Hell

[ASonOfGod]

Are you kidding me? I know of two places in the bible, heaven and hell… and the earth isn’t heaven.

Too often, Hell is a subject - and a place - not seriously taken into consideration. Yet the Bible mentions this place many times, especially in the four gospels found in the New Testament. Hell is mentioned all throughout the Bible, and as we know that Jesus is God, we can ensure that what he tells us about Hell is true. What did Jesus say on this subject?

Hell itself is “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41, NIV, see entry: “Why Was Hell Created?”) However, when Satan fell, (Isaiah 14:12-20, Ezekiel 28:12-17, Luke 10:18, etc) he entered into the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve, our ancestors, dwelled. Disguising himself as a snake, Satan approached Eve and made her question God’s command not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

**YOU CAN SEE, FIRE ISN’T ALWAYS A FLAME, IT CAN BE ENERGY/ETHERIC.
**
Matthew 3:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Satan is in charge of hell right?!

2 Corinthians 4:4
New Living Translation (NLT)

4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

So, guess what. You don’t have to worry about going to hell!

 

[MrSnaith]

I’d like to see the JPII quote in which he says that. I find it highly unlikely that he said any such thing, particularly since we know for certain that Hell will contain, at the very least, demons, when all is said and done.

Actually, here’s a quote from his general audience address on July 28, 1999: “Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever.”

Seems kind of funny to me for him to say this, then suggest that in the end Hell may be empty. The implication would have to therefore be that everyone freely chooses God before death. I suppose that’s possible, but it’s rather doubtful, considering the lengths Christ went to, to give us instruction. If everyone does, then whether they’ve heard the Gospel or not doesn’t seem to make a difference.

From the same address, the Pope says, “Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of **whether **or which human beings are effectively involved in it.”

Here, the Holy Father seems to imply the possibility that humans are not involved in Hell at all. Perhaps this is what you are pointing to. This suggestion, though, is given with the very sober warning that Hell is a real possibility for us, whether any human is there now or not. Moreover, by entering the caveat “without special divine revelation,” he suggests that there are some who have received special divine revelation of the knowledge of the fact that human beings are effectively involved in hell (perhaps this is an allusion to Fatima).

 

[ASonOfGod]

Actually, here’s a quote from his general audience address on July 28, 1999: “Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever.”

Seems kind of funny to me for him to say this, then suggest that in the end Hell may be empty. The implication would have to therefore be that everyone freely chooses God before death. I suppose that’s possible, but it’s rather doubtful, considering the lengths Christ went to, to give us instruction. If everyone does, then whether they’ve heard the Gospel or not doesn’t seem to make a difference.

From the same address, the Pope says, “Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of **whether **or which human beings are effectively involved in it.”

Here, the Holy Father seems to imply the possibility that humans are not involved in Hell at all. Perhaps this is what you are pointing to. This suggestion, though, is given with the very sober warning that Hell is a real possibility for us, whether any human is there now or not. Moreover, by entering the caveat “without special divine revelation,” he suggests that there are some who have received special divine revelation of the knowledge of the fact that human beings are effectively involved in hell (perhaps this is an allusion to Fatima).

Yup, descending for “heaven=above=higher consciousness=remembrance”, into the darkness of not knowing, the pit. Trapped in a continuous cycle of reincarnation until (by gods grace) an angel reaches out to you and shows a person the truth if they’re humble enough. HELL = out of Gods presence, that’s what angels are for… God cant see yall.

 

[MrSnaith]

Yup, descending for “heaven=above=higher consciousness=remembrance”, into the darkness of not knowing, the pit. **Trapped in a continuous cycle of reincarnation **until (by gods grace) an angel reaches out to you and shows a person the truth if they’re humble enough. HELL = out of Gods presence, that’s what angels are for… God cant see yall.

This is incorrect. We are not souls trapped in a body. We are a body/soul union. That is to say, your soul is the Form of your body, and your body is the Matter of that Form (using Aristotelian terms here). You are your body inasmuch as you are your soul. The suggestion that you will be reincarnated means that you are not your body at all, but only your soul who happens to inhabit a body. That’s not Catholic teaching. You live once, and you die, and whatever the nature of your relationship with God at the time of your death, it is fixed for eternity, even after your body has been restored to you in the resurrection.

 

[Amandil]

This is incorrect. We are not souls trapped in a body. We are a body/soul union. That is to say, your soul is the Form of your body, and your body is the Matter of that Form (using Aristotelian terms here). You are your body inasmuch as you are your soul. The suggestion that you will be reincarnated means that you are not your body at all, but only your soul who happens to inhabit a body. That’s not Catholic teaching. You live once, and you die, and whatever the nature of your relationship with God at the time of your death, it is fixed for eternity, even after your body has been restored to you in the resurrection.

By “not Catholic teaching” we mean that it is not in accord with any Christian teaching much less the teaching of Scripture.

Reincarnation is pantheistic idea, not compatible with Scripture.

 

[MrSnaith]

By “not Catholic teaching” we mean that it is not in accord with any Christian teaching much less the teaching of Scripture.

Reincarnation is pantheistic idea, not compatible with Scripture.

 

[MacQ]

The implication would have to therefore be that everyone freely chooses God before death…

Seems to me that this is the crux of the issue…time.
You assume that a point in time of physical death of the body on earth.
You really don’t know what happens to the soul after that…or when it happens.

This is all therefore rather like arguing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

 

[thistle]

Seems to me that this is the crux of the issue…time.
You assume that a point in time of physical death of the body on earth.
You really don’t know what happens to the soul after that…or when it happens.

This is all therefore rather like arguing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

Dead is dead! You only have a chance to repent before you are dead. Trying to argue about when someone is dead is totally irrelevant. When you die does not matter. You can only repent before that.

When you are dead your soul immediately goes to Hell if you die in a state of mortal sin or you are immediately saved (straight to Heaven or Purgatory first) if you die in a state of grace.

 

[MacQ]

Dead is dead! You only have a chance to repent before you are dead. Trying to argue about when someone is dead is totally irrelevant. When you die does not matter. You can only repent before that.

When you are dead your soul immediately goes to Hell if you die in a state of mortal sin or you are immediately saved (straight to Heaven or Purgatory first) if you die in a state of grace.

Well, I wish you well in your certainty. As for me, it’s above my pay grade to proffer thus on what happens next after death as I can’t even do that in life…it’s full of surprises, so I think death may also be (in fact, I kind of hope it is for some people).

 

[MrSnaith]

Well, I wish you well in your certainty. As for me, it’s above my pay grade to proffer thus on what happens next after death as I can’t even do that in life…it’s full of surprises, so I think death may also be (in fact, I kind of hope it is for some people).

I may be above your paygrade, and also mine, but not the Church’s, and the Church has spoken clearly about this.

From the CCC:
*I. The Particular Judgment

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595*

From the CCC:
*V. The Last Judgment

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"621 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."622 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him … Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left… and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."623

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.624 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."625

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvellous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. the Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.626

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."627 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all who have believed."628*

Also see the CCC on Hell: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

 

[MacQ]

I may be above your paygrade, and also mine, but not the Church’s, and the Church has spoken clearly about this.

From the CCC:
I. The Particular Judgment

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595

From the CCC:
V. The Last Judgment

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"621 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."622 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him … Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left… and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."623

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.624 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."625

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvellous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. the Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.626

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."627 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all who have believed."628

Also see the CCC on Hell: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

I have a Catechism, but thanks.
I will continue to pray for the dead.

 

[TRH1292]

I have a Catechism, but thanks.
I will continue to pray for the dead.

Honestly man, come on. This whole thread is really absurd. Obviously nobody said not to pray for the dead. The Church that says we should pray for the Dead is the same Church that says there is no repentance after death.

This thread has gone on in annoying circles long enough.

 

[MacQ]

Honestly man, come on. This whole thread is really absurd. Obviously nobody said not to pray for the dead. The Church that says we should pray for the Dead is the same Church that says there is no repentance after death.

This thread has gone on in annoying circles long enough.

Well, I agree, actually. That was my point all along.

 

[TRH1292]

Well, I agree, actually. That was my point all along.

Nobody on this thread attempted to persuade you to not pray for the dead. We should pray for everyone that died. I am not sure why there is such a long disagreement on here.

 

[MacQ]

Nobody on this thread attempted to persuade you to not pray for the dead. We should pray for everyone that died. I am not sure why there is such a long disagreement on here.

Actually, I’m not sure either…or why you’re jumping on me, for that matter.
I opined that it seemed to me that people were arguing something no one could know (like angels on the head of a pin).
Others countered that they do know that at the moment of death (the earthly death of the body as defined by us)… there is some kind of irrevocable condemnation of some people at that moment.

So…if that is the case, I’d say why pray for the dead?

And since I don’t buy that these self appointed catechism cut and pasters DO know what happens or when, I will continue to pray for the dead, knowing that God is the one who sorts it out.

 

[MrSnaith]

I have a Catechism, but thanks.
I will continue to pray for the dead.

You said that “You really don’t know what happens to the soul after [physical death]…or when it happens.”

I offered the teaching of the Church, that we do know. You undergo a particular judgement, and then later a last judgement. Moreover, we know that death itself is what seals the outcome of that judgement (heaven, hell or purgatory). Moreover, the Church teaches that the particular judgement occurs “at the very moment” of death, meaning immediately. There’s no ambiguity here. We also know that Hell is very real, and the CCC quotes the scripture that states that the road to destruction is wide and many enter therein. To say that it’s possible nobody will be there renders this scripture false.

The arguments are not circular. You’ve made assertions, I’m answering them. I will continue to pray for the dead, too. But those prayers are efficacious only for those who are in purgatory. And just because you have a catechism doesn’t mean anything in particular except that you have one.

It’s true that we don’t know the eternal destiny of any particular soul, except for the declared Saints, but that doesn’t mean we can’t know anything about what happens to souls *in general *at the point of and after death. In fact, we do.

 

[chimo]

Why do some Christians not believe that hell is not a real place. Even in our Catholic church we have Catholics that don’t believe hell is a real place. The bible clearly describes hell as a real place - not to mention all the private revelation yet some people refuse to believe and want to come up with their own concept of hell. Jesus referred to hell as a place. When did this start happening and how can people contradict the bible. Does the church still believe hell to be a real place?I don’t think its changed, Is this a liberal view?

To be in hell is to have this state already within you. People actually do not go to hell. They are already in it. If your state which is in you is hell and there is no way that God can cure it and you die in this state than sadly God puts you into a place where you can live forever with this hell. There is a place where this hell in people be best served and it is recorded in the visions of the three shepherd children of Fatima and of St. Maria Faustina who all witnessed the reality and existence of hell not only of the condition which people and demons are in but of an exact place where these conditions of these people and demons are now experiencing together this great loss of God. They are all experiencing a great hatred which cannot be extinguished. Jesus told St. Maria that the devil hates continuously which means the devil has this hatred directed towards us and God because there is this hatred within. Those who hate outwardly do it because they have this hatred within. They created their own hell. Before God places you to a place where you can vent out this hell you have to have this hell in you first. So yes there is a place where people who are in this state go to. Whatever God gives to them would only be turned into a greater hatred so since He cannot have them in heaven there is a place for them as well for who wants someone besides you who constantly gives out this hatred.

 

[MacQ]

You said that “You really don’t know what happens to the soul after [physical death]…or when it happens.”

I offered the teaching of the Church, that we do know. You undergo a particular judgement, and then later a last judgement. Moreover, we know that death itself is what seals the outcome of that judgement (heaven, hell or purgatory). .

Why have a second (final) judgement then?

 

[MrSnaith]

Why have a second (final) judgement then?

One is private, one is public. The last judgement is also more expansive, including not only the judgement of each person, but also the revealed judgement upon all of history. Yet, both the particular and the last judgement, with regards to each person, are judgements about their earthly lives only, not of any time after their deaths. This is clear from CCC 1022, because our particular judgement is at the moment of our death, implying it regards our choices to the point of our death, and from CCC 1039, which clearly states that the last judgement is about our choices made during our “earthly life.” That there are two judgements does not necessarily imply the possibility of repentance after death.

 

[MacQ]

Well, I’ll leave the “burning questions” to you all, who seem to be full of the knowledge of good and evil.
I reckon one of the circles of my inferno, I’d be surrounded by evangelists waving their bibles and quoting scripture they personally interpreted, and perhaps a few catholics into the bargain waving their catechisms doing likewise.
As life is full of surpises, I reckon death may be too.

Pax.