Hell is Real. People Really Go There. Why Modern Man Can’t Understand This…

[Inquiry]

Pick one. Hell is either a punishment by the harshest Judge imaginable. Or, we choose absence from the Good with our free will.

Ordinarily I’d claim this is a false dichotomy, but Hell is the latter one.

It’s actually the latter one definitionally. Remember, deliberate self exclusion from communion with God is Hell.

 

[Aquinas11]

Let me know what you think of this quote that supports your two-fold end understanding of Aquinas:

Well its not “my understanding” of Aquinas, since Aquinas uses the latin word “duplex” which translates as “two-fold”. Translations aren’t opinions.

To be fair to De Lubac, he got it half right - that the two ends are related. Many others mistranslated “duplex” as “two” which infers they’re distinct and unrelated. What he got wrong is that they’re one and the same. I can at least see where De Lubac made an honest error and misinterpreted duplex as one end, since something that is two-folded (a door hinge) is one entity yet has two hinged and distinct parts.

Rev Garrigou-Lagrange referred (not kindly) to the theologians of the Ressourcement as engaged in a nouvelle theologie . And Garrigou (whom I have read) strikes me as the quintessential Thomistic purist. And I suppose this internal conflict still persists within the Catholic Church to this day. But there can be no denying the enormous influence all those men I alluded to above had on late 20th century Catholic thought—much more than Thomistic purists had.

Yes that’s why I said that the nouvelle theologie are responsible for so many Catholics today who don’t believe in sin, don’t believe in hell, don’t believe need to be baptized to be saved, are reason we have paganism (Amazon Synod) and false idol worship in the Church, etc. All of this is consistent with a message that everything you do fulfills your supernatural end, which is false and built on the above translation error of Aquinas.

But all this discussion can get us lost in the recent-history weeds. If you have a different pov on the 20th century theological history, it doesn’t matter to me.

Again, see above, translation of “duplex” is not an opinion or pov, its a fact.

Let’s stick with beatitude—it hardly matters whether there is a two-fold understanding here, does it? In both cases, happiness is the goal, whether perfect (beatific vision) or imperfect—man’s happiness remains his final end. . . .

If everything I do fulfills my supernatural end (as De Lubac claims) then it won’t matter to Catholics whether they go to a yoga class or go to mass on Sunday - both fulfill their supernatural end. It won’t matter what they do - everything fulfills their supernatural end. There is no such thing as sin. So it matters a lot. If people get the false impression from De Lubac that there is no such thing as sin, then Catholics will do what they’re doing now - stop believing in transubstantiation, stop going to Mass, stop going to confession, stop believing in hell, stop condemning Idol Worship, etc etc all to their eternal detriment since its all based on a false interpretation of Aquinas.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning!

so many Catholics today who don’t believe in sin

Many Catholics don’t believe in sin? I’m wondering from where that observation comes.

don’t believe in hell

“hell” has been a controversial concept since the first century, in my reading. Are you seeing that there might be a problem with certain ways of seeing “hell”?

don’t believe need to be baptized to be saved

Maybe they just don’t understand baptism? There is a “baptism by desire”.

If a person has perfect awareness, they do not reject baptism.

 

[JimG]

Nothing imperfect can enter heaven. For someone with sinful inclinations remaining, being in the presence of God would be painful. Perhaps that is what purgatory is all about. Someone whose will is turned against God could simply not live in heaven.

 

[vz71]

Perhaps that is what purgatory is all about. Someone whose will is turned against God could simply not live in heaven

Purgatory is temporary.
If someone cannot live in heaven, there will be no where else to go but hell.

 

[JimG]

Yes, purgatory is temporary; because the purifying presence of God removes all attachment to sin and make one fit for heaven.

It seems to me that for one who rejects God, heaven would be hell.

 

[JanR]

Is there reason to fear that Purgatory may be sparsely populated, and Heaven even less populated?

Or, looking at these two “places” from the perspective of experiences, very few souls will be experiencing them?

Can anyone be absolutely certain of that?

 

[Latin]

Which is what I was getting at. It has nothing to do with how much sin someone does and everything to do with whether their final choice is sin or God. We are saying the same thing from different angles: as a punishment for how much sin someone has done Hell doesn’t make sense. As a consequence of separation from God by our own free choice, it makes a great deal of sense.

I agree, hell cannot be the punishment for sin for many reasons.

But, and it is a big but, how can a person chose hell instead of heaven?

Only an intellectually disabled person or an un-regenerated person (count as spiritually disabled) would chose hell instead of heaven.

How could a Just and loving God allow a disabled person go to hell?

God bless

 

[po18guy]

We have heard a lot about “Fake news” - and indeed we have all seen it. But, more troubling is fake news regarding hell…

 

[Latin]

In my opinion Scripture should be understand in context and in the light of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

The Scripture is like a coded message/ enigma, can be understand by God’s revelation.

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In the Book of Jonah God also provided us His key to understand His enigma/ coded message.

Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.

For the reason to pay attention God promised distraction and hell to all Ninevites.
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Despite of all threats and promises of distractions and hell, God provided His Universal Salvation and saved all Ninevites:

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and also many animals?
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God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and God provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.

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The same principle applies to the warnings and promises of hell in the New Testament.

When we reading the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings.

One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and God saves everyone (Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.).

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Before Vatican II our theologians mostly focused on the line teaches only a few people saved.
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At Vatican II and after our theologians started to focus on the line which teaches God saves everyone.
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This is above exactly the whole Catholic Church is praying for (1058), we all should believe we are praying for which is God to save all of us, I believe what we are praying for, I also believe God answers our prayers and He saves all of us.

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza

The vocation to eternal life is supernatural, it surpasses the powers of human intellect and will, he must be predestined to that end by God.

God must direct us to this end by His power and grace.

Thus, predestination is a certain and infallible truth, revealed by Scripture and taught by the Catholic Church.
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As we see above, no one can be saved without predestined to heaven, there is no other way.
God’s love and justice demands the fulfilment of 1058 by saving the entire human race.

No one can lose salvation who are predestined to heaven and no one can be saved who are not predestined to Heaven.

Our predestination is up to God, coming totally from His decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will.
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God bless

 

[Annie]

No one can lose salvation who are predestined to heaven and no one can be saved who are not predestined to Heaven.

So… why be good? Why go to Mass and Confession, why avoid sin, etc, if everyone goes to Heaven?

And what of free will? How do we have free will to reject God if we all go to Heaven anyway?

And how much is what Salza writes supported by the Church?

On the other hand, your post claims this on the basis of what happened in Ninevah, that God said Ninevah would be destroyed because of the actions of the inhabitants.

Jonah told them this, and they repented of and changed their actions, thus averting their destruction.

It did not work out that way for Sodom or for Gomorrah.

 

[Latin]

So… why be good? Why go to Mass and Confession, why avoid sin, etc, if everyone goes to Heaven?

FOR EXAMPLE
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.“171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, ( De fide ).

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St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I. (1) On human interaction with grace : Every good work, even good will, is the work of God:
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."

And what of free will?

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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As you see above Annie, God has not given us a libertarian free will.
We have aided free will, we freely will what God wills us to will and to perform.

How do we have free will to reject God if we all go to Heaven anyway?

CCCS 1990-1991; “Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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No one rejects God’s call to eternal life in Heaven.
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God bless

 

[Inquiry]

I agree, hell cannot be the punishment for sin for many reasons.

But, and it is a big but, how can a person chose hell instead of heaven?

You’ve never seen anyone choose something they know is bad for them and will cause them serious problems? Lots of people follow a path of self destruction.

Let me put it another way. Everyone who commits a mortal sin is making the exact same kind of choice between Heaven and Hell. They are choosing Hell, not as a possible future consequence, but right in the moment. They are saying “Not Thy will, Lord, but mine.” Plenty of people make that choice every day, so we should not act like it is an alien idea.

 

[vz71]

But, and it is a big but, how can a person chose hell instead of heaven?

Because heaven is about God, not self.
People are selfish, and choose their own wants and desires over God every day.

 

[vz71]

Only an intellectually disabled person or an un-regenerated person (count as spiritually disabled) would chose hell instead of heaven.

This is simply untrue.
We can see this every day. People sin all the time, and each one is an example of choosing selfish desires over God.

 

[Annie]

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, ( De fide ).

But the Church teaches that we must cooperate with God’s grace, right?

As you see above Annie, God has not given us a libertarian free will.
We have aided free will, we freely will what God wills us to will and to perform

Either you are saying that God wills our bad acts or that when we commit a bad act, we are using our free will to do so.

What I said was: how do we have free will to reject God? That is a bad act!!

God sends us grace to perform good acts; we must cooperate with that grace. Whether or not to do so is our free will.

 

[goout]

No one rejects God’s call to eternal life in Heaven.
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God bless

The corpus on your crucifix testifies against your hyper-estimation of God’s grace. Christ is the utterly rejected and scorned one. And this after telling us point blank “the kingdom of God is already among you”.

He so thirsts for our free “yes”, that rather than force us by grace he goes through death. Faith is both grace and human act. Faith is incarnational, not a one sided divine dictum.

 

[Vico]

…

But the Church teaches that we must cooperate with God’s grace, right?

…

God sends us grace to perform good acts; we must cooperate with that grace. Whether or not to do so is our free will.

Yes, cooperation is the partial cause of salvation. Catholic Encyclopedia on predestination explains:

Owing to the infallible decisions laid down by the Church, every orthodox theory on predestination and reprobation must keep within the limits marked out by the following theses:

a) At least in the order of execution in time (in ordine executionis) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness;
b) hell cannot even in the order of intention (in ordine intentionis) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;
c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[Annie]

None of what you say provides evidence that Hell is or will be empty, which was what I was responding to in Latin’s post.

However, I like those criteria you so kindly shared Thank you!

 

[Vico]

None of what you say provides evidence that Hell is or will be empty, which was what I was responding to in Latin’s post.

However, I like those criteria you so kindly shared Thank you!

You are welcome.

I was only addressing cooperation with grace.