Hell

[MacQ]

Yeah, especially about the “is not” ones.

It is really sad that some of those that think they have the highest opinions of God seem to have the lowest opinions of God in that the “God” of their “conception” is quite horrible.

I don’t know if “opinions” is quite the right word but I hope you see what I am trying to say.

God has all of the bases covered so that all will make it home.

What is really a shame is not so much that so many don’t seem to believe this but that so many don’t seem to even want this to be.

The absolute lack of concern of some people’s “conception” of those in heaven toward those in hell is to me quite mind-boggling and makes it sound as if the heaven of their “conception” is quite hellish and self-centered and totally lacking in human empathy much less Divine empathy.

Nicely said…I totally agree, but couldn’t express it as well as you have.
The idea of a heaven filled with self-congratulatory folks patting themselves on the back for having ‘made it’…while gloating that others didn’t… is pretty noxious to me.
As is the idea that some people seem to have a need to lay down judgements themselves that are only God’s to make. As for me, I am happy I don’t have to be the decider!

 

[MacQ]

The Church teaches infallibly that a person who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and that there is no chance AFTER death to change your mind and repent.
Reading back through all your posts I got the impression you did not agree with that. If my impression is incorrect then you have my apologies.

I do agree with that…and I try to live my life accordingly.
But I do also think that TIME OF DEATH may not be limited to our own conception of it. Man has a pretty good idea of when physical death occurs in our concept of linear time. But I don’t think anyone is equipped to know what kind of time a soul enters at that point.

You seem to be saying that at the time of death man has defined…that man can observe… certain irrevocable things happen. No wise catechist I know (including John Paul II) is willing to wade into what no one can really know. Nothing in the Catechism REFUTES that…in fact it stops short of that kind of explicit pronouncement, and allows that some things are left to God’s mercy and justice.

 

[thistle]

I do agree with that…and I try to live my life accordingly.
But I do also think that TIME OF DEATH may not be limited to our own conception of it. Man has a pretty good idea of when physical death occurs in our concept of linear time. But I don’t think anyone is equipped to know what kind of time a soul enters at that point.

You seem to be saying that at the time of death man has defined…that man can observe… certain things happen. No wise catechist I know (including John Paul II) is willing to wade into what no one can really know. Nothing in the Catechism REFUTES that…in fact it stops short of that kind of explicit pronouncement, and allows that some things are left to God’s mercy and justice.

I never said anything about time of death being defined by man. It is irrelevant how it is defined. God knows when someone is dead and when they are dead there is no chance to repent and change their mind.

 

[MacQ]

I never said anything about time of death being defined by man. It is irrelevant how it is defined. God knows when someone is dead and when they are dead there is no chance to repent and change their mind.

You’re right, you didn’t say that explicitly, but I wondered if that’s what you were implying. That’s why I wrote “you seem to be saying”…to clarify.
Now you have.

 

[bedan_elite]

Guardian angels do not “fight for us” in regards to our salvation. They are ministering spirits sent by God to aid us to do His will. They are NOT our mediators before God, Christ is.

And the angels can no more violate free will than God can. To be saved requires our VOLUNTARY FREE ACT OF SELF-SURRENDER to God. Even if the angels were our advocates before God(which they’re not), their words cannot change the choice we have made to refuse to be saved.

Secondly God, by His eternal providence and omniscience, already knows which of His children will choose heaven and which ones will refuse it.

So its a safe bet that the angels at the point of an individual’s death know this as well.

In any case, you’re mistaken.

Divine justice has already been satisfied by Jesus at Calvary. He gets the justice, we get the mercy, ONLY if we accept it.

Refusal to accept Christ either explicitly through the Gospel or implicitly by Natural Law, necessarily means the loss of salvation. Period.

All of this is in the Catechism. Instead of making false statements and assumptions based upon your limited understanding of theology I suggest you go and actually read what the Church actually has to say on the matter. You have a responsibility to properly form your conscience according to the truth, not only according to your own opinions.

And you run the risk of committing scandal by misinforming others based on your false understandings, no matter how well intended.

I have a priest friend who had dinner in my house the other day and for him, nothing is really certain and everything can be made good. I’m just a regular person who express my own opinion here and I’m not like you who is always sure about everything you say to the point that you make it appear that everybody else is wrong except yourself who has a full understanding of theology. Do you know what humility is? It is true that most of the time we do not practice what we preach.

 

[bedan_elite]

Guardian angels do not “fight for us” in regards to our salvation. They are ministering spirits sent by God to aid us to do His will. They are NOT our mediators before God, Christ is.

And the angels can no more violate free will than God can. To be saved requires our VOLUNTARY FREE ACT OF SELF-SURRENDER to God. Even if the angels were our advocates before God(which they’re not), their words cannot change the choice we have made to refuse to be saved.

Secondly God, by His eternal providence and omniscience, already knows which of His children will choose heaven and which ones will refuse it.

So its a safe bet that the angels at the point of an individual’s death know this as well.

In any case, you’re mistaken.

Divine justice has already been satisfied by Jesus at Calvary. He gets the justice, we get the mercy, ONLY if we accept it.

Refusal to accept Christ either explicitly through the Gospel or implicitly by Natural Law, necessarily means the loss of salvation. Period.

All of this is in the Catechism. Instead of making false statements and assumptions based upon your limited understanding of theology I suggest you go and actually read what the Church actually has to say on the matter. You have a responsibility to properly form your conscience according to the truth, not only according to your own opinions.

And you run the risk of committing scandal by misinforming others based on your false understandings, no matter how well intended.

Please allow me to reply to what you said about Christ being the mediator between God and man. How can Christ be the mediator when He Himself is God. The #1 mediator is our Blessed Mother followed by all the saints and martyrs and everybody else who are capable of praying for others (remember the communion of saints). I trust my guardian angel and I know he will “fight” the evil one to the last end of my life and he will always be with me until I’m out of purgatory.

 

[f4phantom9277]

But if hell is basically a separation from God…if these people are already living a life without God in it, how would hell be any different?

People may be living life at this time perfectly fine without God, but how do you know this will always be the case? There are people who lived without God lying in nursing home beds completely incapable of quality of life and drug addicts who are in a living hell (there own words) right now…would an eternal extension of that be ok? No one is perfectly content with or without God all of their lives.

 

[bedan_elite]

Please allow me to reply to what you said about Christ being the mediator between God and man. How can Christ be the mediator when He Himself is God. The #1 mediator is our Blessed Mother followed by all the saints and martyrs and everybody else who are capable of praying for others (remember the communion of saints). I trust my guardian angel and I know he will “fight” the evil one to the last end of my life and he will always be with me until I’m out of purgatory.

Amandil : In addition to what you said…That is a hardcore protestant belief from which you once belonged to. Please forget it.

 

[Amandil]

I have a priest friend who had dinner in my house the that other day and for him, nothing is really certain and everything can be made good.

If “nothing is really certain” then how can he, or you, be certain about the idea that “nothing is really certain”?

Its a self-contradictory statement.

EveryTHING can be made good. But not everyone will be saved. Big difference.

I’m just a regular person who express my own opinion here and I’m not like you who is always sure about everything you say to the point that you make it appear that everybody else is wrong except yourself who has a full understanding of theology. Do you know what humility is? It is true that most of the time we do not practice what we preach.

Humility is defined as living in accordance with the truth.

It is not humble, nor honest, nor loving to deceive people or spread falsehoods about the faith no matter how sincere or well intended it may be.

Its like someone who is trained as a plumber who thinks that they can perform the duties of a surgeon and who “sincerely” wants to save someone so he tries to perform a surgery on them. Are you really so in love with your opinions that you’re willing to do infinite harm to others? And if you’ve scandalized others by your false opinions and are held to account for them by God, are you really willing to depend upon your sincerity alone? “Surely God won’t punish people for honest mistakes?” Is that all you were thinking about? Are you actually saying that its just as good to(intellectually speaking) work in the dark all our lives and doing infinite harm, provided only someone will assure us that our skins are safe, that no one will punish us or blame us?

He(the plumber) has no real knowledge of anatomy, nor of proper sterilization procedure, just his sincerity.

And he’ll wind up killing him when if he just would have taken him to a real doctor he would have been fine.

It is NOT humble to place your human opinions about soteriology on par with revealed doctrine, especially when they are diametrically opposed to it.

It is absolutely humble to proclaim the truth of the Faith, frankly and honestly, without diversion or alteration, because it’s not MY truth, its definitely not MY “opinion”, its God’s Truth.

Again, its not me that’s mistaken here.

 

[TRH1292]

Amandil : In addition to what you said…That is a hardcore protestant belief from which you once belonged to. Please forget it.

“You are seated at the right hand of the father to intercede for us, Lord have Mercy.”

1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus”

 

[bedan_elite]

“You are seated at the right hand of the father to intercede for us, Lord have Mercy.”

1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus”

Exactly the same verses that a protestant would quote to prove that they are right and the Catholics’ belief in the Mediatrix and the communion of saints is a sham. Honestly, I don’t know how to defend my belief in the intercession of saints but I believe in it deep in my heart.

 

[bedan_elite]

If “nothing is really certain” then how can he, or you, be certain about the idea that “nothing is really certain”?

Its a self-contradictory statement.

EveryTHING can be made good. But not everyone will be saved. Big difference.

Humility is defined as living in accordance with the truth.

It is not humble, nor honest, nor loving to deceive people or spread falsehoods about the faith no matter how sincere or well intended it may be.

Its like someone who is trained as a plumber who thinks that they can perform the duties of a surgeon and who “sincerely” wants to save someone so he tries to perform a surgery on them. Are you really so in love with your opinions that you’re willing to do infinite harm to others? And if you’ve scandalized others by your false opinions and are held to account for them by God, are you really willing to depend upon your sincerity alone? “Surely God won’t punish people for honest mistakes?” Is that all you were thinking about? Are you actually saying that its just as good to(intellectually speaking) work in the dark all our lives and doing infinite harm, provided only someone will assure us that our skins are safe, that no one will punish us or blame us?

He(the plumber) has no real knowledge of anatomy, nor of proper sterilization procedure, just his sincerity.

And he’ll wind up killing him when if he just would have taken him to a real doctor he would have been fine.

It is NOT humble to place your human opinions about soteriology on par with revealed doctrine, especially when they are diametrically opposed to it.

It is absolutely humble to proclaim the truth of the Faith, frankly and honestly, without diversion or alteration, because it’s not MY truth, its definitely not MY “opinion”, its God’s Truth.

Again, its not me that’s mistaken here.

again, peace to you brother

 

[Amandil]

Amandil : In addition to what you said…That is a hardcore protestant belief from which you once belonged to. Please forget it.

No it is not a “hard core protestant belief”, its a truth of the Faith.

The protestant misinterpretation has to do with the communion of the saints. It doesn’t negate the fact that Christ is the only mediator between God and man because Christ specifically stands as our high priest, not the angels.

CCC 618.

CCC 970, “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ…”

The angels did not become Incarnate and assume our hunanity, nor did they die on the cross at Calvary, so they cannot win salvation for anyone.

Do you even own a Catechism? If so have you ever studied it?

Even if they did, it would still requires the free will surrender of the individual.

 

[Amandil]

again, peace to you brother

Instead of just replying in this fashion, why not take the time instead to learn your Faith. Attend or sponsor someone in your parish RCIA program. Find an adult catechism class. Read the bible and if you don’t have a Catechism of the Church, buy one.

Just giving your opinion, “shooting from the hip”, you’re not only giving false information, but if you encounter protestants who are in fact familiar with Scripture you’ll only feed their prejudice that “Catholics don’t know the Bible”.

Just a suggestion…

 

[bedan_elite]

No it is not a “hard core protestant belief”, its a truth of the Faith.

The protestant misinterpretation has to do with the communion of the saints. It doesn’t negate the fact that Christ is the only mediator between God and man because Christ specifically stands as our high priest, not the angels.

CCC 618.

CCC 970, “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ…”

The angels did not become Incarnate and assume our hunanity, nor did they die on the cross at Calvary, so they cannot win salvation for anyone.

Do you even own a Catechism? If so have you ever studied it?

Even if they did, it would still requires the free will surrender of the individual.

No I don’t own a Cathechism. I can’t even remember when I took it in school. I was born a Catholic and was raised in a school run by Benedictine monks, that’s why my alias is bedan for St. Bede. I’m a simple man with simple thoughts and I’m not as gifted as you with regards to the faith. Every posting I’ve made here are just my opinions and I didn’t intend to influence others. I try my best to be a good person but sometimes I falter. When I meet my Creator, I don’t think He will ask me if I lived my life according to specific bible verses, dogmas or any other writing that’s sacred to us Catholics. I believe He will ask me if I loved Him and my neighbors and I pray my answer to Him will be yes. Regarding my guardian angel, believe it or not, I had a personal “physical” encounter with him and that’s why I really trust that he’s always beside me defending me against the evil one. Peace brother

 

[Amandil]

No I don’t own a Cathechism. I can’t even remember when I took it in school. I was born a Catholic and was raised in a school run by Benedictine monks, that’s why my alias you mis is bedan for St. Bede. I’m a simple man with simple thoughts and I’m not as gifted as you with regards to the faith. Every posting I’ve made here are just my opinions and I didn’t intend to influence others. I try my best to be a good person but sometimes I falter. When I meet my Creator, I don’t think He will ask me if I lived my life according to specific bible verses, dogmas or any other writing that’s sacred to us Catholics. I believe He will ask me if I loved Him and my neighbors and I pray my answer to Him will be yes. Regarding my guardian angel, believe it or not, I had a personal “physical” encounter with him and that’s why I really trust that he’s always beside me defending me against the evil one. Peace brother

That’s great. But you need to realize that when you posit your opinion as Catholic doctrine you submit yourself to be judged according to a higher standard(James 3:1). Therefore He may and probably will ask you why you mislead His other children and refused correction. He may and probably will ask why you didn’t obey the authority of the Church and teach others according to it.

Scripture says that we must be both wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Wise in regards to the faith, innocent in regards to our acts.

St. Augustine was simple, and incredibly wise and knowledgeable in regards to the Faith, because he knew of the great responsibility laid upon him.

Paul was not foolish enough to not preach truthfully lest he “be disqualified”(1Cor 9:26-27).

I’m not even suggesting that it’s intentional, but you have views which are to say the least heterodox. If you’re going to continue to be a lay evangelist, I highly recommend that you ground yourself more firmly in the doctrines of the Church. If you don’t the only service you may wind up providing is to confuse others rather than educate them.

 

[bedan_elite]

That’s great. But you need to realize that when you posit your opinion as Catholic doctrine you submit yourself to be judged according to a higher standard(James 3:1). Therefore He may and probably will ask you why you mislead His other children and refused correction. He may and probably will ask why you didn’t obey the authority of the Church and teach others according to it.

Scripture says that we must be both wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Wise in regards to the faith, innocent in regards to our acts.

St. Augustine was simple, and incredibly wise and knowledgeable in regards to the Faith, because he knew of the great responsibility laid upon him.

Paul was not foolish enough to not preach truthfully lest he “be disqualified”(1Cor 9:26-27).

I’m not even suggesting that it’s intentional, but you have views which are to say the least heterodox. If you’re going to continue to be a lay evangelist, I highly recommend that you ground yourself more firmly in the doctrines of the Church. If you don’t the only service you may wind up providing is to confuse others rather than educate them.

No, I don’t want to be a lay evangelist. I’ll just pray for more vocations and people like you who can really explain and spread the word. I’m hearing you brother…

 

[Tom_Baum]

I am glad that God is our Judge and our Creator and our Saviour and our Redeemer and our Sanctifier and that none of us are and that God doesn’t have to get our permission for God’s Will to be done but God-Incarnate was kind enough to teach us that this is a Good Thing to pray for and He let us know that when He was asked to teach us how to pray, “… Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven…”.

Concerning 1 Timothy 2:5: There is at least one Catholic that also likes what is so simply said in the surrounding verses.

" First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time. For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

I said, quite a while ago, that I believe that it is better to PRAY the Our Father once than it is to say it a million times.

Kind of sad that so many (those that believe in God) put so many other things (dogma, doctrine, worship, liturgy, whatever) ahead of God and thinks (honestly and whole-heartedly) that this is what God became One of us for.

Ain’t no wonder my namesake said, “These are a hard headed and stiff necked people”, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

God judged us all, condemned us all and redeemed us all and will sanctify us all, God knows the details, I don’t.

Jesus told us that the “mission” of His Church is that “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It” and I happen to believe Him in this statement and also when He said, “When I am lifted up, I will draw EVERYONE to Myself”, quite simply said, not loaded with details but very catholic in scope.

 

[thistle]

No I don’t own a Cathechism. I can’t even remember when I took it in school. I was born a Catholic and was raised in a school run by Benedictine monks, that’s why my alias is bedan for St. Bede. I’m a simple man with simple thoughts and I’m not as gifted as you with regards to the faith. Every posting I’ve made here are just my opinions and I didn’t intend to influence others. I try my best to be a good person but sometimes I falter. When I meet my Creator, I don’t think He will ask me if I lived my life according to specific bible verses, dogmas or any other writing that’s sacred to us Catholics. I believe He will ask me if I loved Him and my neighbors and I pray my answer to Him will be yes. Regarding my guardian angel, believe it or not, I had a personal “physical” encounter with him and that’s why I really trust that he’s always beside me defending me against the evil one. Peace brother

Here is one for free online:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Amandil]

I am glad that God is our Judge and our Creator and our Saviour and our Redeemer and our Sanctifier and that none of us are and that God doesn’t have to get our permission for God’s Will to be done…"

Not only is this contradicted by Scripture-Mary still had to accept the fact that Jesus be conceived in her womb-it contradicts Catholic theology and common sense.

** God’s grace IS NOT IRRESISTIBLE, DE FIDE ** That is Calvinism and was explicitly condemned by the Church at Trent. It is not a matter of opinion. It is not open to debate. To say that "God doesn’t have to get our permission for His Will to be done violates a half-dozen different doctrines of the Faith.

It rejects human nature, thus you are rejecting God and His providence, by rejecting human free will.

Kind of sad that so many (those that believe in God) put so many other things (dogma, doctrine, worship, liturgy, whatever) ahead of God and thinks (honestly and whole-heartedly) that this is what God became One of us for.

False dichotomy. There is nothing contradictory between God and the Church. There is nothing contradictory between what God teaches and what the Church teaches.

God WANTS dogma, doctrine, liturgy “whatever” because dogma, doctrine, liturgy “whatever” not only are merely good but supremely good. ** Jesus Christ ordained them and commanded that they be done. ** And it would be utter nonsense for God to command useless things.

Jesus became one of us to unite us to Himself, and He ordained a Church and the sacraments, the liturgy, the dogma, the doctrine, “whatever”, ** to accomplish that end. **

Heck, the Eucharist IS CHRIST!

What’s terrible is someone who puts their false opinions ahead of the Church of Christ. The Church has a term for those who pick and choose for themselves what to believe and think that their beliefs take precedence over the Church of Christ, who holds supreme authority over all matters relating to Faith and morals.

Ain’t no wonder my namesake said, “These are a hard headed and stiff necked people”, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

God judged us all, condemned us all and redeemed us all and will sanctify us all, God knows the details, I don’t.

If you “don’t know the details”, then neither do you know that “all will be saved.”

In fact Jesus is absolutely sure that “many” will not be saved.

So either Jesus is a liar, or you are terribly wrong.

Jesus told us that the “mission” of His Church is that “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It” and I happen to believe Him in this statement and also when He said, “When I am lifted up, I will draw EVERYONE to Myself”, quite simply said, not loaded with details but very catholic in scope.

Again confusing Redemption with Salvation. Jesus Redeemed all, ** that does not mean that all are saved. **

In fact Jesus says the exact opposite.

So again, either Jesus is a liar, or you are terribly wrong.