Hell

[Tom_Baum]

There are no options for anyone going to Hell. They are there FOREVER.
You cannot get any clearer than this infallible teaching of the Church on Hell.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of Hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of Hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of Hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

By the way you did not previously state God wanted everyone to be saved. YOU are the one who stated “all are ultimately saved” and that is a heresy.

I “did not previously state God wanted everyone to be saved”, I stated “that it is God’s Will that ALL are saved” and I may not have mentioned it, even tho I think that I did, but it was in a letter from Paul to Timothy which I previously printed, I think on this posting and even tho you most likely already know it, I reprint it here: “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

So even tho I did not state that God wanted everyone to be saved, it seems that if it is His Will than it must by definition be something that God wanted.

Maybe you can take it up with Paul when you meet him.

Jesus said that we should pray for “God’s Will to be done” in the Lord’s Prayer (Our Father).

I repeat the two questions that I asked in the post that you responded to:

"Has the Church ever definitely said that someone is in the hell that you think of as hell?

If the Church hasn’t then the Church has left that “option”, so to speak, open, wouldn’t you say?"

I stake absolutely everything on God having a Plan worth having and calling it the Good News.

God’s Plan, the Good News, is still unfolding before our very eyes even tho the pivotal point occurred quite a while ago.

Like I have said many times, I did not choose myself for this “job”, God chose me.

I think of this “job” not as my “job” but as Our “job”, God and me and I am trusting that somehow God will see me thru.

 

[Tom_Baum]

At the end of time Purgatory will not exist. Only Hell and Heaven are forever. Those in Purgatory will go to Heaven.
Everyone in Hell will remain there forever. They will never be united with God. To say “all are ultimately saved” is heresy. Any Catholic who believes in Universalism is in a state of mortal sin by rejecting an infallible Church teaching and this carries the penalty of automatic excommunication.

Canon Law:

Can. 1364 §1 An apostate from the faith,** a heretic** or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication, without prejudice to the provision of Can. 194 §1, n. 2; a cleric, moreover, may be punished with the penalties mentioned in Can. 1336 §1, nn. 1, 2 and 3.

You wrote, “Hell and Heaven are forever”, what about the “new heavens and the new earth”?

You also wrote, “At the end of time”.

Something to think about: Jesus said, “My Father has been busy even until now”, it is written, “On the seventh day God completed the work he had been doing; he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken. God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation.”

I don’t know and I don’t think that anyone knows if God is going to “uncreate” time since time is part of God’s creation.

 

[thistle]

You wrote, “Hell and Heaven are forever”, what about the “new heavens and the new earth”?

You also wrote, “At the end of time”.

Something to think about: Jesus said, “My Father has been busy even until now”, it is written, “On the seventh day God completed the work he had been doing; he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken. God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation.”

I don’t know and I don’t think that anyone knows if God is going to “uncreate” time since time is part of God’s creation.

You are still evading my question. Do you believe the infallible teaching of the Church which has the full authority of God behind it that Hell IS forever and that those in Hell are there forever to be eternally separated from God.
Do you believe the Church teaching or not??

By the way on your repeated comments about being chosen by God in a dream, personally I think that is nonsense and you probably need help.
God would never choose anyone to speak out against Church teachings. Only Satan would do that!

 

[McCartney]

Didn’t Mary ask the children to pray for those in hell?

You tried to say that Mary asked for prayers for those in hell!!

Would that be ““Save us from the fires of hell””, as you wrote, as opposed to keep us from the fires of hell?

When I said “Save us from the fires of hell”", you said, as opposed to “keep us from the fires of hell?”.

Here is a prayer not just for you but for ALL:

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins.
Save us from the fires of hell.
Lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.

Now you actually quote “Save us from the fires of hell” even though you contradicted my statement earlier.

All Catholics know this prayer. If you didn’t know it earlier but now seem to know it, that makes me wonder if you are a Catholic.

 

[bedan_elite]

I’ll take your word that this is a “powerful prayer” since I, at the moment, do not have a clue at what it even says.

I would guess that it is Latin and I am sure that God knows Latin just as I am sure that God knows that I don’t know Latin.

I happen to believe that the “thoughts” that words convey are more meaningful than the pretty sounds that might come from the words, that is one of the reasons that I prefer the Mass in the vernacular.

Do you realize that when God became One of us, that He, Jesus, spoke to people in their vernacular?

Here is a prayer not just for you but for ALL:

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins.
Save us from the fires of hell.
Lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.

Thanks Tom. I always say the prayer you mentioned everytime…Everytime I hear of fatalities, calamities etc in the news. Eveytime I see accidents on the roads. After all the mysteries of the rosary but I’m guilty of not saying the rosary often. Everytime… I can’t even count how many times in a day I say that prayer…Let me translate to you in english the prayer to St. Benedict. here goes…
The cross of holy Father Benedict
May the holy cross be my light
Let the dragon not be my guide
Begone Satan
Never suggest vain things to me
What you offer me is evil
Drink the poison yourself.
Peace brother

 

[Tom_Baum]

You are still evading my question. Do you believe the infallible teaching of the Church which has the full authority of God behind it that Hell IS forever and that those in Hell are there forever to be eternally separated from God.
Do you believe the Church teaching or not??

By the way on your repeated comments about being chosen by God in a dream, personally I think that is nonsense and you probably need help.
God would never choose anyone to speak out against Church teachings. Only Satan would do that!

I believe that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, is for ALL to be, ultimately, with God.

As I said, I do not know the details but I do not need to know the details.

I also believe that Jesus went to hell and that hell is custom built by its occupant and one of the reasons that I believe that Jesus went to hell is that I do not believe that I have been thru worse than Jesus, actually, I believe that Jesus has been thru worse than me in that Jesus went to everyone’s hell.

As far as “By the way on your repeated comments about being chosen by God in a dream, personally I think that is nonsense and you probably need help.”, you are entitled to your opinion but as you probably know, it is written that some of Jesus’s contemporaries thought that He needed help also.

Either I “need help”, as you put it, or I am stating a simple fact, God chooses whomever God chooses for whatever God chooses someone for.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You tried to say that Mary asked for prayers for those in hell!!.

I asked a question, what exactly did Mary say?

When I said “Save us from the fires of hell”", you said, as opposed to “keep us from the fires of hell?”.

Save us from the fires of hell can mean more than one thing, one of which is to “keep us from the fires of hell”, that is what I was pointing out.

Now you actually quote “Save us from the fires of hell” even though you contradicted my statement earlier.

I did not “contradict” what you wrote, as I pointed out above, I wrote something to think about.

All Catholics know this prayer. If you didn’t know it earlier but now seem to know it, that makes me wonder if you are a Catholic.

I have only heard of this prayer in the last 14 years and I would say, just my opinion, that not all Catholics know this prayer.

Prayer in question:
Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins.
Save us from the fires of hell.
Lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.

Even tho many “know” this prayer, how many actually look at or ponder this prayer?

Seems as if there are some that probably say this prayer but don’t even come close to believing and/or hoping that it will come about.

“Lead ALL souls to Heaven”, pretty simple, direct and catholic, wouldn’t you say?

“especially those in most need of Thy Mercy”, what a beautiful thing to pray for and to hope for.

Do you think that Jesus will “Lead ALL souls to Heaven”, somehow or another, just like this prayer asks for?

 

[Amandil]

I believe that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, is for ALL to be, ultimately, with God.

Matthew 22:14, “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

As I said, I do not know the details but I do not need to know the details.

That’s not the issue. The issue is about what you obstinately reject which has already been revealed.

I also believe that Jesus went to hell and that hell is custom built by its occupant and one of the reasons that I believe that Jesus went to hell is that I do not believe that I have been thru worse than Jesus, actually, I believe that Jesus has been thru worse than me in that Jesus went to everyone’s hell.

That Jesus went to save those under the Old Covenant who were waiting for Him is verifiable. The rest is nothing but your own opinion and has no bearing on what actually happened.

The Church has throughout history revealed that hell is not merely “personal” but is in fact objective real. That it is definitive exclusion from God. You openly and obstinately reject this teaching of the Church, which makes your opinion by definition heretical.

As far as “By the way on your repeated comments about being chosen by God in a dream, personally I think that is nonsense and you probably need help.”, you are entitled to your opinion but as you probably know, it is written that some of Jesus’s contemporaries thought that He needed help also.

Either I “need help”, as you put it, or I am stating a simple fact, God chooses whomever God chooses for whatever God chooses someone for.

Comparing yourself to Jesus? The difference is that Jesus backed up His authority. You cannot. The only testimony that you can provide that God “chose” you is you.

What nullifies your testimony that God “chose” you is that your testimony is in fact contrary not only to the Church, which is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth”, which you have consistently derided as inferior to your opinion, but that your opinion is also contrary to the plain sense of Scripture.

So the only conclusion, since God obviously did not choose you, is that you are either lying to yourself, or that you are convinced in your delusion(and are a in fact delusional).

 

[Tom_Baum]

Matthew 22:14, “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

That’s not the issue. The issue is about what you obstinately reject which has already been revealed.

That Jesus went to save those under the Old Covenant who were waiting for Him is verifiable. The rest is nothing but your own opinion and has no bearing on what actually happened.

The Church has throughout history revealed that hell is not merely “personal” but is in fact objective real. That it is definitive exclusion from God. You openly and obstinately reject this teaching of the Church, which makes your opinion by definition heretical.

Comparing yourself to Jesus? The difference is that Jesus backed up His authority. You cannot. The only testimony that you can provide that God “chose” you is you.

What nullifies your testimony that God “chose” you is that your testimony is in fact contrary not only to the Church, which is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth”, which you have consistently derided as inferior to your opinion, but that your opinion is also contrary to the plain sense of Scripture.

So the only conclusion, since God obviously did not choose you, is that you are either lying to yourself, or that you are convinced in your delusion(and are a in fact delusional).

Time will tell.

As I have said many times, I can not “prove” any of my “experiences”, only God can.

By the way, as far as “Comparing yourself to Jesus?”, isn’t that Who we are to compare ourself too, if we compare ourself to anyone?

To put it mildly, I come up short.

Matthew 22:14, “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
John 12: 32 “And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.””

Would you consider these contradictory or complementary or something else altogether?

In the “Oh my Jesus” prayer, one of the lines is: “Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.”, do you have any idea or opinion on why we were asked to pray for Jesus to lead ALL souls to Heaven?

Could God be trying to “get to us” by sending this prayer rather recently?

Didn’t this prayer come about in the mid 1800’s?

 

[Amandil]

Time will tell.

As I have said many times, I can not “prove” any of my “experiences”, only God can.

God not only can, but already has, proven your “experiences” untrue because they have been tested here.

If you “experiences” were true, they would withstand the test and would agree with the Church. They don’t.

By the way, as far as “Comparing yourself to Jesus?”, isn’t that Who we are to compare ourself too, if we compare ourself to anyone?

You’re “comparing” yourself to Christ in that you think that your authority is equal to Christ and over the Church.

Neither does your opinions have any identity or correspondence with Christ’s words in Scripture.

You are woefully incorrect.

To put it mildly, I come up short.

That’s the truest thing you’ve said in this entire discussion.

Matthew 22:14, “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
John 12: 32 “And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.””

Would you consider these contradictory or complementary or something else altogether?

There is a huge difference between “I will draw everyone to myself” and “all are ULTIMATELY SAVED”.

By Jesus saying, “And when I am lifted up, I will draw everyone to myself,” He is affirming the fact that the Gospel will be spread to all men and that they will ULTIMATELY be faced with the choice to either ACCEPT salvation or REJECT salvation in His name.

It is in no way some guarantee that "all are ULTIMATELY saved. To say that it is a guarantee is to read that opinion into it.

In the “Oh my Jesus” prayer, one of the lines is: “Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.”, do you have any idea or opinion on why we were asked to pray for Jesus to lead ALL souls to Heaven?

Because as a matter of charity we all want the highest good for all humanity, that’s the end for which any love is directed. And salvation from sins and obtaining eternal beatitude with God in heaven is the highest good for all of humanity.

This is still not a guarantee that “all are ULTIMATELY saved”. In fact when Mary taught that prayer to the children in Fatima she was quite clear that there are souls in hell and that those souls were suffering without hope due to their indifference towards sin in life.

It is only in this life where the issue, from our perspective, of the state of any individual soul is still in doubt. Once that soul enters into eternity it is either saved, though it may pass by the antechamber of purgatory, or it is condemned. And in either of those states it remains; there is no movement of souls between hell or heaven, regardless of whatever Scripture you decide to twist.

 

[MrSnaith]

In the “Oh my Jesus” prayer, one of the lines is: “Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.”, do you have any idea or opinion on why we were asked to pray for Jesus to lead ALL souls to Heaven?

Could God be trying to “get to us” by sending this prayer rather recently?

I would just like to throw out there the fact that if we’re being told to pray “lead all souls to Heaven” there is an unspoken implication that it is possible not all souls will. If all souls will go to Heaven, why pray for this at all? Your use of this prayer to make your point actually runs counter to your point.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I would just like to throw out there the fact that if we’re being told to pray “lead all souls to Heaven” there is an unspoken implication that it is possible not all souls will. If all souls will go to Heaven, why pray for this at all? Your use of this prayer to make your point actually runs counter to your point.

Have you ever noticed that prayer can and does at times change the prayer (person praying) rather than the Prayee (God).

As I said, could be that God is trying to get thru to us that the Good News truly is Good News.

 

[MrSnaith]

Have you ever noticed that prayer can and does at times change the prayer (person praying) rather than the Prayee (God).

As I said, could be that God is trying to get thru to us that the Good News truly is Good News.

Doesn’t change the point, though. Whether I pray this prayer or not makes no difference to my final end, in your viewpoint. Therefore, whether I am changed by praying the prayer or not, it doesn’t matter. Why should God try to get through to us that the Gospel is the Gospel if in the end whether we see it as good news or not is irrelevant?

 

[thistle]

I believe that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, is for ALL to be, ultimately, with God.

As I said, I do not know the details but I do not need to know the details.

I also believe that Jesus went to hell and that hell is custom built by its occupant and one of the reasons that I believe that Jesus went to hell is that I do not believe that I have been thru worse than Jesus, actually, I believe that Jesus has been thru worse than me in that Jesus went to everyone’s hell.

As far as “By the way on your repeated comments about being chosen by God in a dream, personally I think that is nonsense and you probably need help.”, you are entitled to your opinion but as you probably know, it is written that some of Jesus’s contemporaries thought that He needed help also.

Either I “need help”, as you put it, or I am stating a simple fact, God chooses whomever God chooses for whatever God chooses someone for.

Wow! You are equating yourself to God!!

You are still evading the questions. Are you saying that an infallible teaching of the Church backed by the full authority of God is or can be wrong??

 

[Tom_Baum]

Wow! You are equating yourself to God!!

You are still evading the questions. Are you saying that an infallible teaching of the Church backed by the full authority of God is or can be wrong??

I am not “equating myself to God” and I do not see how you can possibly come up with that from what I wrote.

Is it an infallible teaching of the Church that God’s Will, clearly written in the bible, will not be done?

 

[Aloysium]

Pope Francis spoke at the prayer vigil for victims of the mafias: (youtube.com/watch?v=Df6lVDWgQag&list=UU7E-LYc1wivk33iyt5bR5zQ around 1:33, but in Italian)

A quote from a translation of his talk: “There’s still time to not end up in hell, which is what awaits you if you continue on this path.”

Whatever one’s view, it is wise to consider these words. Although happy for everyone else, I personally would not want hell to be empty except for me, so I’m going to try to do God’s will.

 

[Amandil]

I am not “equating myself to God” and I do not see how you can come up with that from what I wrote.

By continually insisting “all are…saved” you’re assuming something specific to God: the judgment of souls.

Is it an infallible teaching of the Church that God’s Will, clearly written in the bible, will not be done?

God’s will does not exclude human free will but includes it. Therefore God’s will includes the very real possibility that many will refuse Him and thus choose hell.

That’s the teaching of the Church.

 

[Tom_Baum]

By continually insisting “all are…saved” you’re assuming something specific to God: the judgment of souls.

God’s will does not exclude human free will but includes it. Therefore God’s will includes the very real possibility that many will refuse Him and thus choose hell.

That’s the teaching of the Church.

The Church also teaches that God is Omniscient, doesn’t It?

What I referred to, that is clearly written in the bible, is: “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”.

Seems that this was written by Paul about Jesus, correct or not?

Could be that God’s Plan includes that God “wills everyone to be saved” as written by Paul concerning Jesus and it was Jesus, God-Incarnate HImself, Who taught us to pray “Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”, wasn’t it?

Seems to me that the least that we can do is to pray as Jesus taught us, it was the Apostles who asked Jesus to teach them to pray, wasn’t it?

And in the footnotes of the on line bible in the USCCB website concerning these verses in the bible, it is written: “In actuality, such prayer aids the community to achieve peaceful relationships with non-Christians (1 Tm 2:2) and contributes to salvation, since it derives its value from the presence within the community of Christ, who is the one and only savior of all (1 Tm 2:3–6). The vital apostolic mission to the Gentiles (1 Tm 2:7) reflects Christ’s purpose of universal salvation. 1 Tm 2:5 contains what may well have been a very primitive creed. Some interpreters have called it a Christian version of the Jewish shema: “Hear, O Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD alone…” (Dt 6:4–5). The assertion in 1 Tm 2:7, “I am speaking the truth, I am not lying,” reminds one of similar affirmations in Rom 9:1; 2 Cor 11:31; and Gal 1:20.”

 

[Amandil]

The Church also teaches that God is Omniscient, doesn’t It?

We’ve been over this Tom. Omniscience includes God creating us with free will as part of our essential nature, so it cannot be an argument against it.

What I referred to, that is clearly written in the bible, is: “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”.

Seems that this was written by Paul about Jesus, correct or not?

Again, we’ve already been over this. Free will is necessarily included in regards to God’s will, this includes the very real choice that many will make to reject God. This is a thwarting of His will that God permits, hence it is necessarily part of His will that many will not to be saved because they reject Him.

Could be that God’s Plan includes that God “wills everyone to be saved” as written by Paul concerning Jesus and it was Jesus, God-Incarnate HImself, Who taught us to pray “Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”, wasn’t it?

We pray “Thy will be done.”

Those who reject God demand, “MY Will be done.”

Since they refuse to conform their wills to that of God, God lets them have their way, hence they go to hell by their own volition.

Seems to me that the least that we can do is to pray as Jesus taught us, it was the Apostles who asked Jesus to teach them to pray, wasn’t it?

This is a strawman. I never said that we are NOT to pray as such.

And in the footnotes of the on line bible in the USCCB website concerning these verses in the bible, it is written: “In actuality, such prayer aids the community to achieve peaceful relationships with non-Christians (1 Tm 2:2) and contributes to salvation, since it derives its value from the presence within the community of Christ, who is the one and only savior of all (1 Tm 2:3–6). The vital apostolic mission to the Gentiles (1 Tm 2:7) reflects Christ’s purpose of universal salvation. 1 Tm 2:5 contains what may well have been a very primitive creed. Some interpreters have called it a Christian version of the Jewish shema: “Hear, O Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD alone…” (Dt 6:4–5). The assertion in 1 Tm 2:7, “I am speaking the truth, I am not lying,” reminds one of similar affirmations in Rom 9:1; 2 Cor 11:31; and Gal 1:20.”

There is a huge difference between Christ’s “purpose of universal salvation”, which He accomplished at Calvary, with the achievement and consummation of salvation which is conditional based upon our free will consent to accept that salvation.

This negates nothing that I have said when properly understood.

 

[bedan_elite]

You should be careful taking and interpreting human descriptions of spiritual visions in an overly literalist manner. Visions are like parables, God communicates spiritual realities to us in ways that we can understand by our own limited ability to perceive, like any good teacher. The visions are/were to demonstrate visually the true horror of hell in a way that they could understand. The horror and deprivation of all light, goodness, beauty, and truth; the hoplessness and torment of the condemned, that is what the vision was meant to convey, not the idea the hell resides a few miles below us under the crust of the earth.

Philippians 2:6-11
New International Version (NIV)

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature** of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Hi Amandil : This was the 2nd reading last Sunday. So there really is a place and souls under the earth…**