Hell confuses me

[Muzhik]

meltzerboy;

Before I forget …

A blessed and joyful Pesach to you and yours!

And go easy on the gefilte fish, OK? Save some room for the matzo balls. Ask yourself this: is noshing sacred anymore?


Blessed be the eye of the Lord
Who made heaven and earth.
Chag Pesach sameach!

 

[meltzerboy]

meltzerboy;

Before I forget …

A blessed and joyful Pesach to you and yours!

And go easy on the gefilte fish, OK? Save some room for the matzo balls. Ask yourself this: is noshing sacred anymore?


Blessed be the eye of the Lord
Who made heaven and earth.
Chag Pesach sameach!

LOL Thank you, Muzhik! You would make a good ethnic joke writer or comic.

 

[steve_b]

Moses could NOT have made mistakes in what he wrote because he did not technically write anything of his own; rather, he transmitted the Word of G-d, which is the Law (Torah). He was a vessel, so to speak, when he wrote the Law.

So it was God’s hand, writing through Moses?

What about the prophets when they wrote?
m:

And even here, the Law itself must be interpreted by fallible humans as best they can and with the aid of the Oral Law and, for some, the Kabbalah.

NOTHING is infallible?

To be clearer, so we don’t talk past each other, here’s what I mean definitionally, by infallibility
#166

IOW, A pope can make all kinds of mistakes personally, on all kinds of subjects, however, when he teaches/defines a doctrine on faith and morals ONLY, and it is to be followed by the entire Church, THEN that teaching/doctrine, is irreformable i.e. infallible.
m:

As a man, whatever Moses may have taught ON HIS OWN cannot be counted as infallible, even if guided by the Holy Spirit and even if authoritative due to his standing as the greatest of the prophets, and the latter for several reasons. As a result, the other prophets, while in no way negligible but, on the contrary, very wise and even inspired by G-d, are less credible when compared to Moses. Their writings are not part of the Torah Law of Moses although they are part of the Hebrew Bible.

Yet Moses was excluded from the promised land. I’m just asking, how is Moses the greatest?
m:

                                                                                                                                         With regard to Sheol, it is the resting place of all humans. The notion of Gehenna evolved from Sheol, and the former is more representative of what Christianity and Islam refer to as Hell.

I didn’t give all the references before, so I’ll add 2 more

Ecc 12:14 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with[a] every secret thing, whether good or evil.

**Dan 12:2 **2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It’s that word “everlasting” I’m focusing on.
m:

The Messiah, according to the definition of the term in Judaism, cannot save us from hell; it is simply not his role. Perhaps that is why Christians call Jesus their L-rd and Savior since the Messiah HAD to become G-d Himself, according to Christian belief, to offer salvation from eternal damnation.

“Christ” = newadvent.org/cathen/08374x.htm

The word Christ, Christos, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messias, means “anointed.”… for space I won’t copy the full definition and explanation given one can read that link.
m:

Despite modern Judaism’s major belief (not limited to Orthodox Judaism) in the resurrection of the body and the eternal peace of the immortal soul, this is NOT (I repeat) the main focus of the religion. Rather, living an earthly life of goodness, meaning, and love of G-d and our fellow man by means of our compassionate behavior is the main focus.

With all respect, doing a cost benefit analysis, What if one has a great life here, comparatively speaking, but ends up as **Dan 12:2 says **they awake, to shame and everlasting contempt.

The “Law” after all, doesn’t save even if one does their best to follow it. No matter how many bulls and goats are sacrificed, that doesn’t forgive sins.
m:

Sadder but wiser, perhaps, and certainly not opening itself up to many converts, Judaism holds no promise of eternal life but neither does it reject it. And the kicker: Judaism does not believe this life should be regarded as a “vale of tears”; on the contrary, life and all its pleasures must be fully participated in with abundant joy. And, most of all, G-d’s Will in all things.

To your point, I have to say, I was coming to that conclusion( in red) on my own, just processing your responses so far.

All I can say, I’ll pray for you meltzerboy

 

[meltzerboy]

So it was God’s hand, writing through Moses?

What about the prophets when they wrote?

NOTHING is infallible?

To be clearer, so we don’t talk past each other, here’s what I mean definitionally, by infallibility
#166

IOW, A pope can make all kinds of mistakes personally, on all kinds of subjects, however, when he teaches/defines a doctrine on faith and morals ONLY, and it is to be followed by the entire Church, THEN that teaching/doctrine, is irreformable i.e. infallible.

Yet Moses was excluded from the promised land. I’m just asking, how is Moses the greatest?

I didn’t give all the references before, so I’ll add 2 more

Ecc 12:14 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with[a] every secret thing, whether good or evil.

**Dan 12:2 **2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It’s that word “everlasting” I’m focusing on.

“Christ” = newadvent.org/cathen/08374x.htm

The word Christ, Christos, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messias, means “anointed.”… for space I won’t copy the full definition and explanation given one can read that link.

With all respect, doing a cost benefit analysis, What if one has a great life here, comparatively speaking, but ends up as **Dan 12:2 says **they awake, to shame and everlasting contempt.

The “Law” after all, doesn’t save even if one does their best to follow it. No matter how many bulls and goats are sacrificed, that doesn’t forgive sins.

To your point, I have to say, I was coming to that conclusion( in red) on my own, just processing your responses so far.

All I can say, I’ll pray for you meltzerboy

Christianity’s notion of salvation (and Islam’s) is different from that of Judaism. Christianity seeks a personal salvation of the individual and their soul, whereas Judaism seeks a collective salvation of the Jewish people, who serve as a guide for all of humanity. But Judaism’s notion of salvation is equally spiritual in addition to being temporally bound. The spirituality emanates from the obedience to the Law in deed particularly. Even mundane behavior such as the foods we eat, the way we treat our pets, having sex, the grieving process, work ethics, the way we act in front of disabled people, and so on all take on a holy character and, in this sense, become spiritual behavior. It is only through the Law that we can even be aware of this kind of behavior, and we are thus able to achieve salvation through the Law even if not the kind of salvation found in the teachings of Christianity. A good person will not awake to everlasting shame and contempt since that kind of person is already saved through their practice of the Law in its essence as well as its details to the best of their ability. That is, the commandments in and of themselves are the salvation of the Jews and of all of humanity.

 

[steve_b]

Christianity’s notion of salvation (and Islam’s) is different from that of Judaism. Christianity seeks a personal salvation of the individual and their soul, whereas Judaism seeks a collective salvation of the Jewish people, who serve as a guide for all of humanity. But Judaism’s notion of salvation is equally spiritual in addition to being temporally bound. The spirituality emanates from the obedience to the Law in deed particularly. Even mundane behavior such as the foods we eat, the way we treat our pets, having sex, the grieving process, work ethics, the way we act in front of disabled people, and so on all take on a holy character and, in this sense, become spiritual behavior. It is only through the Law that we can even be aware of this kind of behavior, and we are thus able to achieve salvation through the Law even if not the kind of salvation found in the teachings of Christianity. A good person will not awake to everlasting shame and contempt since that kind of person is already saved through their practice of the Law in its essence as well as its details to the best of their ability. That is, the commandments in and of themselves are the salvation of the Jews and of all of humanity.

The question is, define “good”

Even Jesus challenged a person who called Jesus good. IOW Jesus was asking the man, by what standard is being used to call me good.

Why do you call me good can be said in a number of ways by what is amphasized

1. 
   *]WHY do you call me good?
   *]Why do YOU call me good?
   *]Why do you **CALL **me good
   *]Why do you call **ME **good?
   *]Why do you call me GOOD
   
   If salvation was possible by observing works of the law, then there is no need for a New and everlasting covenant. The old would be just fine.
   
   The problem is, no one can keep perfectly the OT Law. And the law can’t forgive sins once the law is broken. The high priests sacrificed animals for sins, but that didn’t forgive sins. If one even then, could go straight to God and have their sins forgiven, why the animal sacrifices? Why priests? etc etc. Why the New covenant?
   
   Without the NT understanding, people remain in their sins.
   
   Saul who became Paul, was a Pharisee. He was a student of Rabbi Gamaliel who was called Rabban. jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6494-gamaliel-i
   
   He knew the law perfectly. So did Jesus. And Jesus kept the law perfectly.

 

[meltzerboy]

The question is, define “good”

Even Jesus challenged a person who called Jesus good. IOW Jesus was asking the man, by what standard is being used to call me good.

Why do you call me good can be said in a number of ways by what is amphasized

1. 
   *]WHY do you call me good?
   *]Why do YOU call me good?
   *]Why do you **CALL **me good
   *]Why do you call **ME **good?
   *]Why do you call me GOOD
   
   If salvation was possible by observing works of the law, then there is no need for a New and everlasting covenant. The old would be just fine.
   
   The problem is, no one can keep perfectly the OT Law. And the law can’t forgive sins once the law is broken. The high priests sacrificed animals for sins, but that didn’t forgive sins. If one even then, could go straight to God and have their sins forgiven, why the animal sacrifices? Why priests? etc etc. Why the New covenant?
   
   Without the NT understanding, people remain in their sins.
   
   Saul who became Paul, was a Pharisee. He was a student of Rabbi Gamaliel who was called Rabban. jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6494-gamaliel-i
   
   He knew the law perfectly. So did Jesus. And Jesus kept the law perfectly.

1. 
   Moses wrote in the G-d-inspired Book of Deuteronomy that it is not so hard to keep the commandments. Thus he, and presumably G-d, was encouraging the people that even though following the Law might appear hard or even impossible, it was not really so. Nonetheless, I agree with you that no one can keep the Law perfectly but I do not agree that this is a problem. We have an all-merciful G-d Who would not provide us with a Law that we are incapable of practicing. That would not make any sense. If we slip up since we are only human, G-d forgives us our missing the mark, that is, committing sin. That is what prayer, repentance, and atonement are all about. Moreover, contrary to popular belief, Judaism is not really a religion that emphasizes sinful behavior, but rather, its focus is behavior that is kind and compassionate. That is, according to Jewish theology, positive behaviors outweigh negative ones, as do the commandments.
   
   With regard to the animal blood sacrifices in the Hebrew Bible, they are an adjunct to accompany our inner atonement through prayer and charitable behavior. Further, they were never meant to erase intentional sins, only sins which are unintentional, with one exception (swearing falsely to the accusation for theft). All of this is clearly delineated in the Hebrew Bible, for example, Leviticus. Indeed many people who could not travel to the Temple were allowed to substitute ritual sacrifice such as grains in place of animal blood sacrifice. Thus blood sacrifice was considered the LEAST important means of forgiveness from sin. Much more important were/are prayer and good deeds toward others.

 

[eddie_too]

meltzer boy,

are you the official spokesman for judaism? if not, how authoritative should we consider your interpretations of judaism? could you estimate what percentage of those who claim to be of the jewish faith would agree with your interpretations?

just asking because you write as though your interpretations of the jewish faith are definitive.

i never realized that the jewish faith had ever infallibly defined its beliefs.

 

[meltzerboy]

meltzer boy,

are you the official spokesman for judaism? if not, how authoritative should we consider your interpretations of judaism? could you estimate what percentage of those who claim to be of the jewish faith would agree with your interpretations?

just asking because you write as though your interpretations of the jewish faith are definitive.

i never realized that the jewish faith had ever infallibly defined its beliefs.

There is no official spokesperson for Judaism. I never stated I was; I am merely trying to answer another poster’s questions. I even pointed out that Moses, our greatest prophet, is not regarded as infallible. Only G-d is. This is my understanding of Judaism, realizing there are differing views on many issues (which I have noted), but my understanding is based on information I have gleaned through the years. And there are certain principles within Judaism that nearly all Jews share to some extent.

 

[jcrichton]

Moses could NOT have made mistakes in what he wrote because he did not technically write anything of his own; rather, he transmitted the Word of G-d, which is the Law (Torah). He was a vessel, so to speak, when he wrote the Law. And even here, the Law itself must be interpreted by fallible humans as best they can and with the aid of the Oral Law and, for some, the Kabbalah. As a man, whatever Moses may have taught ON HIS OWN cannot be counted as infallible, even if guided by the Holy Spirit and even if authoritative due to his standing as the greatest of the prophets, and the latter for several reasons. As a result, the other prophets, while in no way negligible but, on the contrary, very wise and even inspired by G-d, are less credible when compared to Moses. Their writings are not part of the Torah Law of Moses although they are part of the Hebrew Bible.

                                                                                                                                         With regard to Sheol, it is the resting place of all humans. The notion of Gehenna evolved from Sheol, and the former is more representative of what Christianity and Islam refer to as Hell.  The Messiah, according to the definition of the term in Judaism, cannot save us from hell; it is simply not his role.  **Perhaps that is why Christians call Jesus their L-rd and Savior since the Messiah HAD to become G-d Himself, according to Christian belief, to offer salvation from eternal damnation**.

Despite modern Judaism’s major belief (not limited to Orthodox Judaism) in the resurrection of the body and the eternal peace of the immortal soul, this is NOT (I repeat) the main focus of the religion. Rather, living an earthly life of goodness, meaning, and love of G-d and our fellow man by means of our compassionate behavior is the main focus. Sadder but wiser, perhaps, and certainly not opening itself up to many converts, Judaism holds no promise of eternal life but neither does it reject it. And the kicker: Judaism does not believe this life should be regarded as a “vale of tears”; on the contrary, life and all its pleasures must be fully participated in with abundant joy. And, most of all, G-d’s Will in all things.

Hi, Meltzelboy!

…I thought a point of clarification to be in order…

Christians do not believe that Jesus had to become God in order to Save man from Eternal Damnation.

Christ is the Immanuel (God-with-us), the Word Incarnate, the One that never ceased being God:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

(St. John 1:1-5)
It is He Who Promised that He would Come to His Own, to the Temple.

The same that prophesied, through Moses, that Israel would turn from Him and that He would Call those who were not His people into being His people.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi, Meltzelboy!

…I thought a point of clarification to be in order…

Christians do not believe that Jesus had to become God in order to Save man from Eternal Damnation.

Christ is the Immanuel (God-with-us), the Word Incarnate, the One that never ceased being God:

It is He Who Promised that He would Come to His Own, to the Temple.

The same that prophesied, through Moses, that Israel would turn from Him and that He would Call those who were not His people into being His people.

Maran atha!

Angel

I can understand how you might have read what I wrote that way. No, I did not mean that Jesus became G-d in the sense of changing to G-d. I realize Christians believe Jesus is/was always G-d. What I meant is that Jesus had to be G-d according to Christian teaching in order to save mankind from eternal damnation since, stemming from Judaism, the Messiah did not have that function. Now, you might also disagree with this statement on Christian theology, but I want to clarify what I meant.

 

[jcrichton]

Christianity’s notion of salvation (and Islam’s) is different from that of Judaism. Christianity seeks a personal salvation of the individual and their soul, whereas Judaism seeks a collective salvation of the Jewish people, who serve as a guide for all of humanity. But Judaism’s notion of salvation is equally spiritual in addition to being temporally bound. The spirituality emanates from the obedience to the Law in deed particularly. Even mundane behavior such as the foods we eat, the way we treat our pets, having sex, the grieving process, work ethics, the way we act in front of disabled people, and so on all take on a holy character and, in this sense, become spiritual behavior. It is only through the Law that we can even be aware of this kind of behavior, and we are thus able to achieve salvation through the Law even if not the kind of salvation found in the teachings of Christianity. A good person will not awake to everlasting shame and contempt since that kind of person is already saved through their practice of the Law in its essence as well as its details to the best of their ability. That is, the commandments in and of themselves are the salvation of the Jews and of all of humanity.

Hi, Meltzerboy!

…but isn’t the requirement of the Commandments that you not break a single one since braking one Commandment makes the upholding the rest void?

…could a “good” person not practice “goodness” towards his own kin while practicing injustice when dealing with others?

…could a “good” person not follow temptation towards whatever end?

…consider those who have left the Faith… they may still be cultural-Jews but they have ceased practicing Judaism… if they engage in breaking the Law how is their “goodness” going to Save them?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi, Meltzerboy!

…but isn’t the requirement of the Commandments that you not break a single one since braking one Commandment makes the upholding the rest void?

…could a “good” person not practice “goodness” towards his own kin while practicing injustice when dealing with others?

…could a “good” person not follow temptation towards whatever end?

…consider those who have left the Faith… they may still be cultural-Jews but they have ceased practicing Judaism… if they engage in breaking the Law how is their “goodness” going to Save them?

Maran atha!

Angel

Of course, as in your faith, G-d is the One Who ultimately makes that decision. But, according to my understanding, you do not have to be Jewish to be saved. And that word “saved,” as I have explained elsewhere, is quite different in meaning from the Christian sense of the term. While the “elders” of the religion tend to take a dim view of Jewish apostates, I do not believe they are forever thrown out of G-d’s community even if they may no longer be welcome within the Jewish community.

Regarding the Law, perfection is not required. The striving toward perfection (or improvement) is what G-d most likely expects of us, according to many rabbinical views, including Orthodox rabbis. If one does not, or feels one cannot, keep the Law in its entirety, it is up to the individual to seek forgiveness and wisdom for his shortcomings and try to do better the next time. Small increments of self-improvement are, we believe, pleasing to G-d. I have even heard it said that those who repent by turning away from their negative behavior and moving in a more positive direction may be viewed in an even better light than those who are more righteous to begin with.

 

[jcrichton]

I can understand how you might have read what I wrote that way. No, I did not mean that Jesus became G-d in the sense of changing to G-d. I realize Christians believe Jesus is/was always G-d. What I meant is that Jesus had to be G-d according to Christian teaching in order to save mankind from eternal damnation since, stemming from Judaism, the Messiah did not have that function. Now, you might also disagree with this statement on Christian theology, but I want to clarify what I meant.

Hi, Meltzerboy!

…thank you for your clarification!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[graciew]

Of course, as in your faith, G-d is the One Who ultimately makes that decision. But, according to my understanding, you do not have to be Jewish to be saved. And that word “saved,” as I have explained elsewhere, is quite different in meaning from the Christian sense of the term. While the “elders” of the religion tend to take a dim view of Jewish apostates, I do not believe they are forever thrown out of G-d’s community even if they may no longer be welcome within the Jewish community.

Regarding the Law, perfection is not required. The striving toward perfection (or improvement) is what G-d most likely expects of us, according to many rabbinical views, including Orthodox rabbis. If one does not, or feels one cannot, keep the Law in its entirety, it is up to the individual to seek forgiveness and wisdom for his shortcomings and try to do better the next time. Small increments of self-improvement are, we believe, pleasing to G-d. I have even heard it said that those who repent by turning away from their negative behavior and moving in a more positive direction may be viewed in an even better light than those who are more righteous to begin with.

Happy Passover,Meltzerboy!

 

[meltzerboy]

Happy Passover,Meltzerboy!

Thank you, graciew!

 

[steve_b]

Moses wrote in the G-d-inspired Book of Deuteronomy that it is not so hard to keep the commandments. Thus he, and presumably G-d, was encouraging the people that even though following the Law might appear hard or even impossible, it was not really so. Nonetheless, I agree with you that no one can keep the Law perfectly but I do not agree that this is a problem.

We have an all-merciful G-d Who would not provide us with a Law that we are incapable of practicing. That would not make any sense. If we slip up since we are only human, G-d forgives us our missing the mark, that is, committing sin. That is what prayer, repentance, and atonement are all about. Moreover, contrary to popular belief, Judaism is not really a religion that emphasizes sinful behavior, but rather, its focus is behavior that is kind and compassionate. That is, according to Jewish theology, positive behaviors outweigh negative ones, as do the commandments.

Yet Moses disobeyed God, and as a result, wasn’t allowed to enter the promised land.

Why?
m:

With regard to the animal blood sacrifices in the Hebrew Bible, they are an adjunct to accompany our inner atonement through prayer and charitable behavior. Further, they were never meant to erase intentional sins, only sins which are unintentional, with one exception (swearing falsely to the accusation for theft). All of this is clearly delineated in the Hebrew Bible, for example, Leviticus. Indeed many people who could not travel to the Temple were allowed to substitute ritual sacrifice such as grains in place of animal blood sacrifice. Thus blood sacrifice was considered the LEAST important means of forgiveness from sin. Much more important were/are prayer and good deeds toward others.

Wasn’t Moses doing good towards others? Yet he wasn’t allowed to enter the promised land.

From catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/that-moses-thing
here’s a *typolological comparison between Moses and Jesus
*
MOSES

1. Evil king tried to kill him as a baby (Ex. 1:22)
2. He was hidden from this evil king (Ex. 2:2)
3. He was saved by women: his mother (Ex. 2:3); Miriam, his sister (2:4, 7–8); and Pharaoh’s daughter (2:5–10)
4. Pharaoh’s daughter, the princess, adopted him (Ex. 2:10)
5. Therefore Moses was a prince (Ex. 2:10)
6. Long period of silence from youth to adulthood
7. He had a secret identity (Ex. 2:11–12)
8. He saved Hebrews (Ex. 2:11–12)
9. Went from prince to pauper (Ex. 2:15–19)
10. Saved women at a well (Ex. 2:16–19)
11. Saved gentile (Ex. 2:16–19)
12. Became a shepherd (Ex. 3:1)

General Observations:

1. Moses was a prophet
2. Often rejected by his own people
3. Led God’s people from bondage
4. Led to the Promised Land
5. Gave a law to live by from a mountain
6. Knew God better than anybody else

CHRIST

1. Herod tried to kill baby Jesus (Matt. 2:16)
2. An angel said to hide the child (Matt. 2:13)
3. Mary saved and helped Jesus (Matt. 2:14, Luke 2:48), and other women help Jesus (Luke 8:1–3)
4. Joseph adopted him (Matt. 1:25)
5. Was the Prince of Peace
6. Long period of silence from youth to adulthood
7. The Messianic secret—Jesus healed and asked that it remain secret (Matt. 8:4)
8. Of course he did!
9. Went from owning the universe to being a common workman (John 1:1–3, Mark 6:3)
10. Saved a Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:6–7, 25–26)
11. Saved *all *gentiles (Luke 2:29–32)
12. Is the Good Shepherd (John 10:11)

General Observations:

1. Jesus is *the *Prophet
2. His own people rejected him
3. Leads us from bondage of sin
4. Leads into the Kingdom of God
5. Gave us the Gospels and the New Testament
6. Of course he does!

And as another observation, Moses wasn’t allowed to enter the promised land. WHY?

A great episode that took place in the NT is the transfiguration of Jesus on top of Mt Tabor

Who is there?

• Jesus
• Peter James and John.
• Moses (representing the law,) and Elijah (representing the prophets) i.e. the entire OT is there,

and God the Father speaks.

"This is my beloved Son [Jesus], listen to Him"

Matthew 17:5
He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” | Full Chapter |

Mark 9:7
And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him.” | Full Chapter |

Luke 9:35
And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” | Full Chapter |

At this point in time, Heaven hadn’t been opened … yet.
Moses and Elijah and in extension, EVERYONE, saw now, who the law and the prophets were pointing to, it is JESUS.

 

[meltzerboy]

Yet Moses disobeyed God, and as a result, wasn’t allowed to enter the promised land.

Why?

Wasn’t Moses doing good towards others? Yet he wasn’t allowed to enter the promised land.

From catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/that-moses-thing
here’s a typolological comparison between Moses and Jesus

MOSES

1. Evil king tried to kill him as a baby (Ex. 1:22)
2. He was hidden from this evil king (Ex. 2:2)
3. He was saved by women: his mother (Ex. 2:3); Miriam, his sister (2:4, 7–8); and Pharaoh’s daughter (2:5–10)
4. Pharaoh’s daughter, the princess, adopted him (Ex. 2:10)
5. Therefore Moses was a prince (Ex. 2:10)
6. Long period of silence from youth to adulthood
7. He had a secret identity (Ex. 2:11–12)
8. He saved Hebrews (Ex. 2:11–12)
9. Went from prince to pauper (Ex. 2:15–19)
10. Saved women at a well (Ex. 2:16–19)
11. Saved gentile (Ex. 2:16–19)
12. Became a shepherd (Ex. 3:1)

General Observations:

1. Moses was a prophet
2. Often rejected by his own people
3. Led God’s people from bondage
4. Led to the Promised Land
5. Gave a law to live by from a mountain
6. Knew God better than anybody else

CHRIST

1. Herod tried to kill baby Jesus (Matt. 2:16)
2. An angel said to hide the child (Matt. 2:13)
3. Mary saved and helped Jesus (Matt. 2:14, Luke 2:48), and other women help Jesus (Luke 8:1–3)
4. Joseph adopted him (Matt. 1:25)
5. Was the Prince of Peace
6. Long period of silence from youth to adulthood
7. The Messianic secret—Jesus healed and asked that it remain secret (Matt. 8:4)
8. Of course he did!
9. Went from owning the universe to being a common workman (John 1:1–3, Mark 6:3)
10. Saved a Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:6–7, 25–26)
11. Saved *all *gentiles (Luke 2:29–32)
12. Is the Good Shepherd (John 10:11)

General Observations:

1. Jesus is *the *Prophet
2. His own people rejected him
3. Leads us from bondage of sin
4. Leads into the Kingdom of God
5. Gave us the Gospels and the New Testament
6. Of course he does!

And as another observation, Moses wasn’t allowed to enter the promised land. WHY?

A great episode that took place in the NT is the transfiguration of Jesus on top of Mt Tabor

Who is there?

• Jesus
• Peter James and John.
• Moses (representing the law,) and Elijah (representing the prophets) i.e. the entire OT is there,

and God the Father speaks.

"This is my beloved Son [Jesus], listen to Him"

Matthew 17:5
He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” | Full Chapter |

Mark 9:7
And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him.” | Full Chapter |

Luke 9:35
And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” | Full Chapter |

At this point in time, Heaven hadn’t been opened … yet.
Moses and Elijah and in extension, EVERYONE, saw now, who the law and the prophets were pointing to, it is JESUS.

All of the above, as another Jewish poster has often stated, depends on whether you accept the New Testament as gospel, so to speak. Jews do not accept it as holy, inspired text but rather as narrative. You, as a Christian, begin by accepting it as Holy Scripture (as you do the OT), and therefore attempt to work backwards to reveal that the revelations in the Hebrew Bible point toward those of the Gospels, which, by definition, are the final revelation. That is your reference point, but it is not that of Judaism.

Further, what you note would indicate that Jesus was a prophet or THE prophet, as you say, and possibly the Messiah, although the latter, as I have pointed out, becomes Savior in addition to Anointed One according to Christian teaching. What the verses do NOT reveal is that Jesus is G-d. Indeed they point toward something else: for example, “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” The verse does not say: “This is me, your G-d, in another form.” The notion of a Trinitarian G-d, including the Holy Spirit as well, and that Jesus is both perfectly human and perfectly divine is something that the Church would wrestle with and decide upon at a later date.

Of course Moses disobeyed G-d; he was only human despite his being the lawgiver.

 

[jcrichton]

All of the above, as another Jewish poster has often stated, depends on whether you accept the New Testament as gospel, so to speak. Jews do not accept it as holy, inspired text but rather as narrative. You, as a Christian, begin by accepting it as Holy Scripture (as you do the OT), and therefore attempt to work backwards to reveal that the revelations in the Hebrew Bible point toward those of the Gospels, which, by definition, are the final revelation. That is your reference point, but it is not that of Judaism.

Further, what you note would indicate that Jesus was a prophet or THE prophet, as you say, and possibly the Messiah, although the latter, as I have pointed out, becomes Savior in addition to Anointed One according to Christian teaching. What the verses do NOT reveal is that Jesus is G-d. Indeed they point toward something else: for example, “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” The verse does not say: “This is me, your G-d, in another form.” The notion of a Trinitarian G-d, including the Holy Spirit as well, and that Jesus is both perfectly human and perfectly divine is something that the Church would wrestle with and decide upon at a later date.

Of course Moses disobeyed G-d; he was only human despite his being the lawgiver.

Hi, Meltzerboy!

…you are correct in regards to that that particular verse cited does not explicitly states that Yahweh God made it Known that Jesus, the Son, was His Revelation of the Promise that He would Come to the Temple and, as the Immanuel, be the God-with-His-people.

…you are incorrect in the assumption that the Church wrestled with Jesus’ Divinity and Incarnation (becoming man) and that she only decided upon this on a letter date.

As with other terms (i.e.: Holy Trinity) it took time for them to be Taught as such but the Belief and Understanding is there from Apostolic Teaching:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

(St. John 1:1-5)

6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. 7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens. 11 They shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment. 12 And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame, and thy years shall not fail. (Hebrews 1:6-12)

1 Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: 3 And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world. 4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome him. Because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore of the world they speak, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 St. John 4:1-6)
So you are correct as far as the introduction of terminologies and Doctrine; yet, you are wrong when it concerns Christian Faith and Practice–from the Sacred Scriptures Jesus is Known to be the Revelation of God as the Immanuel, as well as the Incarnate Word Who Existed, as God, from the Beginning!

Jesus, the God that Saves: True God and True man… not a “notion” wrestled down in the Church hundreds of years after the fact!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi, Meltzerboy!

…you are correct in regards to that that particular verse cited does not explicitly states that Yahweh God made it Known that Jesus, the Son, was His Revelation of the Promise that He would Come to the Temple and, as the Immanuel, be the God-with-His-people.

…you are incorrect in the assumption that the Church wrestled with Jesus’ Divinity and Incarnation (becoming man) and that she only decided upon this on a letter date.

As with other terms (i.e.: Holy Trinity) it took time for them to be Taught as such but the Belief and Understanding is there from Apostolic Teaching:

So you are correct as far as the introduction of terminologies and Doctrine; yet, you are wrong when it concerns Christian Faith and Practice–from the Sacred Scriptures Jesus is Known to be the Revelation of God as the Immanuel, as well as the Incarnate Word Who Existed, as God, from the Beginning!

Jesus, the God that Saves: True God and True man… not a “notion” wrestled down in the Church hundreds of years after the fact!

Maran atha!

Angel

I certainly do not mean that the Church made up the Trinitarian G-d out of cheesecloth. But did the Church still not have to interpret what the Apostles meant in their writing? I thought that even the Apostles were not necessarily uniform in their views regarding the divinity of Jesus, let alone the Trinity. And we know there were all sorts of notions to explain what the Trinity really is (there still are comparisons by Christian apologists, most or all of which fall somewhat short), some of which were branded as heresies by the Church. After all, this must have been a monumental step going from the Jewish belief that G-d is indivisible in any way, shape, form, or function to believing that there are three distinct Persons who form One G-d. And added to that the belief that Jesus is completely human as well as completely divine: the hypostatic union consisting of two natures that are neither mixed together nor combined into another, third nature. This must have been open to discussion and debate by the Church Fathers with the Biblical text as a guiding reference point. Besides, is the Trinity still not considered a mystery by the Church?

 

[steve_b]

All of the above, as another Jewish poster has often stated, depends on whether you accept the New Testament as gospel, so to speak.

Is anyone more Jewish than Jesus? or His apostles? Or His followers in the beginning?

What you are eluding to is a split between Jews within Judaism. In your previous posts, you elude to many splits in Judaism. And there is a wide range of beliefs in Judaism.
m:

Jews do not accept it as holy, inspired text but rather as narrative.

On the contrary, Jews DID accepted it as inspired. Just not the Jews you refer to.
m:

You, as a Christian, begin by accepting it as Holy Scripture (as you do the OT), and therefore attempt to work backwards to reveal that the revelations in the Hebrew Bible point toward those of the Gospels, which, by definition, are the final revelation. That is your reference point, but it is not that of Judaism.

Allow me to re emphasize, NO ONE is more Jewish than Jesus. The Church in the beginning was 100% Jewish. Jesus didn’t even want His apostles going to the Gentiles in the beginning. Only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Matthew 10:6
but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.In Context | Full Chapter |

Matthew 15:24

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”In Context | Full Chapter |

Obviously Jesus expanded that
m:

Further, what you note would indicate that Jesus was a prophet or THE prophet, as you say, and possibly the Messiah, although the latter, as I have pointed out, becomes Savior in addition to Anointed One according to Christian teaching.

People were saying He was a prophet.

All that came through the Jews as well. It is ALL prefigured in the OT and fulfilled in the New.
m:

What the verses do NOT reveal is that Jesus is G-d.

My bad,

I didn’t quote the verses that DO say Jesus is God.

John a Jew, and an apostle of Jesus, wrote In his Gospel

(emphasis mine)

Jn 1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.a] 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”

Jesus is the “Word” being spoken of there.

John is giving us, if you will, a new Genesis story.
m:

Indeed they point toward something else: for example, “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” The verse does not say: “This is me, your G-d, in another form.” The notion of a Trinitarian G-d, including the Holy Spirit as well, and that Jesus is both perfectly human and perfectly divine is something that the Church would wrestle with and decide upon at a later date.

The word Trinity was not there in the beginning but the understanding was clearly there from the beginning.

Re: Genesis

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”In Context | Full Chapter |

Q: who is us referring to? Who is ***our *** referring to?
m:

Of course Moses disobeyed G-d; he was only human despite his being the lawgiver.

So why exclude him from the promised land?