Hell

[thistle]

Actually, I reckon that very few die in a state of grace.
Are you implying that anyone who doesn’t goes to Hell?
What’s purgatory for then? Why bother to pray for the dead then?

The Church also teaches that WE cannot know exactly what state a person was in at the moment of death, and that only God knows and judges that. Presumably this implies that God is around after our death, and so is our soul.

That is correct. The Church teaches that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin (i.e. not in a state of grace) goes immediately to Hell.

As TRH1292 has pointed out to you Purgatory is for those who are saved (i.e. die in a state of grace).

 

[MacQ]

Yes, we cannot know the state of a persons soul when they die. I can not know if John Smith is in a state of Grace or a State of Mortal Sin. But, I do know that if John Smith dies in a state of Mortal Sin, that is, not in a state of Grace, he will descend into Hell.

Purgatory is for those who die in a state of grace, in God’s friendship, but are not perfectly purified.

Catholicism 101.

You are correct…I thought you were slipping into that area where men presume to judge others.
However, I should add that because the definition of mortal sin is quite narrow…you have known, it must have been willful when you were free to do otherwise… because GOD makes those judgements…and because we do not really know what happens immediately upon death, I will leave those things to be eschatologically verified.

 

[mikekle]

God’s mercy is perfect, not infinite. He is also perfectly just.

Why do you think a person was has rejected God in this life would change their mind, if they could (which I don’t believe they can) in the next?

Well, since we were given free will, we are allowed to exercise that at ANY time, who are we to say someone could not possibly change their mind after death…we dont know what goes on in the minds of others.

 

[mikekle]

MacQ, your idea of eternity seems to be time-based.

No. Time stops once we leave the physical world. There is only ‘now’ So the sinner in Hell cannot repent just as the devils cannot repent.
Time & Space as we know them, no longer exist. This is why we must repent while on the physical plan. Eternity like Infinity is impossible for the human mind to grasp. It does not mean eons & eons without end ( that is time-based). All one can say is that Eternity is a perpetual ‘now’.

For me its not hard to understand, it makes perfect sense, in the bible it mentions many times, Gods nature is eternal, everything he is and does is ‘based’ on eternity, not something temporary(especially as short as a humans earthly life span).

When God creates our souls at our conception, they are IMMORTAL, they dont just die after our bodies die, they continue on, so why would Gods grace or forgiveness stop at our earthly death? Why do we pray for people in hell…if it wasnt possible for God to save them? God can do ANYTHING and he does not exist ‘in time’, so everything is immortal to him, including our souls.

Plus, Ive never seen a verse that suggests our free will is only temporary, nor Gods forgiveness or saving grace, if it was, then God would not be the eternal being he is said to be.

I imagine if someone did live a un-Godly life and then dies, ends up in hell, it is quite possible, if enough people are praying for their souls, OR, they recognize their error of their ways and repent (ask God to be forgiven), and God would save them…however that is not saying there are those in hell that actually prefer it over being with God, those are the ones who truly desire Hell, but not everyone is like this.

Satan and the demons were not given all that man was given, so the same rules do not apply to them, I assume it is not possible they can repent, but I doubt they would even want to, plus, what Satan did was a bit worse than a human committing sins, satan actually wanted Gods position.

 

[thistle]

Well, since we were given free will, we are allowed to exercise that at ANY time, who are we to say someone could not possibly change their mind after death.…we dont know what goes on in the minds of others.

We cannot change our minds after death. The Church teaching is clear on this. Our destination (damned or saved) is determined by the state of our soul at death and we then go immediately to Hell or are saved (Purgatory first or straight to Heaven).

Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin is NOT able to repent and change their mind after they die. Its too late. Repentance must come before death.

 

[hu324b]

Thats a very Protestant view - most won’t pray for their dead - we are encouraged to pray for those who have died - why would we do this if our fate is seal at the moment of death - prayers are not needed - your fate is sealed your either going to heaven or your going to hell and all the prayers in the world will not change that if your right - so with that belief all prayer is useless for the who have passed on. So why do we do it - God won’t hear the prayers of the faithful for those who have died? Those who are going to heaven or will be going to heaven don’t need our prayers - they made the cut. There sure are a lot of Catholics wasting their time including me - I’m a palliative care volunteer and I pray for all those I come across no matter what their faith is - good or bad - so am I wasting my time? You’ll never convince me that I am.I will continue to pray to God for the salvation of all souls regardless.

An example would be a person who is catholic - never went to Church ( mortal sin) - lived a sinful life - yet we will have prayer services for them and spend hours praying for them and say masses for them - we all know someone who has passed away like that. So why do we do it?

I’ve been told by Baptists that what I am doing is a sin - that I am going to go to hell for praying for the dead.

I usually pray the Chaplet of Mercy and come here to ask for prayers and many people here help me in my prayers - I have faith that God will hear these prayers - I believe in the private revelation of divine mercy - so we are all wasting our time I guess. I guess prayer is only meant for the living.

Sorry I said I wouldn’t post here again on this thread again but I could not help it when I read someone is telling my my prayers are useless.

 

[Usagi]

Because we cannot know the state of any individual’s soul at death, we pray for all the dead. But the purpose of those prayers is to ease the passage through Purgatory, if it turns out that was the soul’s initial destination. It’s not possible to pray someone out of Hell, and of course there’s no need to pray for a saint in Heaven.

The only way the idea of a soul changing its mind in Hell would work with Church teaching is if the afterlife happens to fit the image put forth in Anglican writer C. S. Lewis’s The Great Divorce. In that book, Hell and Purgatory are pictured as the same physical reality, with the difference being the choices of each soul. It’s Purgatory for those who eventually choose to leave and seek Heaven, Hell for those who never do. I like the basic idea – that it’s never God keeping the damned in Hell, but rather themselves – but it’s certainly a departure from the traditional Christian idea of the afterlife, so I’m not sure how likely it is that Lewis “guessed right” in his fictional portrayal.

Usagi

 

[bedan_elite]

You know this how?
Seems a tad literal to me.

Hi MacQ : Apostle’s creed=…He descended into hell. On the 3rd day… Christ was on earth when He died and where else can he descend? In the gospel, Christ said that He saw Lucifer and his angels plunge down to earth. There are lots of divine revelations to saints regarding the location of hell and purgatory. Aren’t you wondering why the core of the earth is so hot aside from the scientific explanations taught in schools?

 

[bedan_elite]

In God’s infinite mercy, every person regardless of creed is absolved of his sins at the point of death but before we are pardoned, acceptance of Christ as our savior is required. God as a loving Father wants all of His children to be with Him in heaven no matter how bad we were on earth. That’s the reason why He also created Purgatory.

 

[Amandil]

In God’s infinite mercy, every person regardless of creed is absolved of his sins at the point of death but before we are pardoned, acceptance of Christ as our savior is required. God as a loving Father wants all of His children to be with Him in heaven no matter how bad we were on earth. That’s the reason why He also created Purgatory.

I hope this is sarcasm. Because I’m pretty sure that this is at least heterodox and not taught by the Church.

 

[Amandil]

God’s mercy is perfect, not infinite. He is also perfectly just.

Why do you think a person was has rejected God in this life would change their mind, if they could (which I don’t believe they can) in the next?

God’s mercy can’t be perfect if its not infinite.

It’s not that God’s mercy isn’t infinite, its that the reprobate eternally refuse it thus what is on God’s part infinite mercy offered to them is infinite punishment because of their full knowledge of the consequences of rejecting it.

 

[Amandil]

Well, since we were given free will, we are allowed to exercise that at ANY time, who are we to say someone could not possibly change their mind after death…we dont know what goes on in the minds of others.

We can be pretty certain that when we enter into eternity that we will not experience things the same way we do here.

Paul says here “we see but through a glass darkly” but then we will KNOW as we are known.

Our wills in eternity will be eternally set because we will know all the consequences that our choice made on earth, whether for God or against God, and God will eternally ratify that choice upon our death.

There will be no changing of minds or wills in eternity becaused the blessed will not want to, nor will the reprobate want to.

 

[bedan_elite]

Hell is real, it is a real possibility for everyone. All who die in a state of mortal sin will descend into hell. The horror of hell consists not in it being a terrible place, but being a terrible state. It is, of course, a place of outer darkness. But in a certain sense we will make the hell.

TRH1292 : If you are R. Catholic, you should keep in mind the 2nd secret of Fatima that was revealed by our Blessed Mother to the 3 children… The 3 children were taken to hell and they described what they saw and it was really terrifying, fires, souls and demons shrieking and bouncing all over…google it…

 

[MacQ]

We cannot change our minds after death. The Church teaching is clear on this. Our destination (damned or saved) is determined by the state of our soul at death and we then go immediately to Hell or are saved (Purgatory first or straight to Heaven).

Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin is NOT able to repent and change their mind after they die. Its too late. Repentance must come before death.

That seems closer to fundamental protestantism than to catholicism…

 

[TRH1292]

We can be pretty certain that when we enter into eternity that we will not experience things the same way we do here.

Paul says here “we see but through a glass darkly” but then we will KNOW as we are known.

**Our wills in eternity will be eternally set because we will know all the consequences that our choice made on earth, whether for God or against God, and God will eternally ratify that choice upon our death.

There will be no changing of minds or wills in eternity becaused the blessed will not want to, nor will the reprobate want to.**

Exactly.

 

[MacQ]

In God’s infinite mercy, every person regardless of creed is absolved of his sins at the point of death but before we are pardoned, acceptance of Christ as our savior is required. God as a loving Father wants all of His children to be with Him in heaven no matter how bad we were on earth. That’s the reason why He also created Purgatory.

God’s infinite mercy…yes.
A loving father who wants all his children with him…yes.

But the rest…sounds more like something you want to believe than what the Church teaches.

 

[TRH1292]

That seems closer to fundamental protestantism than to catholicism…

No it doesn’t, because that has been the position of the Church far before Protestantism existed in the first place. The Church defines what it is she believes.

 

[MacQ]

We can be pretty certain that when we enter into eternity that we will not experience things the same way we do here.

Paul says here “we see but through a glass darkly” but then we will KNOW as we are known.

**Our wills in eternity will be eternally set because we will know all the consequences that our choice made on earth, whether for God or against God, and God will eternally ratify that choice upon our death.

There will be no changing of minds or wills in eternity becaused the blessed will not want to, nor will the reprobate want to**.

So…a kind of predestination…and no second chances for reprobates?
Everything decided by your life on earth…no mercy beyond that?
Why pray for the dead?
Some protestant sects would agree with that…I think the Catholic Church and several Popes that I know of would disagree.

 

[TRH1292]

So…a kind of predestination…and no second chances for reprobates?
Everything decided by your life on earth…no mercy beyond that?
Why pray for the dead?
Some protestant sects would agree with that…I think the Catholic Church and several Popes that I know of would disagree.

We pray for the dead on the assumption that they are in Purgatory, and thus need our prayers. The Catholic Church has never taught people can escape the hell of the damned after death.

If you keep insisting on such hetrodoxy and claiming vaguely it has support, then you are going to have to cite your sources.

 

[MacQ]

Hi MacQ : Apostle’s creed=…He descended into hell. On the 3rd day… Christ was on earth when He died and where else can he descend? In the gospel, Christ said that He saw Lucifer and his angels plunge down to earth. There are lots of divine revelations to saints regarding the location of hell and purgatory. Aren’t you wondering why the core of the earth is so hot aside from the scientific explanations taught in schools?

Yes, as I said…seems to me you are making very literal interpretations.
Based on the word “descended” you assume that must mean the center of the earth.
Descent into hell doesn’t have to mean a physical trip.