Hell

[Aloysium]

Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
. . . So there really is a place and souls under the earth…

Under the earth, as heaven is above the earth. “Under” is not the same as “in”, if that is what you are suggesting it means.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I thought that the people under the Earth who bend the knee at the name of Jesus are in purgatory. Is this true?

AS for under the Earth–look at it this way–Jesus is beneath the accidents of bread and wine in the Eucharist.

Those UNDER the Earth need not be physically UNDER the Earth’s surface but only substantially under it.

In other words though Hell and purgatory and heaven are realities they shouldn’t be thought of as being up or down LITERALLY.

Is this possible?

 

[bedan_elite]

I thought that the people under the Earth who bend the knee at the name of Jesus are in purgatory. Is this true?

AS for under the Earth–look at it this way–Jesus is beneath the accidents of bread and wine in the Eucharist.

Those UNDER the Earth need not be physically UNDER the Earth’s surface but only substantially under it.

In other words though Hell and purgatory and heaven are realities they shouldn’t be thought of as being up or down LITERALLY.

Is this possible?

My point is purgatory & hell are physical places and that it is possible that it could be in the earth’s core. I am speculating folks… One thing for sure, none of us want to be there

 

[MacQ]

OK…you can pile on me for this, but there’s something a little “off” to me about a bunch of Catholics seizing on a word in scripture (or even one passage) as a concrete sign about something like a physical location for purgatory (which we really don’t profess to know much about).

Seems like grasping to know something we should leave as mystery.

I may be wrong (so call me out)…I fully admit that I have developed a red flag (or maybe a hot button) for that sort of thing, having recently read so many comments on another site by people who claim to be very fundamental Christians (they don’t identify their sects). They cut and paste alot of scripture to justify their hatred of catholics, Jews, gays and muslims among others.
They use St. Paul alot.
They are very LITERAL.

These arguments strike me as something similar…

 

[Amandil]

Philippians 2:6-11
New International Version (NIV)

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature** of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth**,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Hi Amandil : This was the 2nd reading last Sunday. So there really is a place and souls under the earth…

“Heaven, earth, and under the earth” are the three principle realms in the world view of ancient Israel. (Exd 20:4).

The point is that homage for Christ will come from all creation. Not that hell exists a few miles below your feet.

 

[bedan_elite]

Hi MacQ : I believe hell & purgatory is a physical place. I’ve read a few books about it as revealed to some saints by the actual souls who were suffering in those places. I can’t remember who the saints were. Do you believe heaven is a physical place too? I do because I believe in the Assumption and the Ascension of our Lord. I think even Elijah went up to heaven in his mortal body. I don’t think it’s wrong to believe that those places are real and I don’t think it’s a heretical belief (but correct me if I’m wrong, mention the dogma, catechism etc and I will change my position).

 

[MacQ]

Hi MacQ : I believe hell & purgatory is a physical place. I’ve read a few books about it as revealed to some saints by the actual souls who were suffering in those places. I can’t remember who the saints were. Do you believe heaven is a physical place too? I do because I believe in the Assumption and the Ascension of our Lord. I think even Elijah went up to heaven in his mortal body. I don’t think it’s wrong to believe that those places are real and I don’t think it’s a heretical belief (but correct me if I’m wrong, mention the dogma, catechism etc and I will change my position).

I don’t have a problem with them being “places”, while acknowledging that’s as good a conception as we can have, given the limits of our human understanding of planes of existence.
I think what got me were the parts about specific locations such “places” might be …underground, core of the earth etc. (Talk about limited concepts!). And attempting to use scripture words to substantiate it.

It’s more that I guess I am comfortable with mystery…more so that such things are unknowable and that delving overmuch into unknowables seems at worst like a slippery slope of some kind. At best it’s angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin useless.
I’m happy to leave it alone until God wants me to know.

I probably shouldn’t have raised it at all.

 

[Amandil]

I have a problem with hell being a “place” because we’re comparing eternal concepts with our earthly material existence.

Let’s look at it this way. We know that our earthly existence is not the fullness of the existence that God intended for us.

The perfection of existence, the perfection of Reality, is God, because He is perfect Being sustained eternally without limit.

Therefore heaven must also be that Being which is the perfection of existence and the fullest Reality.

If evil is the utter absence of perfect goodness, love, and beauty, then hell must be the absolute and utter rejection and absence of Reality itself.

That is why, IMO, that hell cannot be a “place” in the sense that the city of St. Louis is a place or even that “place” 10 miles in the earth’s crust below the city of St. Louis is a “place”.

Hell necessarily has to be less real than anything that we find in this earthly existence.

 

[MacQ]

I have a problem with hell being a “place” because we’re comparing eternal concepts with our earthly material existence.

Let’s look at it this way. We know that our earthly existence is not the fullness of the existence that God intended for us.

The perfection of existence, the perfection of Reality, is God, because He is perfect Being sustained eternally without limit.

Therefore heaven must also be that Being which is the perfection of existence and the fullest Reality.

If evil is the utter absence of perfect goodness, love, and beauty, then hell must be the absolute and utter rejection and absence of Reality itself.

That is why, IMO, that hell cannot be a “place” in the sense that the city of St. Louis is a place or even that “place” 10 miles in the earth’s crust below the city of St. Louis is a “place”.

Hell necessarily has to be less real than anything that we find in this earthly existence.

We apparently share some of the same notions about Hell (or Heaven) as a physical place with a location (below earth etc).
I’m tripping over the term “Reality” in your explanation however…do you mean it synonymous with “existence” (thus Hell would be to not exist at all?)

 

[Amandil]

We apparently share some of the same notions about Hell (or Heaven) as a physical place with a location (below earth etc).

Perhaps. It may be that this whole thing that we know if as “reality”(material existence) is just a veil(at this point I’m always reminded of the scene from the movie “Constantine”)with eternity just beyond it.

But even then I tend to think not because even that “hell” seems to me to be too “real” than what hell ought to be.

I’m tripping over the term “Reality” in your explanation however…do you mean it synonymous with “existence” (thus Hell would be to not exist at all?)

It’s ok, I’m not even truly sure of it myself. When I capitalize Reality I obviously mean God and heaven which is His kingdom.

But obviously His kingdom extends beyond heaven to our existence here in this reality as well as to hell.

This is where we get into terms that I really am less comfortable with because they are more relative than objective.

The solar system I think is a good analogy, although imperfect, in that Reality would be like light from the sun (or Son). The closer to the light, the more “real” reality is.

Conversely the farther away from the light, the less real reality is.

The same Light governs all Reality, but you necessarily have those who prefer darkness to Light.

They call darkness “light”, and they call the Light “darkness”. Their “reality” relative to Reality is flipped upside-down.

What does all that mean in regards to hell being a “place”? I really don’t know. Reality itself as a term seems at once to be solid and objective and at the same time relative and fluid and subjective.

I hope I clarified it for your satisfaction though.

 

[MacQ]

Perhaps. It may be that this whole thing that we know if as “reality”(material existence) is just a veil(at this point I’m always reminded of the scene from the movie “Constantine”)with eternity just beyond it.

But even then I tend to think not because even that “hell” seems to me to be too “real” than what hell ought to be.

It’s ok, I’m not even truly sure of it myself. When I capitalize Reality I obviously mean God and heaven which is His kingdom.

But obviously His kingdom extends beyond heaven to our existence here in this reality as well as to hell.

This is where we get into terms that I really am less comfortable with because they are more relative than objective.

The solar system I think is a good analogy, although imperfect, in that Reality would be like light from the sun (or Son). The closer to the light, the more “real” reality is.

Conversely the farther away from the light, the less real reality is.

The same Light governs all Reality, but you necessarily have those who prefer darkness to Light.

They call darkness “light”, and they call the Light “darkness”. Their “reality” relative to Reality is flipped upside-down.

What does all that mean in regards to hell being a “place”? I really don’t know. Reality itself as a term seems at once to be solid and objective and at the same time relative and fluid and subjective.

I hope I clarified it for your satisfaction though.

Well, I must admit, I didn’t understand that you intended different meanings for reality, depending on whether capitalized…or that you intended different meanings for either kind of “reality” than the conventional one.
It’s ok…I guess we would agree that our sense of the world (our reality) is limited, and that surely it doesn’t grasp the fullness of God’s.
In short, if we’re not amazed and surprised, that would surprise me.
Like I said earlier…I’m comfortable with that, and happy for it to be unfolded to me when the time comes.

 

[BootCampJr]

If its not Heaven, does it really matter what its called?

 

[Amandil]

Well, I must admit, I didn’t understand that you intended different meanings for reality, depending on whether capitalized…or that you intended different meanings for either kind of “reality” than the conventional one.

Again I apologize for the ambiguity.

It’s ok…I guess we would agree that our sense of the world (our reality) is limited, and that surely it doesn’t grasp the fullness of God’s.

I think that aided by grace that it surely can.

In short, if we’re not amazed and surprised, that would surprise me.
Like I said earlier…I’m comfortable with that, and happy for it to be unfolded to me when the time comes.

I completely agree. Jesus said that He came that we may have life, and have it more abundantly. Compared to this reality then that life, that Reality, must be by comparison amazing.