Hell is an eternal threat, even for the Saved in Heaven.

[francesco920]

i know about that. i use it myself sometimes when i feel like defending christian trinitarianism. but its still thomas’ confession, not jesus’.

But Jesus confirms that confession in the next line!

 

[francesco920]

The Catholic Church does not teach that the woman is MM. We don’t know who the woman about to be stoned for Adultery is. Some mistakenly believe it is MM. But it really doesn’t matter what her name is.

Why do you keep saying “Roman?” You are excluding a lot of Catholics by saying that.

I agree with you but I don’t want to see this thread become a Catholic vs. Protestant thread.

I think the issues brought up in this thread can be agreed upon by Catholics and Protestants.

 

[AgnosTheist]

So what if it wasn’t Jesus talking? It was one of the Apostles whom Jesus taught talking…where do you think John got this from?

you know, as a part time apologist for christianity, i am well versed with all the tactics of promoting the trinity. My challenge wasnt meant as an attack on the trinity doctrine, but was meant to drive some sense into Brosam. He was being too literal, so i challenged him to find something in the bible that literally & directly states that Jesus is God. There is no such thing. It was merely inferred, a matter of interpretation. And so was the case of the Nephilims. Genesis did not directly say that the Sons of God were angels, but it was inferred.

 

[AgnosTheist]

perhaps it is time that you augment that knowledge by seeking the Church’s interpretation of the Scriptures to which you are giving an increasingly strained reading.

i dont find the church’s interpretation as easily accessible. and the way some documents were written, its like its been authored by a lawyer! too difficult for filipino guy like me whose English is just a second language. Besides, if you guys cant seem to patch things up from the cc documents, how could you expect me! Maybe this discussion would encourage some catholics enough to seek some answers and share them here.

 

[distracted]

Wow I think I heard the exact same phrase coming from a Muslim.

Are you a muslim?

I am a devout Catholic.

Many things in the past have conspired (as it were) to cause me to leave the Church (very un-Christian behavior of some of its members, for one)… and yet, i not only will not, but CANNOT leave. The very Real Presence of Jesus Christ (who is God) is there, physically, in the Church 24/7.
That’s not the only reason, but obviously, it is the most compelling one… No other religion in the world can claim that… No other religion has that kind of power. If people would spend more time in the Real Presence of Christ, the world would be transformed…
And then, in Communion, we Catholics receive Jesus Christ into our very bodies… Awesome…

 

[brosam]

Brosam, Jesus never admitted to being God.

Actually, I gave you several examples. It’s not my fault you don’t want to acknowledge them.

i suppose they are a mess that only their teacher could love. you gotta love your own!

Actually, they’re not a mess at all. They’re good and Godly people who have a deep and abiding love for God and His word. You can go ahead and mock them if you like, but that says a lot more about your childishness than it does about them.

I know that what the bible is saying is different to what you are saying.

Fine. Prove it.

Let us not forget your ignorance in saying that in the bible only pagans were wearing vestments.

Fine. Show me another example.

That proves your ignorance. Truly knowledgable people would not require the exact passage to know what i am talking about.

In other words, you’re just throwing things at the wall hoping something sticks.

Unfortunately, you’re so incapable of making any decent argument that all you can do is to throw out childish insults.

Thank you, but I’ve already got plenty of Roman Catholics around here to do that. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[jimmy85]

Hey Christian! Assuming that christianity is true, have you ever realized that even when you get to heaven you can still go to hell?

You would ask “now why in heaven’s name would I do anything that would offend God?”. Well, why did Lucifer and 1/3 of the heavenly hosts?

In the bible, even good intentions can tick God off. Like when the Ark of the covenant fell on the side of the road and a poor fellow instinctly went and tried to catch it. Kazaaam! struck dead for touching the untouchable.

Think about it. The trinity is so fickle minded.

another agnostic dude that think that by reading the bible he is able to differ from what is literal and what is not without kwnoing anything about it.

Let start with the basics some parts of the bible could be: historical, metaphorical, allegorical, ethical, mythological, or poetic

havent you wondered who wrote the bible? God ?
Well let me tell u it was written by people, and that people could have written lessons there in order for us to understand them , so dotn think that everything is literal.

Let try to fix your erronius judgments
Those angels had free will to chose. People has free will to chose as well. However, the souls that attain heaven cant sin, all their imperfections are eraised.

I advice you this: Quit reading the bible n take a catholic bible course instead, or make an appointment with a good priest that could explain you want you want to know.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Actually, I gave you several examples. It’s not my fault you don’t want to acknowledge them.

i stopped looking after your first 3. none of them was an acknowledgement. rather its all about how you want to see them.

Fine. Prove it.

your first 3 proves it.

1. was about the spirit of god, not about jesus being god himself.
2. was about jesus having his angels. well the dragon has his angels too.
3. was about children coming to jesus

the bible says one thing, you say another. stop decieving yourself.

Unfortunately, you’re so incapable of making any decent argument that all you can do is to throw out childish insults.

Thank you, but I’ve already got plenty of Roman Catholics around here to do that. Welcome to my ignore list.

Hey I only gave you a doze of your own medicine. Remember, I tried making peace with you.

You wont be missed.

 

[AgnosTheist]

another agnostic dude that think that by reading the bible he is able to differ from what is literal and what is not without kwnoing anything about it.

you are assuming too much about me.

Let start with the basics some parts of the bible could be: historical, metaphorical, allegorical, ethical, mythological, or poetic

thats exactly what I tell other people.

However, the souls that attain heaven cant sin, all their imperfections are eraised.

I cannot argue with the idea that Souls become perfect in heaven, but what is your basis for saying that?

 

[jimmy85]

you are assuming too much about me.

thats exactly what I tell other people.

I cannot argue with the idea that Souls become perfect in heaven, but what is your basis for saying that?

The revealed doctrine.
As a matter of fact, you cannot separate the bible from the CC that wrote it, and their doctrines.

 

[contramundum7]

Reason and true (right) religion are absolutely compatible.

Religion is the “science” of morality… (moral law)…

 

[contramundum7]

By faith in Jesus, and by faith alone, a human has chosen God, and is thereby made righteouss.
The point comes here:

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that we are saved by faith in Christ alone. In fact, it says the opposite (james 2:12), that even demons “believe and tremble”. When asked what one should do to be saved, Jesus said to obey the Commandments, and then, when pressed further, he said thatto be perfect, one must give up all his possessions and follow Him… All this is action, not just “faith”… (belief in Him…).

 

[Greg27]

This problem was considered quite early on in the church by thinkers like Origen, who were exposed to ideas about a fall from the beatific vision from Greek philosophy and religion. Plato himself was introduced to an myth, probably Pythagoran or Orphic in origin, which proposed humans and animals had immortal ‘souls’ which were reincarnated in plants and animals. The aim of the practices of meditation and contemplation and mysticism in these Greek religions (which in Pythagoran religion focused on the mystical properties of numbers, geometric figures and musical harmonies) was to free the soul from the body and engage forever in the beatific vision of the eternal forms. The absolute and clear truth of mathematical ideas or concepts seemed to form in the minds of these thinkers the notion of Eternity.

Origen possibly borrowed ideas like these to explain how the primordial fall happened. For Origen, it was possible that a fall involved the incarnation of spirits into material bodies as an act of mercy by God. Humans are ‘souls’ who try to work back to the contemplative vision of the One, and the world was created as a sort of ‘testing ground’ to make souls, or at least restore them to their original home in the beatific vision.

Evagrius, a follower of Origen, used this schema and introduced a theology very like that of Buddhism, expressed in terms of Christian concepts: humans, angels and demons fall and are incarnated into bodies a number of times and the return to the beatific vision occurs through concentrated forms of meditation. Eventually, perhaps after a number of incarnations, all beings will be restored back to intimate union with the Absolute. The main difference here between Evagrius and Hinduism and Buddhism is in Asian religion, incarnation occurs countless times though once a being has been united to the Absolute, it is not possible to ‘fall’ as there is no longer a split between the individual and the Absolute; both are merged with no distinction.

Christian theology however does not recognise the beatific vision means merging so one becomes One in essence with the Absolute. Rather, there is intimate loving union, which is a mystery, but somehow personal identity is not completely lost. Aquinas, Duns Scotus and others tried to explain how it was not possible for someone in the beatific vision to ‘fall’ by misuse of their free will. None of their explanations to me is really coherent and satisfying, but really this is a mystery, and probably not coherently expressible in terms of concepts and logic we can use this side of death.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Reason and true (right) religion are absolutely compatible.

Reason & religion can be compatible. But the point is, what God gave us is the ability to reason. He did not give us a set of instructions (religion). All those religions you see out there, even catholicism, is merely a product of human reason. Some parts of which are already outdated.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that we are saved by faith in Christ alone. In fact, it says the opposite (james 2:12), that even demons “believe and tremble”. When asked what one should do to be saved, Jesus said to obey the Commandments, and then, when pressed further, he said thatto be perfect, one must give up all his possessions and follow Him… All this is action, not just “faith”… (belief in Him…).

Faith itself is an action. It is a gift freely given to ALL. Faith is a response to God’s call.
Genesis 15:6

Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an ***act ***of righteousness.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Faith itself is an action. It is a gift freely given to ALL. Faith is a response to God’s call.
Genesis 15:6

Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an ***act ***of righteousness.

Oops, sorry, I just read francesco’s post about not turning into a Protestant vs. Catholic Thread.

 

[Sixtus]

What makes you think they had already experienced the beatific vision?

WHo knows/ Maybe God tested Angels the same way as we are. Maybe they were waiting for the beatific vision and decided that God was dragging His heals therefore He cannot exist therefore, let us make ourselves God, eat drink feast and make merry [metaphorically speaking] and at the great angelic act of Schism, He appeared.

I speculate of course. I have no biblical foundation for such a view and it is mere fantasy and speculation.

However it happened, I am convinced that the good Angels too had been tested and found worthy.

 

[Keikiolu]

Hey Christian! Assuming that christianity is true, have you ever realized that even when you get to heaven you can still go to hell?

You would ask “now why in heaven’s name would I do anything that would offend God?”. Well, why did Lucifer and 1/3 of the heavenly hosts?

Satan (Lucifer) didn’t GO to heaven,… he was MADE in heaven.

Angels, like man, were created with a free will. Where is the only place that angels can exercise their free will? “Heaven”.

The reason that Satan and the Third were damned was because that was what they chose.

Man’s ability to “choose” ends when he dies. Our “field of work” is in life on earth, not, like the angels, in heaven.

Therefore, your “clever point” is a piece of total nonsense.

In the bible, even good intentions can tick God off. Like when the Ark of the covenant fell on the side of the road and a poor fellow instinctly went and tried to catch it. Kazaaam! struck dead for touching the untouchable.

God keeps His word. If He says, “Don’t touch this thing!”,… don’t touch that thing. The “poor fellow”, I’m sure, was dealt with most mercifully by God.

Since you see death as a “punishment”, and in no way a “freeing”, you can’t possibly see this as God being merciful, though, can you?

Think about it. The trinity is so fickle minded.

You really should either listen to people more learned than yourself in these matters, or get some education in them.

Best to 'ya, you picayune provocateur, you…!

 

[contramundum7]

God gave us is the ability to reason. He did not give us a set of instructions (religion). All those religions you see out there, even catholicism, is merely a product of human reason. Some parts of which are already outdated.

Have you attended daily and Sunday Mass for a year or more? If you listen to the Scripture readings there, you will hear the Word of God… and you will (probably) know that it is the Word of God. Of course, you could persist in your obstinancy… or whatever you want to call it…That is your choice (free will) to do so… I’ve found that once people get a certain notion in their heads, particulrly concerning religion and related things, well, it is difficult to start to believe something different… So i know how you feel, to some extent…
All i know is that the Word of God @ Mass is the the most "logical, reasonable… " well, to tell you the truth, words fail me to adequately describe it… The words I hear all pertain so well to the personal details of what i go through & what others go through… which is one way i “know” its true…
As you know, humans are not all “mind” and not all heart. They are both… and the Word of God appeals to both.
Praying for you. God loves you.

 

[Sixtus]

Have you attended daily and Sunday Mass for a year or more? If you listen to the Scripture readings there, you will hear the Word of God… and you will (probably) know that it is the Word of God. Of course, you could persist in your obstinancy… or whatever you want to call it…That is your choice (free will) to do so… I’ve found that once people get a certain notion in their heads, particulrly concerning religion and related things, well, it is difficult to start to believe something different… So i know how you feel, to some extent…
All i know is that the Word of God @ Mass is the the most "logical, reasonable… " well, to tell you the truth, words fail me to adequately describe it… The words I hear all pertain so well to the personal details of what i go through & what others go through… which is one way i “know” its true…
As you know, humans are not all “mind” and not all heart. They are both… and the Word of God appeals to both.
Praying for you. God loves you.