Hell is not a Choice according to Jesus Parable?

[mikekle]

I wonder what your expectation is from praying, fasting, crying, and begging? The Jews thought that the Messiah would bring material advantages to them. What God gives us is the gift of the Holy Spirit, which makes us capable of overcoming temptations. In fact the live of saints is difficult, for example from Mark 10: 29 Jesus answering, said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time; houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.

Well, typically I just expect God to come into my heart in ANY way he would like, so I can feel his presence (or the holy spirit for that matter), and/or ‘feel’ the added strength he gives to those that seek him out and ask him to come into their lives…Ive not even received this!! My level of being able to deal with temptations has not changed since I was about 15 yrs old, I would quickly notice if it changed too, so apparently God did not give me any extra strength in this regard…I really dont expect anything when I do pray, as I havent seen anything yet, but I guess I really should be expecting something…(shrugs?)

 

[steve_b]

Well, I thought all the people in hell were content being there…? For they were content without God in their life while alive, why would the afterlife be any different for them? That is why Hell is said to be locked from the inside, as those inside will have NO desire to be in heaven, so it doesnt seem like there even will be anyone trying in vain to get into heaven in the way its described above…they would not want to be in a place where God is anyway, so…??

are people in hell content? Nope! Quite the opposite [Luke 13:28](Luke - Introduction - Many have undertaken to - Bible Gateway 13:28&version=RSVCE) , [Matthew 25:41](Matthew - The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah - Bible Gateway 25:41&version=RSVCE) , Matthew 13:42 , Matthew 13:50 , Matthew 18:8 , Matthew 18:9 , Mark 9:48 , Revelation 21:8

C.S. Lewis might have speculated hell is locked from the inside, but that doesn’t mean you should think it’s true. People don’t pass sentence on themselves. Jesus does.

Think about that comment from Lewis for a minute. If the door of hell is locked from the inside, why is Satan and his demons loose roaming the earth devouring souls? Why aren’t they locked in hell now?

 

[mikekle]

are people in hell content? Nope! Quite the opposite [Luke 13:28](Luke - Introduction - Many have undertaken to - Bible Gateway 13:28&version=RSVCE) , [Matthew 25:41](Matthew - The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah - Bible Gateway 25:41&version=RSVCE) , Matthew 13:42 , Matthew 13:50 , Matthew 18:8 , Matthew 18:9 , Mark 9:48 , Revelation 21:8

C.S. Lewis might have speculated hell is locked from the inside, but that doesn’t mean you should think it’s true. People don’t pass sentence on themselves. Jesus does.

Think about that comment from Lewis for a minute. If the door of hell is locked from the inside, why is Satan and his demons loose roaming the earth devouring souls? Why aren’t they locked in hell now?

Well, for some very strange reason, when satan fell, and God banished him out of heaven, this is when Hell was created, BUT God didnt send satan or the demons there…??? instead they fell to the earth…this doesnt make sense to me, but after thinking about it, on earth, they can be close to all the humans, to influence and tempt them, if they were in hell, this would not be possible for them, as you cant come and go from hell.

Im not sure why God even created hell at that moment, if he knew he was wasnt going to send them there at that time.

The way I see it, if people live their entire lives on earth without God in it, then I really doubt the afterlife would any be different for them, they would still not have any desire to be around God, so a place that lacks God would be just fine with them…and the theory that on earth, God is with people if they like it or not, I dont believe that, because that would infringe upon our free will…we can pick and choose whether we want God in our lives or not.

 

[steve_b]

The way I see it, if people live their entire lives on earth without God in it, then I really doubt the afterlife would any be different for them, …

Don’t kid yourself.

 

[TypesAndShadows]

I am one of those people, I have tried numerous times over the course of my life to become closer to God, praying, fasting, breaking down in tears on some occasions, begging God to come into my life, but nothing ever happened…?? NOTHING ever changed either…makes me really wonder whats going on.

However I personally know many who have done the same thing and their lives have changed for the better, they are truly touched and they know it too, this just further confuses me though.

I have NEVER once felt God, felt anything remotely close to him either, even though Ive tried and tried over the course of my life, on the other hand, Ive never felt anything coming from Satan, or similar evil source either, so…??

I sometimes have wondered if it isnt all just in our heads, I dont like to think this way, but after so many years of trying with absolutely no results or anything, it does wear you down and begin to question reality.

I have been fortunate enough to have often felt God’s presence, and sometimes I think that it really just makes my faith less praiseworthy. After all, I have seen and so I believe: happy are those who have not seen, and yet believe.

I don’t know what “the answer” is, although I hope that when we die God will make it all clear to us. Something I have noticed is that it is easier for me to see the spiritual impact of some activities now I am an adult, and especially because I spent some time away from the Church and then came back and really paid attention to the differences. For example, I never ‘feel’ anything much when I go to Confession, other than ‘awkward’ and ‘embarrassed’. And yet when I have Confessed recently and am in a state of Grace, I find it easier to identify and choose the ‘right’ choices: sinful options just don’t look attractive. Spotting these spiritual effects in my life feels a little bit like how, as you grow up and get more experience drinking alcohol, you learn to better identify the effects of intoxication and notice when you are experiencing them: when you have your first few drinks as an inexperienced drinker, you can end up fall-down-drunk without even noticing that you’re feeling any effects from the alcohol at all.

 

[Simca]

The way I see it, if people live their entire lives on earth without God in it, then I really doubt the afterlife would any be different for them, they would still not have any desire to be around God, so a place that lacks God would be just fine with them…and the theory that on earth, God is with people if they like it or not, I dont believe that, because that would infringe upon our free will…we can pick and choose whether we want God in our lives or not.

Hi mikekle,

I think that what people who don’t want God in their lives don’t realize, is that every happiness and all good things come from God, whereas the devil ‘‘seeks to kill and destroy’’. All people, both good and evil, experience happiness and joy in their lives at one time or another. When a person ends up in hell, God’s presence will not be there at all, therefore the total absence of ANY happiness or joy whatsoever. So at that point, the people would at least want the things that had come from God. Therefore, perhaps God himself. And they will then realize everything they gave up.

 

[steve_b]

we can pick and choose whether we want God in our lives or not.

True

And like everything in this life and the next, there are consequences to what we choose here.

At your conception, God gave you an immortal soul. It is meant for heaven. It doesn’t sleep, it doesn’t go into a coma at the death of the body, and it unlike the body doesn’t die. IOW, You are immortal, alive forever, with memory intellect and will fully functional. With that kind of reality, you do NOT want to be anywhere else but heaven.

So I would ask you with all seriousness, ask God for faith. Really mean it when you ask. God WILL give you faith. He wants to save you but He won’t force you [1 Timothy 2:4](1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+2:4&version=RSVCE)

Then after you’ve been given this tremendous gift, a (grace from God), then as Peter teaches don’t abuse it by ignoring it. You need to add to it continuously or you will lose what you’ve been given. Don’t kid yourself, Hell IS real, and people go there.

2 Pet 1: 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Flagstone]

True

And like everything in this life and the next, there are consequences to what we choose here.

At your conception, God gave you an immortal soul. It is meant for heaven. It doesn’t sleep, it doesn’t go into a coma at the death of the body, and it unlike the body doesn’t die. IOW, You are immortal, alive forever, with memory intellect and will fully functional. With that kind of reality, you do NOT want to be anywhere else but heaven.

So I would ask you with all seriousness, ask God for faith. Really mean it when you ask. God WILL give you faith. He wants to save you but He won’t force you [1 Timothy 2:4](1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+2:4&version=RSVCE)

Then after you’ve been given this tremendous gift, a (grace from God), then as Peter teaches don’t abuse it by ignoring it. You need to add to it continuously or you will lose what you’ve been given. Don’t kid yourself, Hell IS real, and people go there.

2 Pet 1: 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

So many strings attached to this “gift”.:hypno:

 

[steve_b]

So many strings attached to this “gift”.:hypno:

Pfffft! shawo a cost benefit analysis

We’re talking about eternity here. This life is sooooo short it’s not even a blink compared to eternity. But this gift is a choice. One is free to reject the terms and conditions of the gift… Don’t forget, Hell is for all eternity too.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Pfffft! shawo a cost benefit analysis

We’re talking about eternity here. This life is sooooo short it’s not even a blink compared to eternity. But this gift is a choice. One is free to reject the terms and conditions of the gift… Don’t forget, Hell is for all eternity too.

In particular if the gift is our very self, the capacity to achieve which is beyond each of our capacities since we do not have the smallest clue as to how to go about creating a “self.”

That being a “self” means abiding with other selves with respect to their safety, security, well-being and their going about the day to day business of existing within the state of truth and authentic goodness, it would seem odd not to expect that some conditions be attached to “the gift.”

In fact, the more significant and consequential the gift, the more such conditions would be attached to it, especially if the recipient has a proven track record of being irresponsible or erratic with even little things.

He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much. If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will entrust to you the true riches? And if you have not been faithful in that which is another’s, who will give you that which is your own? (Luke 16:10-12)

 

[zz912]

Hello, my friend send me this verse:

Luke 13:23-24 and 28, “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many,** I say unto you, many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able …** There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

This means that it will have people going to hell against their will because they will be begging to go to heaven but the owner won’t allow them.
And I always thought that Hell was a free-will choice.

Anyone can help me with that? Thank you!

No, what it means is that many people will not make it to Heaven, even though they think they are. They won’t make it because they want salvation on their terms. Their is a particular teaching or commandment of God that they don’t want to obey. So they follow all the other commands, go to Church, go to Communion every week, but they simply won’t repent of a particular sin or sins, and at their judgment will be sent to hell because of their disobedience.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

Thank you…and in time I may find something that changes my mind…I hope God stays with you.

I just opened this thread and haven’t even finished reading the posts, but I wanted to say how absolutely beautiful this is. It is so so honest and almost prayer-like in itself. I have a friend who is an atheist. He dislikes it but just cannot seem to get over the hurdle of non belief, though he wants to. I will pray for God to reveal Himself to you so that your joy may be complete.

As far as the question is concerned, it may be explained as follows: All men have within themselves a desire for God. It’s innate, built in. However, many choose sinful lives instead.
When one lives a life that to even themselves charitable, ( they tithe, they joyfully attend mass, they pray the rosary, they go on retreat) but holds back a part of themselves, and they are fully aware of it, yet they lie to themselves. ex, “I obey the Lord in all things. God is merciful. If I fornicate and contracept this one time I shall then go to confession, He will forgive”. One time becomes many, the man presumes on God’s mercy. HE lapses into a pattern of grave sin, still believing in the end He will repent and confess…eventually. God loves Him and he believes He shall extend his days. He attends mass and lies now not only to himself but the Spirit. The man dies. He finds himself in hell. “Lord! Let me in! I want to be with you!” he cries. The voice answers, “But you *are *with me, your lord.” It is the voice of Satan. The man has desired heaven, but only on his own terms. Now in hell, he cannot repent, if offered heaven as it really is, he would not choose it. He is a square trying to fit through a circular hole. He has only the need to change his shape to enter, but the shape of his will is fixed.

 

[steve_b]

In particular if the gift is our very self, the capacity to achieve which is beyond each of our capacities since we do not have the smallest clue as to how to go about creating a “self.”

That being a “self” means abiding with other selves with respect to their safety, security, well-being and their going about the day to day business of existing within the state of truth and authentic goodness, it would seem odd not to expect that some conditions be attached to “the gift.”

In fact, the more significant and consequential the gift, the more such conditions would be attached to it, especially if the recipient has a proven track record of being irresponsible or erratic with even little things.

You’ve described the 2nd of the 2 great commandments

1. 
   *]Love God with everything you’ve got (paraphrased)
   *]Love your neighbor as yourself
   
   Luke 10:27

 

[mikekle]

Pfffft! shawo a cost benefit analysis

We’re talking about eternity here. This life is sooooo short it’s not even a blink compared to eternity. But this gift is a choice. One is free to reject the terms and conditions of the gift… Don’t forget, Hell is for all eternity too.

Yes, but we are immortal beings, from the moment we were created…so why would such an extremely short amount of time that we are alive in our earthly bodies, matter that much? If our souls are really who/what we are truly are, then this world should really not make that much difference compared to the larger picture, the afterlife and eternity.

Plus, since we were created immortal from the beginning, thus ALL of the benefits from God would also be eternal and available to us at any time…doesnt make sense for such a being as God to limit his benefits to his creations, when they are immortal in nature…very confusing.

 

[mikekle]

No, what it means is that many people will not make it to Heaven, even though they think they are. They won’t make it because they want salvation on their terms. Their is a particular teaching or commandment of God that they don’t want to obey. So they follow all the other commands, go to Church, go to Communion every week, but they simply won’t repent of a particular sin or sins, and at their judgment will be sent to hell because of their disobedience.

So, what about ALL the laws and commandments they DID obey and follow to a T? Surely this was not a waste of time, but if they go to hell, all this would have been for not…?? LOL

 

[Vico]

So, what about ALL the laws and commandments they DID obey and follow to a T? Surely this was not a waste of time, but if they go to hell, all this would have been for not…?? LOL

There are various degrees of hell and degree of glory in heaven based on the charity during life. The state of contrition and sorrow for sin at the end of one’s life is called* final penitence* and is most important.

Matthew 11:20-22 20 Then he began to reproach the towns where most of his mighty deeds had been done, since they had not repented. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon,a] they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. Luke 18: 9-149 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10 “Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself,

‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ 13
But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ 14
I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”​

 

[zz912]

So, what about ALL the laws and commandments they DID obey and follow to a T? Surely this was not a waste of time, but if they go to hell, all this would have been for not…?? LOL

What about them? They are demanding salvation on THEIR terms. They are demanding that God aquiesce to their will, not His.

As an example, your adult son lives in your home. He follows all the rules of the house you have set, he even does chores around the home, cooks, cleans, does his own laundry. He even mows the grass. But he also decides to have orgy parties of 20 people or so once a month. This naturally abhors you. You demand that he stop immediately. He refuses. He says that he cleans up, takes care of things, does ALL the other things you wish around the house. But he doesn’t want to follow this one rule of yours about not having orgies.

Are you saying that you would continue allowing your son to live in your home having orgies? Of course you wouldn’t. He must abide by all the rules of the home. Otherwise all the other obedience and good works are meaningless.

Same as this example.

 

[steve_b]

Yes, but we are immortal beings, from the moment we were created…so why would such an extremely short amount of time that we are alive in our earthly bodies, matter that much?

Because the ONE, who created us, and went to an aweful lot of effort and pain to see to it His creation, that He made to His image and likeness, free to exercise their will, don’t go to hell. That’s love. And because of that image and likeness, He made us with the capability to reciprocate that love.

If we were NOT made to His image and likeness, meant for perfection and heaven with Him, then there would be no need for Him to go to all that trouble He did to save us for those who want it… If none of it is true, then it’s Like John Lennon sang, (paraphrased) There would be no heaven or hell. We’d just live and die and that’s it. Lennon obviously knows the truth of the matter now.
m:

If our souls are really who/what we are truly are, then this world should really not make that much difference compared to the larger picture, the afterlife and eternity.

Did your teachers never test you on the subject matter you studied? Why do that? What’s it to your teacher if you pass of fail?

Does life not test us on cause and effect, and natural consequences for actions we do every day? This life is a test. What if one goes throuh life ignoring all those lessons we are to learn? John Wayne was said to have made the following comment. Life is tough, it’s worse for one who is stupid. He was a man of few words

Life is not a long test, but still a test. Those who learn the lessons here and do what God prepared in advance for us to do, spend eternity with Him in heaven. Those who don’t, heaven won’t be in their future.
m:

Plus, since we were created immortal from the beginning, thus ALL of the benefits from God would also be eternal and available to us at any time…doesnt make sense for such a being as God to limit his benefits to his creations, when they are immortal in nature…very confusing.

Jesus became like us in everything but sin. What did Jesus say about Himself ?

• Jn 5:19 the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
• Jn 6:37,38 “I have come from heaven not to do my own Will, but the Will of the One who sent Me.”
• Jn 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
• Jn 12:50 whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
• Jn 14:10 The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
• Jn 14:31 I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
• Lk22:42 Not my will but yours be done

Aren’t we asked to imitate Jesus? Obviously obedience to God is a theme here that we need to take seriously.

God made us with free will. We have choices. And those choices have either good or bad consequences. Again do a cost benefit analysis. Make the right choices And follow this law of love Matthew 22:36-40 .

 

[Thorns]

What about them? They are demanding salvation on THEIR terms. They are demanding that God aquiesce to their will, not His.

As an example, your adult son lives in your home. He follows all the rules of the house you have set, he even does chores around the home, cooks, cleans, does his own laundry. He even mows the grass. But he also decides to have orgy parties of 20 people or so once a month. This naturally abhors you. You demand that he stop immediately. He refuses. He says that he cleans up, takes care of things, does ALL the other things you wish around the house. But he doesn’t want to follow this one rule of yours about not having orgies.

Are you saying that you would continue allowing your son to live in your home having orgies? Of course you wouldn’t. He must abide by all the rules of the home. Otherwise all the other obedience and good works are meaningless.

Same as this example.

This is a bad example, because if the adult son refuses and he ends up getting kicked out he can always just get a house or apartment and continue on with the orgy parties.

God doesnt just leave you out of Heaven to continue doing your thing. Rather, you are sent to a place of burning, torture, despair, and being an outlet.for demons to release their hate. In order for your analogy to make sense, the son would have to be executed if he did not wish to stop with his orgies. As immoral as the practice is, threatening such a person like this amounts to slavery.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Folks, I know all the logic about Hell, Heaven, Purgatory… my issue is about this parable.

There seems to be an apparent opposition

They will seek to enter (which means, if they seek to enter they want to go to heaven)
But they will not be able to (Something will impeach they to enter against their will)

My issue is really about the meaning of this parable, thanks.

You left out several verses of the parable in your quote. In the parable these are called evil doers and Christ says he does not know them. When you go to Mass or your church service to “eat and drink” with Christ, but do not really attempt to do the will of the father–i.e. when your professed Christianity doesn’t transform how you live–are you really “seeking” and are you really getting to know Christ? They are seeking to enter without a ticket–those who really want to enter will buy the ticket. I don’t think seek in this sentence means what you are reading it to mean.

The peace of Christ,
Mark