Hell exists BECAUSE God loves us!

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Which is pure nonsense. The past injustcies cannot be “undone”. There is no “justice”. How do you deliver “justice” to rapist, according to the “eye for eye” concept of the Old Testament? Are you going to ^&*% him? (Yes… I used 4 letters, and it was not an accident).
So you cannot offer any better answer to the rape victim? :hmmm:
It is NOT changing at all. Just for the fun of it, I was contemplating that the explanation would be actually too hard for us to understand (which is nonsense), and showed it that even in such a case the personal comfort of a “loving” God would be a good “substitute”. But that flew right over your head.
Be careful, Trurl. It is good for you to be here and to be able to be in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics. You are starting to get shrill and banning would be a shame.

You need to be here.
 
Thank you, Sarah! So now we BOTH can waste time on explaining the obvious… I am getting close to bowing out. I am tempted to quote the old saying about trying to argue with the irrational ones. What the heck… here comes: “Do not try to argue with the ‘irrational’ people. They cannot understand what you say, and they will try to drag you down to their level of ‘irrationality’…”. Such a sad thing that we MUST use the word “irrational” as a substitute for what reality is… but expressing reality is frowned upon.
Incidentally, are you still looking for those peer-reviewed studies that state that when one receives a painless injection it is because you had a good nurse?

Or are we just going to acknowledge that you have made another proclamation that is based not on science but on your own faith?
 
By the way, the alleged “infinite knowledge of God” is completely irrelevant, even if it were true. The explanation of an unknown has nothing to do with the knowledge of the “teacher”, and it has everything to do withe the comprehension of the student and the complexity of the problem. In this case the problem is very simple. There is a cause and an effect. We are more than well equipped to comprehend “A” causes “B”. But I am afraid you will not understand this either.
Yep. You’re right. I have no idea what you’re saying. :whacky:

This is in response to…what?
Sheer baloney. And that catholics can “experience” God by consuming the “eucharist”, which is both a bread, and not a bread, and by sipping some wine, which is both wine and not wine… and - of course - these blatant contradictions are redefined to become “mysteries”.
I doubt that you could offer any kind of *apologia * regarding transubstantiation, so I will leave your comment above to speak for itself.
 
The Vatican apology was not for its treatment of the Jews, it was an apology for the inaction of some Catholics during the war when their Jewish neighbors were taken away.

"We deeply regret the errors and failure of those sons and daughters of the church," the Vatican paper said. "We cannot know how many Christians in countries occupied or ruled by the Nazi powers or their allies were horrified at the disappearance of their Jewish neighbors and yet were not strong enough to raise their voices in protest."
tech.mit.edu/V118/N13/bvatican.13w.html

Insinuations about the Church’s mistreatment of Jewish people before and during WWII need to be backed-up. A snide comment is not sufficient. Especially when the remark is made in association with a false claim.
 
So you cannot offer any better answer to the rape victim? :hmmm:

Be careful, Trurl. It is good for you to be here and to be able to be in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics. You are starting to get shrill and banning would be a shame.

You need to be here.
Another dream occurred to me this morning. This one was even more horrific than the first. These dreams must reveal something about the unfathomable mystery of evil present in the subconscious mind, but, nevertheless, I feel I must cathartically “get this bizarre dream out of my memory.”

In the dream, a young woman was being horribly gang-raped 25 times and skinned alive with electrodes applied. (Honestly, I don’t know from what incomprehensibly twisted source these awful images enter my mind!)

In any case, after the dream, I thought about what meaning such a nightmare could have.

From an “objective” perspective it would be difficult to understand how this act could be reconciled with a loving God. Why would a loving God allow such a thing to occur? Obviously, he didn’t do it, but he allowed it to happen. From this “objective” perspective God is as culpable as the perpetrators because he allowed it to occur when he has available to him, as God, the means (will and power) to stop it.

Then it dawned on me. This so called “objective” perspective is not objective at all. It is fraught with all kinds of biases. First of all, this perspective views the suffering of the woman as paramount in considering the evil - this perspective places the evil into the suffering, so to speak, rather than locating the evil, squarely where it belongs, in the actions of the perpetrators. From this perspective, if the woman didn’t suffer, then no evil would have been committed. Removal of suffering, by this presumption, would effectively nullify the “evil” of the act. So, if that were the case, could drugging the woman so she experienced only extreme pleasure undergoing the experience make it a good act? I think not!

So the evil must be in something other than merely the suffering: in the actual harm done to the “being” of the woman. To be sure, suffering is caused by the evil, but to transfer the evil and equate it to the suffering is to misconstrue something very crucial here.

Note, however, that under an atheistic/materialistic perspective, the “being” of the woman is found only in her physical integrity, since mind/emotion are mere epiphenomena reducible to biochemical processes. The evil would come to an end at her death, since no more harm could be done to her physical being.
Under a Christian or theistic perspective, the “being” of the woman is more than just her body and could transcend and extend beyond her physical death.

In either case, actual harm was done to the woman and that harm was the result of the evil intentions and actions of the assaulters. We should not lose sight of this. Without that evil, no harm to the woman would have come about, but the evil would still exist in the will of the rapers. Had they not carried out the act but only willed it, the evil in their wills would still exist.

However, an atheist/materialist is very much limited by his/her presumptions about the nature of human agency and would likely not consider the perpetrators as “evil” but as disordered or dysfunctional in some way. It seems that this very perspective of the “benign” nature of human action becomes twisted, reversed and magnified by an atheist when responsibility is applied to God. The human perpetrators are merely dysfunctional for committing the act, but God is a horrific monster for allowing it.

The question of God’s role does need consideration, but this question can only be answered by adequately understanding how God could or does act.

If God is “imagined” as wholly responsible for every act that occurs, as if the universe and human agents were tightly and deterministically controlled at every level (the only possible “God” under an atheistic/materialist conception), then God would appear to be wholly culpable.

However, the God of Christianity is not the “god” of the atheistic/materialist. The Christian understanding of God must turn to Jesus for clarity.

The crucifixion of Jesus would seem to be the male parallel of the woman being gang raped and skinned alive. Jesus’ skin was shredded by whipping. He was personally degraded, berated and humiliated by a “gang.” He was hung on a cross in excruciating pain for hours and a spear was thrust into his body to insure death had occurred.

Continued…
 
…from previous

The question, “Why would God allow such a thing?” when asked of the woman is also just as appropriate when asked of Jesus. A possible deist “god” might simply not care about the woman, but Jesus, if he can possibly be held accountable as God, would have to explain not only how the woman’s treatment could be allowed, but why would an all-powerful, all-good God allow his own traumatic death when he could have acted to prevent it?

If evil exists, not primarily in suffering but in harm done, then harm must be measured as the destruction or degeneration of good. The reducing of what “is” (being) into nothingness (non-being). The worst possible evil would be to harm or destroy the best possible good, Being itself. The crucifixion of God on the cross was precisely that - the destruction of Goodness (Being) itself. So why would God allow this despicable act to happen? Why would he become a man, knowing that his murder would occur and knowing that it was the most evil act possible?

The Christian answer, as far as it can be understood, is that by incarnating himself as a man, Jesus (God) became one with every human being. In a sense, infused himself into the nature of humanity to “take on” our very beings. Whatever evil is done to any of us is, not just vicariously, but in brute fact, done to him. ”Whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do to me." He makes himself fully present in and to every human being that suffers at the hands of others; this would include the woman traumatized by the gang.

This means that every human being has been offered a share, “a oneness” with him. However, by doing evil, we separate ourselves from his divine life and risk losing it altogether.

In the Christian view, the real evil of the perpetrators of the rape, is in their separation from the possibility of sharing in “Goodness,” in Being itself. That evil when inflicted upon the woman need never cause ultimate harm to the woman because God would remain one with her through all her suffering, as he committed himself to being on the cross. Certainly, physical harm, would be done, but physical harm can be repaired and her body resurrected, just as Jesus was, by the absolute power of God.

Ironically, if the Christian perspective is the true one, it is the atheist/materialistic perspective that could act as a gateway for despair and evil. Anyone who suffers at the hands of the evil will of others may, out of despair, allow evil to become a motivational force in their own lives. They may hate and do evil to others to repay for evil done to them. Thus, forgiveness, turning the other cheek and trusting in the goodness and promise of God being with them to overcome all evil, could very well be the antidote to evil. The spread of evil is to be halted by trust in God rather than repaying evil for evil.

Jesus on the cross and Jesus resurrected stand as cogent reminders that the Christian view on suffering is profoundly beyond that which an atheist/materialist can even conceive. That is why suffering offers a profound impediment for the atheist, but does not for the Christian.
 
From this perspective, if the woman didn’t suffer, then no evil would have been committed. Removal of suffering, by this presumption, would effectively nullify the “evil” of the act. So, if that were the case, could drugging the woman so she experienced only extreme pleasure undergoing the experience make it a good act? I think not!
A most trenchant point.

There exists objectively evil acts, based on objective standards. That is, they are always evil, in all cases, at all times.
So the evil must be in something other than merely the suffering: in the actual harm done to the “being” of the woman. To be sure, suffering is caused by the evil, but to transfer the evil and equate it to the suffering is to misconstrue something very crucial here.
Indeed. That is the philosophical error that was being promulgated here.
Note, however, that under an atheistic/materialistic perspective, the “being” of the woman is found only in her physical integrity, since mind/emotion are mere epiphenomena reducible to biochemical processes. The evil would come to an end at her death, since no more harm could be done to her physical being.
Or, the evil would end when she became drugged and high.
 
In the dream, a young woman was being horribly gang-raped 25 times and skinned alive with electrodes applied. (Honestly, I don’t know from what incomprehensibly twisted source these awful images enter my mind!)
Me neither, but I would be concerned if these types of ‘‘dreams’’ start to occur frequently! 🤷
Then it dawned on me. This so called “objective” perspective is not objective at all. It is fraught with all kinds of biases. First of all, this perspective views the suffering of the woman as paramount in considering the evil - this perspective places the evil into the suffering, so to speak, rather than locating the evil, squarely where it belongs, in the actions of the perpetrators. From this perspective, if the woman didn’t suffer, then no evil would have been committed. Removal of suffering, by this presumption, would effectively nullify the “evil” of the act. So, if that were the case, could drugging the woman so she experienced only extreme pleasure undergoing the experience make it a good act? I think not!
What has just ‘‘dawned’’ on you is nothing that any counselor, therapist or rape victim hasn’t known since forever - the harm done to the woman (and occasionally man) is not a relative equation based on the suffering felt - the more one suffers as a result of the act, the more evil the act was. No, see, that mentality is precisely the mentality that allowed for women to be considered chattel.

Did you know some women, when being raped, experienced orgasm 🤷

What you’ve just realized, in a dream ( 🤷 ) is what the rest of us have always known - the evil belongs to the doer.
However, an atheist/materialist is very much limited by his/her presumptions about the nature of human agency and would likely not consider the perpetrators as “evil” but as disordered or dysfunctional in some way.
Which they are.
It seems that this very perspective of the “benign” nature of human action becomes twisted, reversed and magnified by an atheist when responsibility is applied to God. The human perpetrators are merely dysfunctional for committing the act, but God is a horrific monster for allowing it.
Not sure why you would call being mentally ill or dysfunctional, ‘‘benign’’. Rapists aren’t all powerful, all knowing, all loving, everywhere present, eternal, loving ‘‘fathers’’ as the claim is made for a Deity. That’s the difference.

Sarah x 🙂
 
…The crucifixion of God on the cross was precisely that - the destruction of Goodness (Being) itself.
He didn’t 🤷

Goodness was never destroyed on the Cross 🤷

Jesus went immediately to Hades, where He spoke to the souls there, then resurrected three days later.

At no point was He, or Goodness destroyed 🤷
this would include the woman traumatized by the gang.
Speaking personally, I would rather the woman wasn’t raped, than to know somehow, in some way, Jesus was suffering what she was suffering.

I find that of no comfort what so ever.
Ironically, if the Christian perspective is the true one, it is the atheist/materialistic perspective that could act as a gateway for despair and evil.
It is the Christian perspective that allows for man to do as much evil as he likes, convert, repent, and enjoy eternal bliss 🤷
Thus, forgiveness, turning the other cheek and trusting in the goodness and promise of God being with them to overcome all evil, could very well be the antidote to evil.
All I can say is thank goodness our police and judiciary don’t take the same view.
That is why suffering offers a profound impediment for the atheist, but does not for the Christian.
On the contrary, Christians, and the Catholic Church, struggle to explain suffering in any meaningful way. The word ‘‘mystery’’ is gainfully employed 🤷
Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”.
Sarah x 🙂
 
All I can say is thank goodness our police and judiciary don’t take the same view.
i’m not christian. but isnt forgiveness and turning the other cheek a good moral practice for the average person? especially in marriage.
 
i’m not christian. but isnt forgiveness and turning the other cheek a good moral practice for the average person? especially in marriage.
Valid point – and our justice system ideally does not believe in “revenge” or even “punishment” as the reason for incarceration. Pragmatically, however, incarceration may be necessary to ensure the safety of others.

Case in point – you forgive the man who raped and killed your loved one. You love him, even. That may be a wonderful thing; however, if this individual is not incarcerated, he may rape and kill someone else’s loved one. For the safety of others–the protection of “society”-- he needs to put in a position where he is no longer capable of harming them.
 
i’m not christian. but isnt forgiveness and turning the other cheek a good moral practice for the average person? especially in marriage.
What are we talking about here? My husband not clearing up after dinner? Or him having an affair with his senior accountant who’s a Spanish ex glamor model :eek: 😃

One gets him a loving smack on the head.

The other gets his bits unlovingly removed with a chainsaw.

😃

Sarah x 🙂
 
Valid point – and our justice system ideally does not believe in “revenge” or even “punishment” as the reason for incarceration. Pragmatically, however, incarceration may be necessary to ensure the safety of others.

Case in point – you forgive the man who raped and killed your loved one. You love him, even. That may be a wonderful thing; however, if this individual is not incarcerated, he may rape and kill someone else’s loved one. For the safety of others–the protection of “society”-- he needs to put in a position where he is no longer capable of harming them.
i dont think forgiveness is applicable in extreme situations like murder, rape, and huge thefts.

but in many minor cases it is.
 
He didn’t 🤷

Goodness was never destroyed on the Cross 🤷

Jesus went immediately to Hades, where He spoke to the souls there, then resurrected three days later.

At no point was He, or Goodness destroyed 🤷

Speaking personally, I would rather the woman wasn’t raped, than to know somehow, in some way, Jesus was suffering what she was suffering.

I find that of no comfort what so ever.

It is the Christian perspective that allows for man to do as much evil as he likes, convert, repent, and enjoy eternal bliss 🤷

All I can say is thank goodness our police and judiciary don’t take the same view.

On the contrary, Christians, and the Catholic Church, struggle to explain suffering in any meaningful way. The word ‘‘mystery’’ is gainfully employed 🤷

Sarah x 🙂
Police, all 12, are of this world only. In the next world the wicked will be put away including the 12 policemen who are not of the next world.

Jesus was of the next world and that was his primary concern.
Thus he was willing to suffer and have Mary, his mother, look on while it happened.
“What does it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul?” Jesus.

He suffered for the sinners, not those experiencing suffering in this world. For God makes the rain to fall and the sun to shine on both the good and the bad in this world.
The sinner is to be pitied for the lot they will face in the next world, for everything they do is written in the book of life.

Jesus by his example tells us to forgive. “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”
Jesus by his example tells us to help each other. “He went about doing good.”
Jesus by his example shows what to value. He didn’t have a place to lay his head as the birds do.
No greater love does a man have than to lay down his life for his friends.

We can use suffering to our disadvantage or we can use it the way Jesus used it.

It will also help us to see the wicked in a different light, to be pitied and prayed for.
For that is what we are called to do, to pray and forgive those that need it the most.
For they are facing a terrible terrible consequence and if I were in their shoes, I would want someone to help me before it is too late. I do not envy those who die unrepentent, for they have an unbelievable amount of horror to undergo.

And the suffering others undergo at the hands of others can be used to their disadvantage or their advantage.

To their disadvantage by being resentful and grudgeful which will eat away at their own goodness and spread its effects on those around them. And the unhappiness they experienced just keeps being burned into their memory because they are unforgiving.

To their advantage by attempting to be forgiving and even when the they have enough courage to even pray that they be forgiven. And this damage will make them even stronger and a more loving person which will show in their life and on those around them. By doing this not only will they be blessed for following Jesus but the wicked will be helped as well. And that is what Jesus meant when he said that we should suffer at the hands of the wicked to show them the way. That we should overcome evil by good and not the good be overcome by evil.

Just a few thoughts you have already heard which are true.
 
From this perspective, if the woman didn’t suffer, then no evil would have been committed.
First I would point out that murdering someone, or causing someone pain and suffering, may be independent evils (though taking someone’s life can be construed as the ultimate evil, because it impairs – in a most obvious way – any future enjoyment they will take in living, even more radically than rendering someone a paraplegic would).

As I believe you’ve pointed out, murdering someone painlessly is still murdering (one person takes away your ability to ever walk again; another takes away your ability to ever live again). However, inflicting pain and suffering without murder is still an evil, by the standards of “suffering equals evil” (which exists alongside the standard “death equals evil”). Beating someone to a pulp but leaving him within a hair’s breadth of his life would not be a blameless act, just because it did not result in death.

As for removal of suffering, it would have to entail, in the example of the electrodes:

–that they drugged her or gave her anesthetic first
and
–that the anesthetic was permanent and would not wear off to her awakening in physical agony
and
–that there would be no psychological or emotional trauma involved (e.g., if someone lops off my arm in a way that is painless, I will still be traumatized by the loss of my arm, and am harmed in any number of ways-- anything from impaired functioning, to the emotional pain of disfigurement in my own eyes, as well as through the way I am perceived by others)

Removal of harm would have to entail not only that the woman was spared her life, but that there was no mental or emotional suffering – including after the fact – and that the quality of that life was not impaired. For example, has she been disfigured or handicapped? In that case, she will experience the pain of an impeded life (e.g., a paraplegic cannot feel anything–the pain response is null --yet suffers greatly, emotionally).

But if we could abstract all of their source of suffering and harm from the example you gave (but we cannot) then, indeed, I have doubts that we would find it to be immoral. If humans were invulnerable, and incapable of not only physical – but emotional – pain, our moralities would look very differently. Running over someone with my car wouldn’t be illegal, for example, if it actually tickled them and felt more pleasurable than if I left them alone. If anything, I would probably have people *running *into the path of my vehicle, constantly.

Believers claim these standards came from God, but I submit that – without the signal of physical and emotional pain, and the fear of death or the grief of the death of a loved one – that we as humans never would have figured it out. Even if it is intrinsically wrong, our emerging awareness of morality relied on what we find painful or pleasurable (both physically and emotionally; what we fear and what we desire).

Take the example of suicide – God forbids it. But for what percentage of human beings is it necessary to say “God forbids it?” A small minority. Most of us do not consciously stay alive out of obedience to God; we stay alive because we value our own lives. The prohibition against murder is similar. Most people don’t want to be murdered. “Thou shalt not kill” may come from God, but it was the pragmatic fulfillment of a human desire for self-preservation, within the context of life in society. This would have been the mechanism for the discovery of – or the emerging awareness of – this objective moral evil.
under an atheistic/materialistic perspective, the “being” of the woman is found only in her physical integrity, since mind/emotion are mere epiphenomena reducible to biochemical processes. The evil would come to an end at her death
That’s not at all how our courts look at it. The “being” of the woman is a metaphysical question, albeit a not invalid one. However - pragmatically and experientially – the being of that woman is found in her physical integrity and in her mental and emotional state. This is why lawsuits often sue for “mental anguish” and “pain and suffering,” with the understanding that the latter may contain both a physical and a mental/emotional component.

Also, the very loss of one’s life is considered a great evil. Saying, “now that she’s dead, it doesn’t matter” will not fly, in a court of law. To the contrary, the fact that you’ve destroyed her life – and that her body is no longer usable – is viewed as a great evil. It certainly is by the families of the victim (if the law itself did not prevent them, they may try to harm the perpetrator).
Under a Christian or theistic perspective, the “being” of the woman…could transcend and extend beyond her physical death.
That is the belief, yes, though – in the minds of a grieving Christian parent, for example – it doesn’t tend to replace the pain of saying “my child’s life has been destroyed.” It is a great hope and potential source of consolation, even though the grieving Christian will still likely shed tears, and even take many years to recover from the grief.

For example – I know of someone who lost a child and who was said to have “cried every day for years” (maybe first-thing in the morning, maybe last-thing at night – I don’t know). I honestly do not know whether that woman was a believing Christian, or not. In that sense, the experience of grief is universal.

What the believer certainly wouldn’t say - I hope – is that murdering someone is any less of a crime, just because it is only possible to kill the body, and not the soul.

This kind of thinking, truth be told, got out of hand during the era in which heretics were burned.
 
Did you know some women, when being raped, experienced orgasm 🤷
I’ve read of this; and also that it only compounds the mental and emotional suffering, making healing process more difficult. They feel betrayed by their bodies and ashamed (or guilty, even) on account of their body’s response. This emotional pain even has a ripple effect (for example, a husband in need of counseling, because he has a hard time dealing with the fact that his wife experienced orgasm during rape).

Legally, just by virtue of the fact that the act was not consensual, mental and emotional suffering is automatically presumed (and rightfully so).
 
Did you know some women, when being raped, experienced orgasm 🤷
i find that hard to believe. unless its not really rape- meaning she consented and then enjoyed it.
just like in the movies. 😃
What are we talking about here? My husband not clearing up after dinner? Or him having an affair with his senior accountant who’s a Spanish ex glamor model :eek: 😃

One gets him a loving smack on the head.

The other gets his bits unlovingly removed with a chainsaw.

😃

Sarah x 🙂
i heard that sometimes forgiveness heals marriages even in the case of cheating. 😛
 
i find that hard to believe. unless its not really rape- meaning she consented and then enjoyed it.
just like in the movies. 😃
I find it hard to believe you’d insert a smilie into such a topic.

Perhaps you should do some more research on the subject.

journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/yjcfm/article/S1353-1131(03)00153-6/abstract
i heard that sometimes forgiveness heals marriages even in the case of cheating. 😛
Good for them.

If my husband betrayed my trust in that sense, he’d be out. Gone. Dead to me. Simple as that.

Sarah x 🙂
 
I’ve read of this; and also that it only compounds the mental and emotional suffering, making healing process more difficult. They feel betrayed by their bodies and ashamed (or guilty, even) on account of their body’s response. This emotional pain even has a ripple effect (for example, a husband in need of counseling, because he has a hard time dealing with the fact that his wife experienced orgasm during rape).

Legally, just by virtue of the fact that the act was not consensual, mental and emotional suffering is automatically presumed (and rightfully so).
This is my point. The suffering, emotional turmoil or pain are not the relevant considerations, it is the forcible intrusion and harm caused to the “being” of the woman that is the morally important fact.
 
I find it hard to believe you’d insert a smilie into such a topic.

Perhaps you should do some more research on the subject.

journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/yjcfm/article/S1353-1131(03)00153-6/abstract

The review examines whether unsolicited or non-consensual sexual stimulation of either females or males can lead to unwanted sexual arousal or even to orgasm. The conclusion is that such scenarios can occur and that the induction of arousal and orgasm does not indicate that the subjects consented to the stimulation. A perpetrator’s defence simply built upon the fact that evidence of genital arousal or orgasm proves consent has no intrinsic validity and should be disregarded.

well in the case of males, i think most of us would agree. 😃
but females? i understand their brain is their primary sex organ. how can the brain be stimulated to orgasm if it is suffering?
 
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