Hell

[Amandil]

Seriously Amandil, you need to relax. Man’s greatest intelligence is just foolishness to Him and I believe you know that… Peace brother

How do you know that I’m not already “relaxed”?

Do you find frank and declaritive statements threatening?

And again we’re not talking about “man’s intelligence” but revealed truths of the Faith.

It’s also very telling when people veil insults by ripping Scripture out of context as if Scripture makes it automatically meaningful.

 

[bedan_elite]

Does Heaven, then, exist in outer space? I doubt that any of the Christian afterlives exist in the universe as we know it.

The Apostles’ Creed says that Jesus descended into Hades, the place of the dead. It’s a way of emphasizing that He really did die the same way we do, against heretics who could not believe that God would really stoop so low. It doesn’t have anything to do with His having gone to a specific place inside the earth. (The realm of the dead is traditionally “down” because we tend to bury the dead in the earth, the same way the realm of God/the gods is traditionally “up” because the sky and the celestial realms beyond are places humans traditionally could not venture and from which such divine gifts as sun and rain come.)

Usagi

hi Usagi : As Catholics, we believe that our Lord ascended into heaven in both body & soul. Same is true with our Blessed Mother, the Assumption. Even Elijah and possibly some other prophets also went to heaven with their mortal bodies. What about the incorruptible bodies of saints? I believe they will all rise up on judgement day but I don’t think their bodies will be destroyed after that. I think they will also go to the new heavens too. These are the reasons why I believe heaven & hell are physical places somewhere in the universe. Everything I say here is just my opinion and I don’t claim that my opinion is right. I also don’t tell people they are wrong. I’m just a regular person who tries so hard to respect others’ opinions whether it’s a grand slam or plain foolishness.

 

[Amandil]

Amandil : Its not sarcasm. The battle between good and evil for a person is fiercest at the point of death and it’s really up to the dying person to choose between the 2.

That’s not what you said. You said that “everyone regardless of creed is absolved from sin at the point of death”.

The Church does NOT teach this. It is a heterodox opinion. I suggest that you go back and read the Catechism.

Protestants believe that a person’s reward in heaven is the same as anyone else whether you’re a martyr or a pardoned criminal. They don’t believe in purgatory.

And protestantism is a heretical doctrine. Religious truths aren’t subject to yours or anyone else’s personal opinion. Purgatory is true whether they believe it or not. So your point here is moot.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that our merciful Father in heaven loves everybody regardless of what kind of life we lived? Isn’t that what Jesus said in the Gospels, love everyone, even your enemies?

Why is so hard for you to believe that God’s love ** is the very source of torment for the damned in hell?**

With all due respect, you seem very naive and not very knowledgeable about the real evil and the very real consequences that result from sin.

The very same Christ who said “love your enemies” is the One who said, “whoever blasphemous against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

St. Augustine said, "Do not mistake these sins which we call ‘light’: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap."

Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitance and eternal loss (of salvation).

CCC 1864

 

[Amandil]

Bedan, I suggest that you go back and read the Catechism, numbers 1033-1037 & 1861 as well.

These are not opinions but objects of faith which we are required to believe.

Religion is not an exercise in subjectivism, we don’t get to decide for ourselves what’s true or not true, nobody is entitled to believe in error. We are required to conform ourselves and our minds to the truths of Faith, that’s what a properly formed conscience is.

 

[bedan_elite]

That’s not what you said. You said that “everyone regardless of creed is absolved from sin at the point of death”.

The Church does NOT teach this. It is a heterodox opinion. I suggest that you go back and read the Catechism.

And protestantism is a heretical doctrine. Religious truths aren’t subject to yours or anyone else’s personal opinion. Purgatory is true whether they believe it or not. So your point here is moot.

Why is so hard for you to believe that God’s love ** is the very source of torment for the damned in hell?**

With all due respect, you seem very naive and not very knowledgeable about the real evil and the very real consequences that result from sin.

The very same Christ who said “love your enemies” is the One who said, “whoever blasphemous against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

St. Augustine said, "Do not mistake these sins which we call ‘light’: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap."

Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitance and eternal loss (of salvation).

CCC 1864

You sound like a very intelligent person but a bit rude and angry. Are you ok? Again I will say to you, peace brother.

 

[bedan_elite]

I do not understand why people respond to the clear teaching of the Church with accusations of arrogance or of being a know it all. None of us know anything of ourselves. That is why the Church is there.

I hear you sister…Too many smart people here. Sometimes I doubt these people are Catholics

 

[Amandil]

You sound like a very intelligent person but a bit rude and angry. Are you ok? Again I will say to you, peace brother.

And that’s called an ad-hominum.

(Sigh)…you are obviously not accustomed to debate or having your opinion challenged.

Its insulting to say the least to assume things about people that you don’t know. So to say that someone is “rude and angry” because they are contradicting you is rather disingenuous.

I don’t understand how you can determine how I “sound” because you are reading words, not hearing speech.

Again, if frank statements and pointed questions are somehow threatening to you maybe you should bow out now.

Or you can be an adult and we can have a serious discussion about serious things like the truths of the Faith.

 

[Amandil]

Never mind.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Amandil

You wrote, “What I know for certain is that hell is true, and it is eternal, de fide. Those in hell are eternally lost, de fide.”

How do you “know for certain” that hell is real?

Is it because someone told you that it is real and you must believe it or that you have been there, so to speak?

If it is because someone told you that you must believe it than you don’t know for certain, you believe, you may even believe this fervently but nevertheless, it is something that you believe, it is not something that you “know”.

Believing and knowing do NOT mean the same thing.

You then wrote, “Maybe my tag next to my screen name is not clear, but you do realize that I’m Catholic, don’t you?” to my question “Ever thought or hoped that God’s Plan is or could be catholic?”

If you notice, I wrote catholic with a small c and I wrote it that way on purpose, it is not a typo.

You then wrote, “I’m having trouble even understanding the point of this question.” to my question “Ever meet Dad?”

I was referring to God the Father and it was Jesus Who said to think of/call upon/refer to God the Father as Abba which translates as Dad or Daddy.

You also wrote, “I beg to differ. Scripture says “God is love”. If you reversed those words and said,” therefore love is God," you would be terribly incorrect. You would be deifying human love.

God is Reality, God is the source of all Reality. Love is what God does, but it is not His essence or His true being, which is Being itself. God loves because love is true and beautiful.

Love, truth, and beauty have their source in God, but love, truth, and beauty are not God. God wholly transcends them.

Therefore love is an attribute of God, not God’s very being."

You can “beg to differ” all you want but when I met God the Father, I came to the realization that what I was taught in second grade that “God Is Love” is quite literally true and that everything else about God emanates from this “fact”.

Ever heard of God referred to as a “Consuming Fire of Love”?

This “Consuming Fire of Love” can burn or caress.

You wrote, “That’s called a non-sequitur. No, I haven’t been to hell. But I’ve never had cancer either, that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for me to know the effects of cancer, how evil cancer is, and how it destroys a human person. Jesus while He was on earth had never been to the hell of the damned, it didn’t stop Him from preaching about it’s evil eternal torment.” to my questions “Ever been to hell? If not, than how do you know?”

I have experienced hell and I don’t for an instant believe that Jesus experience less, actually He experienced much more in that He paid EVERYONE’S RANSOM, by His “work” on the cross, as I said a “Consuming Fire of Love” can burn or caress.

I pretty much only take one thing seriously and that is the “job” that God gave me and I do not consider this “job” as “my job” but as “Our job”, God and me.

You should follow God how you think you should follow God but I am here to tell the world that God’s Plan is catholic, small c catholic, I don’t know the details but I stake absolutely everything on God having a Plan that is truly worth being thankful for.

I am no theologian, I am no bible scholar, I am no philosopher, I am merely someone who has been told by God that “only I can say it”, and I wasn’t even told by God what “it” was, that is one of the reasons why I have said many times that among other things God is NOT the big dictation machine in the sky.

I sought forgiveness and God found me, so to speak, or more accurately, revealed to me some things.

I did not ask for this “job” but I have said YES.

 

[bedan_elite]

And that’s called an ad-hominum.

(Sigh)…you are obviously not accustomed to debate or having your opinion challenged.

Its insulting to say the least to assume things about people that you don’t know. So to say that someone is “rude and angry” because they are contradicting you is rather disingenuous.

I don’t understand how you can determine how I “sound” because you are reading words, not hearing speech.

Again, if frank statements and pointed questions are somehow threatening to you maybe you should bow out now.

Or you can be an adult and we can have a serious discussion about serious things like the truths of the Faith.

Peace brother. Peace.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Amandil

You wrote, “The very same Christ who said “love your enemies” is the One who said, “whoever blasphemous against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.””

And when He said that, did He not also say that “ALL SINS EXCEPT THAT WOULD BE FORGIVEN”?

Maybe we should pray and pray hard for the one or ones that most need our prayers even if we do not personally know who they are.

 

[bedan_elite]

Do you think that Jesus merely went to the “abode of the dead” (the good dead is how some seem to think of the abode of the dead) or to hell?

Something to think about: If Jesus took everyone’s sin upon Himself on the cross and as it is written that He “paid the ransom”, wouldn’t “descended into hell” mean exactly what it seems to say?

God did more than some seem to think God even capable of doing or even wanting to do for His Creation, sometimes the more that we “try to explain all of the details” the “smaller” that we make God.

God cares for ALL, maybe the lest that we can do, is to pray for ALL.

By the way, the analogy in the bible about hell being “sheol” is quite appropriate since it is the garbage dump and hell is “experiencing” our “garbage and the ramifications of our garbage”, in other words, we built our own hell and send ourself there.

God “won” the keys to the netherworld (hell and spiritual death) and as He told us the “mission” of His Church is that, “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”

Honestly, I like what you said and how you said it, very gentle. Thanks.

 

[MacQ]

Amandil : It’s not sarcasm. The battle between good and evil for a person is fiercest at the point of death and it’s really up to the dying person to choose between the 2. Protestants believe that a person’s reward in heaven is the same as anyone else whether you’re a martyr or a pardoned criminal. They don’t believe in purgatory. Why is it so hard for you to believe that our merciful Father in heaven loves everybody regardless of what kind of life we lived? Isn’t that what Jesus said in the Gospels, love everyone, even your enemies?

Just a couple of points:
Protestants aren’t monolithic in their beliefs as you seem to suggest.
Secondly, you refer to “the dying person”…it would be fine if we all got some time beforehand on the proverbial deathbed, but that isn’t usually the case.

 

[MacQ]

This is an infallible teaching of the Church which you as a Catholic are obliged to believe.

So who is in Hell right now?

 

[bedan_elite]

Just a couple of points:
Protestants aren’t monolithic in their beliefs as you seem to suggest.
Secondly, you refer to “the dying person”…it would be fine if we all got some time beforehand on the proverbial deathbed, but that isn’t usually the case.

MacQ : Lately, scientists discovered that the human brain still functions 6 minutes after the heart stops… We consider death as when the heart stops or when there is no brain function but is that really the exact time of death and that a person should repent before that? If a person suddenly dies in a car accident, does that really mean he wasn’t given the opportunity to repent? Our loving Father will give us including the unbelievers the opportunity to accept Christ as our saviour before we die because He is all merciful. Maybe we will be given a few seconds after being declared clinically dead to repent. Nothing is impossible. BTW, this is only my opinion…

 

[Amandil]

Peace brother. Peace.

Do you even know how condescending that looks?

 

[Amandil]

Amandil

You wrote, “The very same Christ who said “love your enemies” is the One who said, “whoever blasphemous against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.””

And when He said that, did He not also say that “ALL SINS EXCEPT THAT WOULD BE FORGIVEN”?

Maybe we should pray and pray hard for the one or ones that most need our prayers even if we do not personally know who they are.

And what do think that unforgivable sin is, Tom?

Look it up, its in the catechism.

 

[Amandil]

Amandil

You wrote, “What I know for certain is that hell is true, and it is eternal, de fide. Those in hell are eternally lost, de fide.”

How do you “know for certain” that hell is real?

Is it because someone told you that it is real and you must believe it or that you have been there, so to speak?

If it is because someone told you that you must believe it than you don’t know for certain, you believe, you may even believe this fervently but nevertheless, it is something that you believe, it is not something that you “know”.

Believing and knowing do NOT mean the same thing.

You then wrote, “Maybe my tag next to my screen name is not clear, but you do realize that I’m Catholic, don’t you?” to my question “Ever thought or hoped that God’s Plan is or could be catholic?”

If you notice, I wrote catholic with a small c and I wrote it that way on purpose, it is not a typo.

You then wrote, “I’m having trouble even understanding the point of this question.” to my question “Ever meet Dad?”

I was referring to God the Father and it was Jesus Who said to think of/call upon/refer to God the Father as Abba which translates as Dad or Daddy.

You also wrote, “I beg to differ. Scripture says “God is love”. If you reversed those words and said,” therefore love is God," you would be terribly incorrect. You would be deifying human love.

God is Reality, God is the source of all Reality. Love is what God does, but it is not His essence or His true being, which is Being itself. God loves because love is true and beautiful.

Love, truth, and beauty have their source in God, but love, truth, and beauty are not God. God wholly transcends them.

Therefore love is an attribute of God, not God’s very being."

You can “beg to differ” all you want but when I met God the Father, I came to the realization that what I was taught in second grade that “God Is Love” is quite literally true and that everything else about God emanates from this “fact”.

Ever heard of God referred to as a “Consuming Fire of Love”?

This “Consuming Fire of Love” can burn or caress.

You wrote, “That’s called a non-sequitur. No, I haven’t been to hell. But I’ve never had cancer either, that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for me to know the effects of cancer, how evil cancer is, and how it destroys a human person. Jesus while He was on earth had never been to the hell of the damned, it didn’t stop Him from preaching about it’s evil eternal torment.” to my questions “Ever been to hell? If not, than how do you know?”

I have experienced hell and I don’t for an instant believe that Jesus experience less, actually He experienced much more in that He paid EVERYONE’S RANSOM, by His “work” on the cross, as I said a “Consuming Fire of Love” can burn or caress.

I pretty much only take one thing seriously and that is the “job” that God gave me and I do not consider this “job” as “my job” but as “Our job”, God and me.

You should follow God how you think you should follow God but I am here to tell the world that God’s Plan is catholic, small c catholic, I don’t know the details but I stake absolutely everything on God having a Plan that is truly worth being thankful for.

I am no theologian, I am no bible scholar, I am no philosopher, I am merely someone who has been told by God that “only I can say it”, and I wasn’t even told by God what “it” was, that is one of the reasons why I have said many times that among other things God is NOT the big dictation machine in the sky.

I sought forgiveness and God found me, so to speak, or more accurately, revealed to me some things.

I did not ask for this “job” but I have said YES.

Just a suggestion: if you’re going to go into long diatribes like this, please learn who to break up the quotes or use the quote tags, it makes it extremely difficult to even follow what you’re saying.

 

[bedan_elite]

Do you even know how condescending that looks?

My apologies if I’ve gotten into your nerves. What about this…peace and love to you brother.

 

[Amandil]

Secondly, that is for Tom, whatever private and subjective experiences you may have had, they cannot nor will not contradict public revelation.

1. How do I know that hell exists. Because Christ, who is God and cannot lie, said so.

You can play the “how do you know” game up to a point, Tom, but eventually you’re going to back up to what’s called self-evident truths.

Thirdly, belief, according to the Church (see JPII encyclical called “faith and reason”) is MORE certain knowledge.

I have things to do so I’ll get back to this later. I just wanted to make those points beforehand.