Hell

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My apologies if I’ve gotten into your nerves. What about in his…peace it and love to you brother.😃
That’s the funny thing, you haven’t. But apparently I’ve gotten to yours and you’re trying to project that insecurity onto me.

You’re trying to manipulate this into being about whatever this image of “me” is that exists in your mind rather than the truth of the Faith.

Its an attempt at a personal attack. Its condescending.
 
MacQ : Lately, scientists discovered that the human brain still functions 6 minutes after the heart stops… We consider death as when the heart stops or when there is no brain function but is that really the exact time of death and that a person should repent before that? If a person suddenly dies in a car accident, does that really mean he wasn’t given the opportunity to repent? Our loving Father will give us including the unbelievers the opportunity to accept Christ as our saviour before we die because He is all merciful. Maybe we will be given a few seconds after being declared clinically dead to repent. Nothing is impossible. BTW, this is only my opinion…😉
Well, that was my point, actually…that nothing is impossible, and it’s God’s alone to know.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter IN THE LEAST what ‘science’ has… ‘determined’.
My objection is to those who try to say they know when and how this happens. I think that is presumptive and also that it tries to limit God’s ways to our own understanding, thereby belittling Him.
My take on it therefore is: God will sort it all out.
 
Well, that was my point, actually…that nothing is impossible, and it’s God’s alone to know.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter IN THE LEAST what ‘science’ has… ‘determined’.
My objection is to those who try to say they know when and how this happens. I think that is presumptive and also that it tries to limit God’s ways to our own understanding, thereby belittling Him.
My take on it therefore is: God will sort it all out.
I agree 100%. We’re just expressing our own opinions and if anyone here believes his opinion is right or better than the others, he is a fool. There was a saint (as I was told), I think it was St. Thomas Aquinas who was asked by God to dig a hole in the beach which eventually was filled with water. He was told that man’s knowledge is that hole in the beach and God’s was the ocean. The saint burned his books and writings and repented… Nobody here is as smart as St. Thomas Aquinas… Peace 👍
 
Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.[5]
If this is true, and satan and the demons are actually in this lake of fire, how can they be at the same time, tempting humans in the earthly plane? I dont think Satan or the demons can be in 2 places at one time, either in spirit or true form, only God has this ability.
 
If this is true, and satan and the demons are actually in this lake of fire, how can they be at the same time, tempting humans in the earthly plane? I dont think Satan or the demons can be in 2 places at one time, either in spirit or true form, only God has this ability.
Hi Mikekle : If you are Roman Catholic, you should believe the secrets of Fatima because it was approved by the Catholic church as a true apparition of our Blessed Mother. My understanding is not all demons are on earth. A lot of them are in hell but a lot of them are here on earth too. It is with God’s permission that they are allowed to roam the earth to test every human being (book of Job). Since you pointed out that only God can be in 2 places at one time, St. Padre Pio among others had the gift of bilocation. 😉
 
Hi Mikekle : If you are Roman Catholic, you should believe the secrets of Fatima because it was approved by the Catholic church as a true apparition of our Blessed Mother. My understanding is not all demons are on earth. A lot of them are in hell but a lot of them are here on earth too. It is with God’s permission that they are allowed to roam the earth to test every human being (book of Job). Since you pointed out that only God can be in 2 places at one time, St. Padre Pio among others had the gift of bilocation. 😉
If y’all ask me, this is WAY BEYOND what you HAVE to believe to be a Roman Catholic.
And one always need take care not to slide into superstitiousness.
It’s a slippery slope into that lake of fire.
 
That’s the funny thing, you haven’t. But apparently I’ve gotten to yours and you’re trying to project that insecurity onto me.

You’re trying to manipulate this into being about whatever this image of “me” is that exists in your mind rather than the truth of the Faith.

Its an attempt at a personal attack. Its condescending.
Hi Amandil : truth of the Faith? I’m wondering if you are an authority of the church because you are very well versed regarding the faith. Are you a deacon, priest etc? No more smilies
 
If y’all ask me, this is WAY BEYOND what you HAVE to believe to be a Roman Catholic.
And one always need take care not to slide into superstitiousness.
It’s a slippery slope into that lake of fire.
Hi MacQ : The Fatima message is a fact and not superstition. Our Lady of Fatima is real.
 
Hi MacQ : The Fatima message is a fact and not superstition. Our Lady of Fatima is real.
That’s fine. I just said that it is not requisite for catholics to buy in to it.
And that if it is overzealous, that would be wrong.
 
Hi Amandil : truth of the Faith? I’m wondering if you are an authority of the church because you are very well versed regarding the Faith. Are you a deacon, priest etc? No more smilies
I don’t know why you keep trying to push this rabbit trail but I’m not taking your bait.

The Church is the authority. And the Church’s teaching is objectively true, regardless of who proclaims it.

Everything I presented is according to the teaching of the Church, not my personal opinion. That’s what is important.
 
That’s fine. I just said that it is not requisite for catholics to buy in to it.
And that if it is overzealous, that would be wrong.
Mac is correct. While Fatima is a recognized apparition, the personal revelations that the children received from Mary are not required for belief nor are they considered public revelation on par with Sacred Tradition.
 
So who is in Hell right now?
Whoever died in a state of mortal sin is in Hell. Only God knows who they are!

I notice you digressed and made no comment about the infallible Church teaching which you are obliged to believe. What is your comment on having to believe it?
 
As I have said before, it seems as if quite a few who know God’s Name will be quite surprised when they meet God.

As a matter of fact some of these may be even more surprised than those that don’t know God’s Name or even believe in God will be when they meet God.

The “mission” of Jesus’s Church is that “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, hell is part of this “netherworld”.
 
Whoever died in a state of mortal sin is in Hell. Only God knows who they are!

I notice you digressed and made no comment about the infallible Church teaching which you are obliged to believe. What is your comment on having to believe it?
On your first point, quite so. Since I don’t know you, I was asking to ascertain whether you were one of those who claims to be able to name names or make her/his own judgements about who they think is in Hell.

On your second point, which sounds like some kind of unnecessary challenge, there was no intention of digressing, and I am not sure what “infallible” teaching you’re referring to.
 
As I have said before, it seems as if quite a few who know God’s Name will be quite surprised when they meet God.

As a matter of fact some of these may be even more surprised than those that don’t know God’s Name or even believe in God will be when they meet God.

The “mission” of Jesus’s Church is that “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, hell is part of this “netherworld”.
I reckon you’re right about the surprises…the most surprised will be those who are so full of pious certainty about who is and is not “saved”.
I had an exchange with a guy who believes his ticket to heaven is assured and he’ll go straight there when he dies (or when the rapture comes)…obviously not a catholic. He hates Muslims and Jews (and Catholics). I sorta hope that he finds all three in the seats next to him on his rapture bus! As a surprise.
 
I reckon you’re right about the surprises…the most surprised will be those who are so full of pious certainty about who is and is not “saved”.
I had an exchange with a guy who believes his ticket to heaven is assured and he’ll go straight there when he dies (or when the rapture comes)…obviously not a catholic. He hates Muslims and Jews (and Catholics). I sorta hope that he finds all three in the seats next to him on his rapture bus! As a surprise.
Yeah, especially about the “is not” ones.

It is really sad that some of those that think they have the highest opinions of God seem to have the lowest opinions of God in that the “God” of their “conception” is quite horrible.

I don’t know if “opinions” is quite the right word but I hope you see what I am trying to say.

God has all of the bases covered so that all will make it home.

What is really a shame is not so much that so many don’t seem to believe this but that so many don’t seem to even want this to be.

The absolute lack of concern of some people’s “conception” of those in heaven toward those in hell is to me quite mind-boggling and makes it sound as if the heaven of their “conception” is quite hellish and self-centered and totally lacking in human empathy much less Divine empathy.
 
God has all of the bases covered so that all will make it home.

What is really a shame is not so much that so many don’t seem to believe this but that so many don’t seem to even want this to be.
No. You’re still completely wrong. You’re making God a tyrant who forces His love onto all His creation instead of a loving Father who radically respects the freedom of His creation even to the point of their own self-destruction. Love must be chosen freely or it is not true love but forced coercion.

God will NOT force salvation onto people who refuse it and who refuse to obey His truth and goodness.

It’s utterly absurd and offensive to mischaracterize people like myself who absolutely want everyone to be saved but at the same time, with God, accept the fact that NOT all want to be saved.

By insisting that all are saved you are denying human nature by denying free will. God is not a spiritual rapist but a gentleman, and we must be free to turn Him down. And if our souls at death enter into eternity in that state, after there is no more time for change or repentance, then we must endure the identity that WE have chosen eternally.

Even if after death what if one still refuses, even a family member of a beloved friend? If we are always free, we can always refuse. If it becomes necessary that we accept God, that acceptance becomes unfree.

What you are saying is that after death human beings loose their own nature or essence.

From C.S. Lewis:
"If the happiness of a creature lies in (free) self-surrender, no one can make that surrender but himself, though many can help him to make it, and he may refuse. ** I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, ‘All will be saved.’ But then my reason retorts, ‘with their will or without it?’ If I say ‘Without their will,’ I at once perceive a contradiction: how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say, ‘With their will,’ my reason replies, ‘How if they** will not** give in?’
In the long run the answer to all who object to the doctrine of hell is itself a question:** “What are you asking God to do?”** To wipe out their past sins, and at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help? ** But He has already done so, on Calvary. ** To forgive them? ** They* will*** not to be forgiven.

To leave them alone? Alas, I am afraid that is what He does."
(C.S. Lewis, “The Problem of Pain”, chpt 8, “Hell”)

God practices what He preaches: love the sinner and hate the sin. The reprobate are those who refuse to dissociate themselves from their sins by repenting. And every sin must meet it’s necessary fate: exclusion from heaven. If we glue ourselves to our sins we glue ourselves to that fate.

This is just a fact that even Christ testified to. Universal salvation is not in accordance with the truth.
The absolute lack of concern of some people’s “conception” of those in heaven toward those in hell is to me quite mind-boggling and makes it sound as if the heaven of their “conception” is quite hellish and self-centered and totally lacking in human empathy much less Divine empathy.
Another absurd and ridiculous remark which is also ignorant to the effect that sin has on a person’s soul.

Christ specifically said, “those who commit sin make themselves a slave to sin.”(John 8:34).

There are also several parables where Jesus refers to those who show up too late to repentance(meaning that they died without accepting the gift of salvation), “I never knew you.” He does not know and see and worry about the damned. This cannot be divine ignorance because of the fact of God’s omniscience. It is fact because the damned have lost their true reality. Though they exist, they are not in heaven, and heaven is the standard of all reality. The closer to heaven you are, the more real you are; the farther from heaven, the less real. The reprobate are like ashes, not like wood.

The blessed in heaven do not mourn over what the reprobate once were-real wood, real men and women-because they do not live in the past.

In heaven we will be more like God, not less. Can one reprobate soul in hell destroy God’s joy for eternity? Does the existence of Satan or his angels, which are also His children, rob God of His joy? Can either they or we blackmail God? No.

Therefore however it is done, it is done: the divine joy, which we shall imitate, or in which we shall participate, will not be disturbed by hell. And it cannot be because of ignorance or lack of love, since God is all knowing and all loving.

Those who wind up in hell have abandoned any and all personal identity. They are no longer distinguishable from their sin that they refuse to be parted from.

1)God who is love wants lovers who love Him freely, not by force.

2)True, God is perfect mercy and forgiveness. But lets be clear about what that means. Forgiveness appeals to freedom, it must be freely given AND freely accepted, like any gift. If we do not REPENT and ask for forgiveness, we do not receive it-not because God holds it back but because WE HOLD OURSELVES BACK.
3) God’s love us also truthful. Love is NOT blind; love is accurate. God’s love is utterly realistic. It is reality itself; in a sense there is nothing else. The room you are sitting in is God’s love in the form and limits of a room. Thus all that refuse God’s love refuse reality, and there is no alternative to reality except “outer darkness”.

Those are the facts.**
 
On your first point, quite so. Since I don’t know you, I was asking to ascertain whether you were one of those who claims to be able to name names or make her/his own judgements about who they think is in Hell.

On your second point, which sounds like some kind of unnecessary challenge, there was no intention of digressing, and I am not sure what “infallible” teaching you’re referring to.
The Church teaches infallibly that a person who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and that there is no chance AFTER death to change your mind and repent.
Reading back through all your posts I got the impression you did not agree with that. If my impression is incorrect then you have my apologies.
 
The Church teaches infallibly that a person who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and that there is no chance AFTER death to change your mind and repent.
Reading back through all your posts I got the impression you did not agree with that. If my impression is incorrect then you have my apologies.
Hi Thistle : I agree with what you said but when do death exactly occurs, nobody knows because only God knows what Divine justice is. Maybe we’re dead when our heart stops or maybe when there is no brain activity or maybe a few seconds after those 2 occurrences or maybe when we see the light at the end of the tunnel or maybe… Nobody really knows but one thing for sure, our guardian angels will fight hard for us up to the last moment before we die. Non-believers can be converted before they die because they have guardian angels too and not only us, R. Catholics.😉
 
Hi Thistle : I agree with what you said but when do death exactly occurs, nobody knows because only God knows what Divine justice is. Maybe we’re dead when our heart stops or maybe when there is no brain activity or maybe a few seconds after those 2 occurrences or maybe when we see the light at the end of the tunnel or maybe… Nobody really knows but one thing for sure, our guardian angels will fight hard for us up to the last moment before we die. Non-believers can be converted before they die because they have guardian angels too and not only us, R. Catholics.😉
Guardian angels do not “fight for us” in regards to our salvation. They are ministering spirits sent by God to aid us to do His will. They are NOT our mediators before God, Christ is.

And the angels can no more violate free will than God can. To be saved requires our VOLUNTARY FREE ACT OF SELF-SURRENDER to God. Even if the angels were our advocates before God(which they’re not), their words cannot change the choice we have made to refuse to be saved.

Secondly God, by His eternal providence and omniscience, already knows which of His children will choose heaven and which ones will refuse it.

So its a safe bet that the angels at the point of an individual’s death know this as well.

In any case, you’re mistaken.

Divine justice has already been satisfied by Jesus at Calvary. He gets the justice, we get the mercy, ONLY if we accept it.

Refusal to accept Christ either explicitly through the Gospel or implicitly by Natural Law, necessarily means the loss of salvation. Period.

All of this is in the Catechism. Instead of making false statements and assumptions based upon your limited understanding of theology I suggest you go and actually read what the Church actually has to say on the matter. You have a responsibility to properly form your conscience according to the truth, not only according to your own opinions.

And you run the risk of committing scandal by misinforming others based on your false understandings, no matter how well intended.
 
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