit.
Jb 7:9 9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;
**Jb 10:21 **21 before I go whence I shall not return, to the land of gloom and deep darkness,
Jb 38:17 17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
Is 38:18 18 For Sheol cannot thank thee, death cannot praise thee; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for thy faithfulness.
**while **in the Old Testament Hell isn’t fully disclosed by Revelation, it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness , a pit from which one cannot reascend .
THAT requires a savior, a messiah, to save one from that consequence…agreed?
Just thinking out loud,
If one has no consciousness, no congnitive activity, they are dead, then if they stay that way, there is no harm no foul if they stay that way. It’s like they were never here.
The problem is, the writers are worried about that state. It bothers them greatly. WHY?
m:
Moses gave the law, but were the prophets writings not guided by God also?
m:
If Moses could make mistakes in what he taught, for EVERYONE to believe, why would Jews put more importance on Moses and what he wrote, vs any body else’s writings?
meltzerboy
New member
Moses could NOT have made mistakes in what he wrote because he did not technically write anything of his own; rather, he transmitted the Word of G-d, which is the Law (Torah). He was a vessel, so to speak, when he wrote the Law. And even here, the Law itself must be interpreted by fallible humans as best they can and with the aid of the Oral Law and, for some, the Kabbalah. As a man, whatever Moses may have taught ON HIS OWN cannot be counted as infallible, even if guided by the Holy Spirit and even if authoritative due to his standing as the greatest of the prophets, and the latter for several reasons. As a result, the other prophets, while in no way negligible but, on the contrary, very wise and even inspired by G-d, are less credible when compared to Moses. Their writings are not part of the Torah Law of Moses although they are part of the Hebrew Bible.
Code:
With regard to Sheol, it is the resting place of all humans. The notion of Gehenna evolved from Sheol, and the former is more representative of what Christianity and Islam refer to as Hell. The Messiah, according to the definition of the term in Judaism, cannot save us from hell; it is simply not his role. Perhaps that is why Christians call Jesus their L-rd and Savior since the Messiah HAD to become G-d Himself, according to Christian belief, to offer salvation from eternal damnation.- Status