Hell

[Usagi]

Well said.

Thanks, but I was actually disagreeing with you.

 

[Amandil]

As far as “There will be no changing of minds or wills in eternity becaused the blessed will not want to, nor will the reprobate want to”, how do you “know”?

Already explained…

 

[MacQ]

Thanks, but I was actually disagreeing with you.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me.

 

[Amandil]

Yes…that’s all fine. Especially since it doesn’t imply that this is immediate and irrevocable at the point of physical earthly death, as some have implied. That’s what I had an issue with.

I’m sorry if I didn’t make it clear, but yes, it is immediate and irrevocable at the point of death.

There aren’t going to be any “point of death conversions”. How we lived on earth is precisely how we are going to enter into eternity. It’s the reason why the Church offers last rights, or viaticum, to those who are dying.

Its the sin of presumption to assume that God owes you or anyone some final chance to convert after death. We’re given our time on earth as a pure gift to spend for that end, to choose the good over the profane. If we spend it wastefully on ourselves, then thats our fault, not His.

 

[TRH1292]

The Catholic Church teaches that we cannot know what a soul’s judgment at death might be, not that we do not know when it occurs.

It is Catholic dogma that a soul dying in unrepentant mortal sin is damned for eternity. The hope for an empty hell is based on the belief that God extends to every soul the grace necessary to repent before that happens and the hope that no one refuses that grace. It is not based on turning Hell into a second Purgatory where you can get out after awhile.

So, yes, if Blessed John Paul II hoped for an empty hell, he hoped that no one truly passed beyond death without repenting. Which is certainly possible and within God’s power, but by no means certain.

Usagi

Ja!

 

[bedan_elite]

Do you think that Jesus merely went to the “abode of the dead” (the good dead is how some seem to think of the abode of the dead) or to hell?

Something to think about: If Jesus took everyone’s sin upon Himself on the cross and as it is written that He “paid the ransom”, wouldn’t “descended into hell” mean exactly what it seems to say?

God did more than some seem to think God even capable of doing or even wanting to do for His Creation, sometimes the more that we “try to explain all of the details” the “smaller” that we make God.

God cares for ALL, maybe the lest that we can do, is to pray for ALL.

By the way, the analogy in the bible about hell being “sheol” is quite appropriate since it is the garbage dump and hell is “experiencing” our “garbage and the ramifications of our garbage”, in other words, we built our own hell and send ourself there.

God “won” the keys to the netherworld (hell and spiritual death) and as He told us the “mission” of His Church is that, “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.[5]

 

[Amandil]

Amandil

You wrote, “The Catholic Church teaches predestination.What the Catholic Church doesn’t teach and rejects is double predestination(Calvinism).”

Do you know what double-predestination is?

Are you saying that the Catholic Church teaches that God is only partly Omniscient?

No.

“Predestination” to me means that God knows people’s “destination” not that God slung some here and some there, are you saying that God knows the destination of some and not others?

Predestination does not mean that “God slung some here and some there”. God doesn’t “slung” people anywhere.

Predestination means that God knows which people, by virtue of divine providence in accordance will their free decisions, are going to be in heaven and which will not.

God’s grace is not irresistable(Calvinism), we are all given sufficient grace to recognize God and to either choose Him or choose self-love/will.

You also wrote, “God extends mercy to us here on earth because as Christ said on the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” God’s mercy is for us because we were deceived in our ignorance.”

Did you ever notice that when Jesus said “them” in “Father, forgive them…”, that there is no asterisk after them?

Ever thought that this “them” could be all of us and not just those physically present at the crucifixion?

You’re confusing Redemption with Salvation, which a common protestant mistake. The Father forgives us through the covenant between Him and Jesus grounded in Christ’s sacrifice.

Our covenent as the Bride of Christ only creates a relationship with the Father through Christ; our covenant is specifically with Christ through Baptism and our participation with the sacraments(these are separate covenants). That is the only certain way we can know we have access to the Father’s forgiveness, by being “one flesh” with the Son. The Gift has been offered to all.

Those who presistently reject God’s love and mercy through Christ are by definition denying Him. They reject the Gift offered.

That’s the thing with any gift; there is the act of offering, there must also be the act of acceptance. God does not force the Gift upon people, and not everyone will accept it. That’s just a simple fact. Those who reject it into eternity will not change their mind, becaue God will not change to accomodate their self-love/self-will. Thus they choose hell, God does not “slung” them there.

You then wrote, "You may say that that is insane. It is; sin is spiritual insanity. Sin is our attempt to substitute Reality with un-reality. We all do it at one point or another.?

Are you saying that God is incapable of “curing” insanity, be it spiritual or physical?

People have to WANT to be cured. It’s a conscious insanity. Again, people have sufficient grace from God to choose God, they just don’t want to(Romans 1:18-32).

Those in hell will not WANT to be cured, as I already explained.

 

[Amandil]

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.[5]

You should be careful taking and interpreting human descriptions of spiritual visions in an overly literalist manner. Visions are like parables, God communicates spiritual realities to us in ways that we can understand by our own limited ability to perceive, like any good teacher. The visions are/were to demonstrate visually the true horror of hell in a way that they could understand. The horror and deprivation of all light, goodness, beauty, and truth; the hoplessness and torment of the condemned, that is what the vision was meant to convey, not the idea the hell resides a few miles below us under the crust of the earth.

 

[MacQ]

I’m sorry if I didn’t make it clear, but yes, it is immediate and irrevocable at the point of death.

There aren’t going to be any “point of death conversions”. How we lived on earth is precisely how we are going to enter into eternity. It’s the reason why the Church offers last rights, or viaticum, to those who are dying.

Its the sin of presumption to assume that God owes you or anyone some final chance to convert after death. We’re given our time on earth as a pure gift to spend for that end, to choose the good over the profane. If we spend it wastefully on ourselves, then thats our fault, not His.

No one said anything about God “owing” us…or even hinted at that notion… so I am not sure why you introduced it. Let us not twist words.

The Church does allow for the FACT that there are people who die without ever having been introduced to Jesus Christ…catholics who die without viaticum…all sorts of possibilities, which are left to a reliance on God’s mercy and judgement alone, not ours.

Seems quite “presumptive” to me for mere men to think they know what happens “at point of death”. As if God’s time has anything to do with our limited knowledge of time.

 

[Amandil]

No one said anything about God “owing” us…or even hinted at that notion… so I am not sure why you introduced it. Let us not twist words.

The Church does allow for the FACT that there are people who die without ever having been introduced to Jesus Christ…catholics who die without viaticum…all sorts of possibilities, which are left to a reliance on God’s mercy and judgement alone, not ours.

You mustn’t confuse invincible ignorance with willful ignorance. I never said that the Church doesn’t allow for God’s mercy in those who have never had the opprotunity to enter into the covenant with God and would have. That’s not the issue.

The issue is that there appears to be some suggestion that people once in hell can and will “change their minds” and be allowed into heaven. This is simply not true.

Those predestined by their own free will for hell will end up in hell, sent there by their own choice, not by God. And they will eternally remain there because they refuse to give up self-love/self-will and will hate God because He specifically stands for the fact that they must do so.

Those predestined for blessedness in heaven by their own free will end up in heaven, and will never ever sin again, because they will know the full ugliness of sin.

Those are irrefutable facts of Faith.

Seems quite “presumptive” to me for mere men to think they know what happens “at point of death”. As if God’s time has anything to do with our limited knowledge of time.

God doesn’t live in “time”-time is what we use to measure change. There is no change in God’s eternity. There is no “time” in God’s eternity. God’s eternity encapsulates all of time and He simultaneously sees all points of time as “present”, as they are actually happening.

And it’s no more “presumptive” than recognizing that a divine being personally loves His creation. Don’t you remember the iintroduction to the “Our Father” when the priest proclaims, “…and informed by divine teaching we dare to say…”

We know because its been revealed. Its an article of Faith. And it accords with right reason and common sense.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Do you know what double-predestination is?

No.

Predestination does not mean that “God slung some here and some there”. God doesn’t “slung” people anywhere.

Predestination means that God knows which people, by virtue of divine providence in accordance will their free decisions, are going to be in heaven and which will not.

God’s grace is not irresistable(Calvinism), we are all given sufficient grace to recognize God and to either choose Him or choose self-love/will.

You’re confusing Redemption with Salvation, which a common protestant mistake. The Father forgives us through the covenant between Him and Jesus grounded in Christ’s sacrifice.

Our covenent as the Bride of Christ only creates a relationship with the Father through Christ; our covenant is specifically with Christ through Baptism and our participation with the sacraments(these are separate covenants). That is the only certain way we can know we have access to the Father’s forgiveness, by being “one flesh” with the Son. The Gift has been offered to all.

Those who presistently reject God’s love and mercy through Christ are by definition denying Him. They reject the Gift offered.

That’s the thing with any gift; there is the act of offering, there must also be the act of acceptance. God does not force the Gift upon people, and not everyone will accept it. That’s just a simple fact. Those who reject it into eternity will not change their mind, becaue God will not change to accomodate their self-love/self-will. Thus they choose hell, God does not “slung” them there.

People have to WANT to be cured. It’s a conscious insanity. Again, people have sufficient grace from God to choose God, they just don’t want to(Romans 1:18-32).

Those in hell will not WANT to be cured, as I already explained.

Ever thought that God just might know more than you?

You seem to think that you have everything about God and hell all figured out, ever thought that you just might not be correct?

Ever thought or hoped that God’s Plan is or could be catholic?

Ever meet Dad?

Do you realize that Love is NOT an attribute of God but Is God’s Very Being?

Do you consider God’s covenant with us thru God and us or thru God and God?

Ever been to hell?

If not, than how do you know?

God has a Plan and has had a Plan since before creation and I trust God that God’s Plan truly is GOOD NEWS, don’t know the details but don’t need to know the details.

 

[thistle]

That seems closer to fundamental protestantism than to catholicism…

This is an infallible teaching of the Church which you as a Catholic are obliged to believe.

 

[Amandil]

Ever thought that God just might know more than you?

I have no doubt that He does. But that’s not the issue here.

We’re discussing things that have already been revealed through the Church. So your question really is irrelevent and seems more like a personal rhetorical attack.

You seem to think that you have everything about God and hell all figured out, ever thought that you just might not be correct?

These things I type are not the result of me having them “all figured out”. They are revealed truths of the Faith, revealed by the Church.

Again, this seems more like a personal attack because you find the teaching of the Church objectionable.

I’m sorry that you feel that way. I can only speculate as to why you hope for some chance after death for whoever to convert, which I refuse to do here.

What I know for certain is that hell is true, and it is eternal, de fide.
Those in hell are eternally lost, de fide.

Ever thought or hoped that God’s Plan is or could be catholic?

Maybe my tag next to my screen name is not clear, but you do realize that I’m Catholic, don’t you?

Ever meet Dad?

I’m having trouble even understanding the point of this question.

Do you realize that Love is NOT an attribute of God but Is God’s Very Being?

I beg to differ. Scripture says “God is love”. If you reversed those words and said," therefore love is God," you would be terribly incorrect. You would be deifying human love.

God is Reality, God is the source of all Reality. Love is what God does, but it is not His essence or His true being, which is Being itself. God loves because love is true and beautiful.

Love, truth, and beauty have their source in God, but love, truth, and beauty are not God. God wholly transcends them.

Therefore love is an attribute of God, not God’s very being.

Do you consider God’s covenant with us thru God and us or thru God and God?

The New covenant is with God through Christ," for there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which men can be saved."

If anyone is saved, they are saved through Christ and only through Christ. Consequently the Church is the Body of Christ, that is why the Church is instrumental to the salvation of men.

Ever been to hell?
If not, than how do you know?

That’s called a non-sequitur.

No, I haven’t been to hell. But I’ve never had cancer either, that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for me to know the effects of cancer, how evil cancer is, and how it destroys a human person.

Jesus while He was on earth had never been to the hell of the damned, it didn’t stop Him from preaching about it’s evil eternal torment.

God has a Plan and has had a Plan since before creation and I trust God that God’s Plan truly is GOOD NEWS, don’t know the details but don’t need to know the details.

That’s great for you. I’m glad that you have that perspective.

But neither should you criticize me because I spent no small amount of time reading the teachings of the Chruch fathers and pondering these and many other things in my faith journey.

But I also ask you to ask yourself is it really fair to criticize me for seeking and knowing these things for which you have made the choice not to know, secure in your faith as you are?

And is it fair to attack me for revealing things to you that you asked about?

Is it fair to attack the messenger just for explaining the truth?

 

[TRH1292]

I do not understand why people respond to the clear teaching of the Church with accusations of arrogance or of being a know it all. None of us know anything of ourselves. That is why the Church is there.

 

[Amandil]

I do not understand why people respond to the clear teaching of the Church with accusations of arrogance or of being a know it all. None of us know anything of ourselves. That is why the Church is there.

Its because they think our words are subjective opinions coming from the individual saying them and not objective truth.

For others it reveals a fear over their own sinfulness in their lives(e.g. people who know they lie often have severe reactions towards those whom they either know or assume to know have deceived them).

When Christ proclaimed the truth He often faced emotional and violent reactions because His truth proclaimed in their hearing caused a sinful habit to become manifest, like a doctor opening a wound. It hardened those who wanted it to remain hidden, but caused repentance for those who wanted to be healed.

That’s what the truth does.

 

[thistle]

I do not understand why people respond to the clear teaching of the Church with accusations of arrogance or of being a know it all. None of us know anything of ourselves. That is why the Church is there.

I agree. At least we might understand if that was the attitude of a non-Catholic but for a Catholic to take that position is putting themselves above the Church and God who stands behind the teachings of the Church.

 

[bedan_elite]

I hope this is sarcasm. Because I’m pretty sure that this is at least heterodox and not taught by the Church.

Amandil : It’s not sarcasm. The battle between good and evil for a person is fiercest at the point of death and it’s really up to the dying person to choose between the 2. Protestants believe that a person’s reward in heaven is the same as anyone else whether you’re a martyr or a pardoned criminal. They don’t believe in purgatory. Why is it so hard for you to believe that our merciful Father in heaven loves everybody regardless of what kind of life we lived? Isn’t that what Jesus said in the Gospels, love everyone, even your enemies?

 

[bedan_elite]

We cannot change our minds after death. The Church teaching is clear on this. Our destination (damned or saved) is determined by the state of our soul at death and we then go immediately to Hell or are saved (Purgatory first or straight to Heaven).

Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin is NOT able to repent and change their mind after they die. Its too late. Repentance must come before death.

My opinion…God’s infinite mercy is extended to everybody even up to the last seconds of his life but acceptance of Christ as one’s saviour and repentance is required to be absolved of his sins. After that, we get cleansed in purgatory, for how long, we don’t know…

 

[bedan_elite]

I have no doubt that He does. But that’s not the issue here.

We’re discussing things that have already been revealed through the Church. So your question really is irrelevent and seems more like a personal rhetorical attack.

These things I type are not the result of me having them “all figured out”. They are revealed truths of the Faith, revealed by the Church.

Again, this seems more like a personal attack because you find the teaching of the Church objectionable.

I’m sorry that you feel that way. I can only speculate as to why you hope for some chance after death for whoever to convert, which I refuse to do here.

What I know for certain is that hell is true, and it is eternal, de fide.
Those in hell are eternally lost, de fide.

Maybe my tag next to my screen name is not clear, but you do realize that I’m Catholic, don’t you?

I’m having trouble even understanding the point of this question.

I beg to differ. Scripture says “God is love”. If you reversed those words and said," therefore love is God," you would be terribly incorrect. You would be deifying human love.

God is Reality, God is the source of all Reality. Love is what God does, but it is not His essence or His true being, which is Being itself. God loves because love is true and beautiful.

Love, truth, and beauty have their source in God, but love, truth, and beauty are not God. God wholly transcends them.

Therefore love is an attribute of God, not God’s very being.

The New covenant is with God through Christ," for there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which men can be saved."

If anyone is saved, they are saved through Christ and only through Christ. Consequently the Church is the Body of Christ, that is why the Church is instrumental to the salvation of men.

That’s called a non-sequitur.

No, I haven’t been to hell. But I’ve never had cancer either, that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for me to know the effects of cancer, how evil cancer is, and how it destroys a human person.

Jesus while He was on earth had never been to the hell of the damned, it didn’t stop Him from preaching about it’s evil eternal torment.

That’s great for you. I’m glad that you have that perspective.

But neither should you criticize me because I spent no small amount of time reading the teachings of the Chruch fathers and pondering these and many other things in my faith journey.

But I also ask you to ask yourself is it really fair to criticize me for seeking and knowing these things for which you have made the choice not to know, secure in your faith as you are?

And is it fair to attack me for revealing things to you that you asked about?

Is it fair to attack the messenger just for explaining the truth?

 

[bedan_elite]

bedan_elite:
Seriously Amandil, you need to relax. Man’s greatest intelligence is just foolishness to Him and I believe you know that… Peace brother