Hell is Real. People Really Go There. Why Modern Man Can’t Understand This…

[Latin]

Can you explain the answer to my question in your own words instead of a series of quotes? I don’t think those quotes are answering my question.

I believe and I trust God; This is above (described in posts: 80, 82, 84) the best way to attain our ultimate perfection and our eternal happiness in God in Heaven as noble and joyful saints.

God bless

 

[Annie]

You wrote:

No one can lose salvation who are predestined to heaven and no one can be saved who are not predestined to Heaven.

Our predestination is up to God, coming totally from His decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will.

If what you say is the case, then why be good? We seem to be destined for Heaven or Hell beforehand, so what difference does it make if we are good or bad?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

…
Yet I looked in the source you recommended

I don’t see where the issue of angels not seeing God is addressed http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

Nor in theological theory How Could Lucifer, an Archangel, Have Rebelled against God? | Catholic Answers

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 118. note that those in statu viae do not have the Beatific Vision.

The angels were subjected to a moral testing. (Sent. Certa. as regards the fallen angels, Sent. communis as regards the good.)

They were first in a state of pilgrimage ( in statu viae ), in which they, through their free co-operation, with grace were required to merit ( in statu termini ) the Beatific Vision of God.

Additionally, p. 117:

God set a supernatural final end for the angels, the immediate vision of God, and endowed them with sanctifying grace in order that they might achieve this end. (Sent. certa.)

From Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma:

ST. PIUS V 1566-1572 Errors of Michael du Bay (BAII) *
[Condemned in the Bull “Ex omnibus afflictionibus,” Oct. 1, 1567]
1001 1. Neither the merits of an angel nor of the first man still in the state of integrity are called grace.
1003 3. Felicity would be the reward, and not grace both for the good angels and for the first man, if he had persevered in that state even to the end of his life.
SourceURL:Denzinger - English translation, older numbering Denzinger - English translation, older numbering

As I was reading that section,

Ott wrote

Pg 118
“the indispensable precondition for the achievement of the immediate vision of God is the possession of sanctifying grace.”

And

“St. Thomas, on the other hand (in his later writings), following St. Augustine. teaches that the angels were created in the state of sanctifying grace;”

And Re: the angels

They were looking at

(statu viae) = state of journeying, pilgrimage, probation
(statu termini)end of that journey

SO

If the angels (all. Of them) as Aquinas and Augustine said, were created with sanctifying grace, then they ALL met the precondition for the immediate vision of God

just not a permanent Beatific Vision which came for them, (statu termini) at end of that journey which some failed and were thrown to hell

 

[Vico]

…
Ott wrote

Pg 118
“the indispensable precondition for the achievement of the immediate vision of God is the possession of sanctifying grace.”

And

“St. Thomas, on the other hand (in his later writings), following St. Augustine. teaches that the angels were created in the state of sanctifying grace;”

And Re: the angels

They were looking at

(statu viae) = state of journeying, pilgrimage, probation
(statu termini)end of that journey

SO

If the angels (all. Of them) as Aquinas and Augustine said, were created with sanctifying grace, then they ALL met the precondition for the immediate vision of God

just not a permanent Beatific Vision which came for them, (statu termini) at end of that journey which some failed and were thrown to hell

Just as Adam and Eve, similarly for the angels, it is not know exactly when they were given the gift of sanctifying grace however if was before any fall, the Beatific Vision is not available until after probation – in the state of heaven. Precondition does not imply only condition. Freedom of the will is also a presupposition of the fall of the angels. There is no fall possible from the Beatific Vision. Fr. John Hardon pointed out in his Catholic Catechism on the Angels:

8. What was the grace which the angels possessed when they were created?
It was sanctifying grace. It was a supernatural gift of God which gave them a share in the divine nature along with a title to inherit the Kingdom of God in the beatific vision. Associated with sanctifying grace, the angels also received the infused virtues and gifts of the Holy Spirit, together with a right to those actual graces which were necessary to preserve and increase the supernatural life.
9. Were the angels not originally created in heaven?
No, the angels had to cooperate with the grace of God to reach heaven.

Note from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 118, on the probation of the angels:

The opinion adopted by many of the Fathers, that the angels were created in a state of glory, is, as regards the bad angels, irreconcilable with the fact of the Fall.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

…
Ott wrote

Pg 118
“the indispensable precondition for the achievement of the immediate vision of God is the possession of sanctifying grace.”

And

“St. Thomas, on the other hand (in his later writings), following St. Augustine. teaches that the angels were created in the state of sanctifying grace;”

And Re: the angels

They were looking at

(statu viae) = state of journeying, pilgrimage, probation
(statu termini)end of that journey

SO

If the angels (all. Of them) as Aquinas and Augustine said, were created with sanctifying grace, then they ALL met the precondition for the immediate vision of God

a vision of God, just not a permanent Beatific Vision YET which is permanent and came for them, (statu termini) at end of that journey which some failed and were thrown to hell

Just as Adam and Eve, similarly for the angels, it is not know exactly when they were given the gift of sanctifying grace however if was before any fall, the Beatific Vision is not available until after probation – in the state of heaven. Precondition does not imply only condition. Freedom of the will is also a presupposition of the fall of the angels. There is no fall possible from the Beatific Vision. Fr. John Hardon pointed out in his Catholic Catechism on the Angels:

8. What was the grace which the angels possessed when they were created?
It was sanctifying grace. It was a supernatural gift of God which gave them a share in the divine nature along with a title to inherit the Kingdom of God in the beatific vision. Associated with sanctifying grace, the angels also received the infused virtues and gifts of the Holy Spirit, together with a right to those actual graces which were necessary to preserve and increase the supernatural life.
9. Were the angels not originally created in heaven?
No, the angels had to cooperate with the grace of God to reach heaven.

Note from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 118, on the probation of the angels:

The opinion adopted by many of the Fathers, that the angels were created in a state of glory, is, as regards the bad angels, irreconcilable with the fact of the Fall.

So far, It’s not clear, that the angels before the fall, did not see God. I’ve asked for the information many times for Church teaching, properly referenced, that clearly says , the angels before the fall, did not see God. I just haven’t seen that …YET,… If it is there I welcome knowing it.

 

[Latin]

You wrote:

Latin:

No one can lose salvation who are predestined to heaven and no one can be saved who are not predestined to Heaven.

Our predestination is up to God, coming totally from His decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will.

If what you say is the case, then why be good? We seem to be destined for Heaven or Hell beforehand, so what difference does it make if we are good or bad?

Thank you Annie for your post and for your questions?

According to Catholic Theology, both of my above statement is correct.

According to Catholic Theology, my above posts 51, 53, 63, 68, 70, 80, 82, 84, are also correct.

I believe our Catholic Church has the revealed fullness of the truth.

I love Catholic Theology, in particular Soteriology.

Officially our Catholic Church not yet teach that God saves everyone even more and more Catholics includes me believe God will saves everyone.

The whole Catholic Church is (1058) praying for the salvation of the entire human race.

In my opinion, we all should believe what we are praying for, the fullfillment of God’s salvific will, which is the salvation of the entire human race.

I have to admit, as a protestant I use to believe, God will burn and torment in hell eternally the large majority of the human race.

Catholic theology opened my mind and eyes to see, we cannot save ourselves, only God can save us and God saves us as it is written, for example:

CCC 298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them. 148
And since God was able to make light shine in darkness by his Word, he can also give the light of faith to those who do not yet know him.

I believe, we all should trust God and His Salvific Will and the salvation of the entire human race.

With faith in God, we all should do our best for the Glory of God.

God bless

 

[Vico]

…
So far, It’s not clear, that the angels before the fall, did not see God. I’ve asked for the information many times for Church teaching, properly referenced, that clearly says , the angels before the fall, did not see God. I just haven’t seen that …YET,… If it is there I welcome knowing it.

You have no statement from the Magisterium that the angels before their test had the Beatific Vision, in fact you have the contrary that they did not have their end, rather, supernatural grace needed to obtain it, but only with a moral testing.

Certain doctrines from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (posted before):

God set a supernatural final end for the angels, the immediate vision of God, and endowed them with sanctifying grace in order that they might achieve this end. (Sent. certa.)

The angels were subjected to a moral testing. (Sent. Certa. as regards the fallen angels, Sent. communis as regards the good.)

 

[Phatmass1]

Michael Voris at the top of his game in this very recent Vortex. Well worth your time!

This dude is such a DB. Referring to Bishop Barron as a False Prophet throughout the video. Serious question for Catholic Answers: Why do you allow videos by this self righteous clown to be posted all throughout your site? I would never in a million years show any of these videos to non Catholic friends I was trying to bring into the Church. This guy is cringe worthy and honestly makes me think of finding a new church. This is what people are talking about when they say they HATE religion. Guys like this.

 

[Annie]

In my opinion, we all should believe what we are praying for, the fullfillment of God’s salvific will, which is the salvation of the entire human race.

If each and every one of us is saved, then what is the difference between being holy and being completely selfish and decadent?

 

[mythbuster1]

You are presuming that God gives perseverance to everyone, and that God would be unjust not to give the gift of perseverance. That is a damnable heresy. If you treat the lesser gifts with contempt, why should God give you greater gifts? The servant who buried his Master’s talent was condemned because he did not bear fruit. Verily, it is only by grace that there is a Second Coming to look forward to, and it is only by grace that a happy death can deliver us from this Valley of Tears, for in itself, even perfect obedience to the Law only merits remaining alive. If God would have been perfectly just to let Adam live forever in Eden had he not sinned, yet never attain to the beatific vision, how can you accuse God of injustice if He does not grant final perseverance to those who spurned His grace by mortal sin?

 

[mythbuster1]

Just one quibble, while most Christians will die, there will be some who survive to welcome the Lord back from Heaven, as it is written, “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.” Regardless, whether we live to see the Second Coming or die before then, there is no escaping Judgment.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

…
So far, It’s not clear, that the angels before the fall, did not see God. I’ve asked for the information many times for Church teaching, properly referenced, that clearly says , the angels before the fall, did not see God. I just haven’t seen that …YET,… If it is there I welcome knowing it.

You have no statement from the Magisterium that the angels before their test had the Beatific Vision, in fact you have the contrary that they did not have their end, rather, supernatural grace needed to obtain it, but only with a moral testing.

All I’m saying , if one supports the angels before the fall could or could NOT see God, and it looks like it’s a discussion point among theologians, that hasn’t been decided on by the Church, then so be it. If there has been a decision by the Church I’d like to see it

Vico:

Certain doctrines from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (posted before):

God set a supernatural final end for the angels, the immediate vision of God, and endowed them with sanctifying grace in order that they might achieve this end. (Sent. certa.)

The angels were subjected to a moral testing. (Sent. Certa. as regards the fallen angels, Sent. communis as regards the good.)

I read that. As you know in that section from Ott, there was disagreement on whether the Angels got sanctifying grace to begin with. Augustine and Aquinas disagreed with each other. Then Aquinas came to Augustines view that the angels got sanctifying grace from the beginning.

The Beatific Vision is presented as a permanent gift AFTER one is judged. The way it is written, it doesn’t say those bad angels didn’t see God in any way. And since angels are pure spirits, they don’t have attributes we have. No eyes to see etc. We know anything they might have had in their favor ended when they were throw down to hell

I’m getting a message to move off this subject.

 

[mythbuster1]

Where did you get the idea that the damned stop sinning upon death? Do you not know that the Scriptures speak of people who know they are suffering God’s Wrath, yet not only do they not repent, but “they blasphemed God because of their pains?” I have no doubt that God would save even a sinner in Hell who repented, but none will. Their perversion causes them to hate God for being Just. Thus, even were God to open the Gates of Heaven to them, they would refuse to enter, because the terror and torment of being in God’s Presence would surpass even the pains of Hell on account of their hatred of God and their evil desires.

 

[Vico]

…
I’m getting a message to move off this subject.

What is the source of the message?

For the time of the elevation into the state of grace, you may have missed the Church teaching: “The Roman Catechism (I 2, I7) follows the teaching of St. Augustine ad St. Thomas in this matter.” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

The angels are not in the heaven or hell state until after a choice is made. The angels enjoy the Beatific Vision in heaven only, because it is the final goal, which has not been achieved before it is final. One with the Beatific Vision will always choose not to sin, which is not the same case as having sanctifying grace without the Beatific Vision.

 

[Maximus1]

By now as a Catholic you should recognise that judgement is a mystery. That there is no precise path or threshold and trying to discern one is like trying to sift strands of smoke.
There is plenty written about right living. And it seems clear to me that dispensing mercy is the best path for everyone.
You might want to consider leaving your fate in God’s hands and simply love your neighbor. Truth is ones fixation is little more than the ego trying to control what is in God’s hands.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

…
I’m getting a message to move off this subject.

What is the source of the message?

That blue message in the window to the right that pops up before writing or sending a post

 

[Latin]

He so thirsts for our free “yes”, that rather than force us by grace he goes through death.

I agree with you goout, God never force us by His graces, (2022) His initiative in the work of grace only precedes, prepares, and elicits our free response . – We are all freely respond, no force involved.
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).

As we see above again, His supernatural intervention in the faculties of our souls, precedes the FREE ACT of our wills, without any force.

.
THE WAY GOD CALLS US TO HEAVEN WITHOUT FORCING US TO SAY “YES” TO HIS CALL

Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being … – There is no force involved.
.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."
.
(Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3). God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. …

St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

.
The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect.

(1) Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, with all the different measures of grace and the various degrees of happiness, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.
.
John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the father who sent Me draws him
.
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
.
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Acts 13:48; as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

.
The question IS: Is it a possibility that anyone in any stages rejects God’s graces and end up in hell whom God has chosen and decided to save?

Thank you for your or others answer in advance.

At the answer please keep in mind:
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
.
God bless

 

[John10]

I think the problem is not so much with understanding, but rather about people wanting to change their lives. Being a faithful Christian (and Catholic) is not easy, and it makes many uncomfortable.

God challenges us in many ways.

 

[Inquiry]

I believe I’ve said the same thing elsewhere in the thread. My point was that the description of Hell as a punishment for our earthly sins seems disproportionate, but it fits as a consequence for the eternal choice to be separate from God. You can call that separation a continual and eternal sin, and you would be right, but it is a strange way to talk of it because the sin and the consequence for it are the same thing. You can also call it a punishment, as many do, but that is also strange because the punishment is inflicted by the sinner themselves.

Punishement and consequence are not mutually exclusive, but one carries some often unintended meaning into the conversation. That’s why I choose to use the word ‘consequence’.

 

[Inquiry]

.
The question IS: Is it a possibility that anyone in any stages rejects God’s graces and end up in hell whom God has chosen and decided to save?

Thank you for your or others answer in advance.

Your quotes certainly show a God who wants to save everyone, but they do not preclude that his plans include our free will. Since it is not an obstacle he has to work around but an element he incorporated into his design we cannot consider that he has made himself dependent on it.