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eddie_too
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Jesus says there is an unforgivable sin. He says that this unforgivable sin can not be forgiven in this world or in the world after our mortal deaths.
this begs the question, what does the bible say about how souls, who at the time of their last judgment reject God, will find repentance after that last judgment?
if hell has an ending, does heaven also have an ending.
it has been the constant teaching of the Church that eternal life and heaven are synonyms.
how does that comport with the idea the eternal life is only life for this Age?
this begs the question, what does the bible say about how souls, who at the time of their last judgment reject God, will find repentance after that last judgment?
if hell has an ending, does heaven also have an ending.
it has been the constant teaching of the Church that eternal life and heaven are synonyms.
how does that comport with the idea the eternal life is only life for this Age?
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laylow
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This is a good read. jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
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Tantum_ergo
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Just who IS this ‘Jeremy K Moritz’ anyway and why do his opinions trump the teachings of the Catholic Church (not to mention that he also acknowledges that the majority of “Christian” churches don’t support his opinions either?)
If I want to know what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation, and the ‘four last things’, there is a library right here at Catholic Answers which one can access, not to mention the catechism.
And frankly, why would I want to know what some ‘man in the street’ (however well-intentioned he or she might be) thinks, when that thinking is in opposition to the Church Christ left us?
Why should I disbelieve the Bible accounts on “Jeremy K. Moritz’’ deciding that ‘he’ can interpret Scripture ‘differently’? What makes his interpretation which discounts teachings 2000 years old ‘right’ and the others wrong? If he claims the authority of the Holy Spirit, why is it that the Holy Spirit, contrary to Biblical Truth, would be 'teaching against Himself”?
Seriously, laylow, stop trying to shop around to find something that you can ‘feel comfortable with’. Pope Francis himself told us to get out of the comfort zone, didn’t he?
Are you trying to conform to God’s will, even if it seems hard and wrong to you, or are you trying to put your own will in place, metaphorically speaking, and make God conform to your standards?
A wiser person than I once wrote something along this line, “If I can understand and feel comfortable with God’s teaching, then it isn’t really God’s teaching I’m listening to, but my own. . .”
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laylow
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I’m not shopping. When you read the scripture, I think it is impossible to say with absolute certainty that one side is absolutely correct. I believe that even saying so is against God. Easy has nothing to do with it. I would say that pretty much anyone who lives in the US with any wealth and does not suffer from a major debilitating condition is in grave danger and almost certainly damned to eternal torture and torment according to the teaching. Poverty is mentioned in the Bible almost 1000 times. Jesus mentioned that it would be almost impossible for a wealthy person to make it to Heaven. Compared to the rest of the world, almost everyone in the US is wealthy. I’m concerned that almost all Catholics choose to follow what that feel like. Have you sold all of your possessions and followed Jesus as he asked the rich man? If not, are you asking Jesus to lower his standards?
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thistle
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Sorry but that is a stupid comment.The Church does NOT teach that.
You sound like one of these Bible only people who take scripture out of context and put your own private interpretation on things.
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laylow
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Does the Church not teach perfect justice?
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NeedImprovement
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There’s an in-depth article by Acton Institute entitled Views of Wealth in the Bible and the Ancient World that’s worth looking at. Here’s a snippet from the article:
The reasoning which followed was: If even those whom God favoured could only make it to Heaven with great “difficulty”, how could anyone else ever succeed ?
Another of several things which would’ve made the disciples exclaim to Jesus, “Who then can be saved ?” , after He’d just told them that it would be difficult for those with riches to “enter the kingdom of Heaven” was: At that time, riches were considered to be a sign of favour from God.
The reasoning which followed was: If even those whom God favoured could only make it to Heaven with great “difficulty”, how could anyone else ever succeed ?
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laylow
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I would argue that deriving that Hell is eternal torture and torment is taking a few scriptures that seem to point to that possibility and ignore the overwhelmingly more which don’t and also the central theme of both the old and new testament which appears to point to the righteous being chosen and the unrighteous destroyed by death. But I am admitting that I am no way an expert and obviously have no way of knowing for sure, so of course it is possible.
Jesus also mentioned that very few “sit at the table.” Those would most likely be the Saints and the very unfortunate on Earth who suffer unimaginable hardships and torments. It would be impossible to ascertain for me that someone who lives a charmed and comfortable life does some good deeds and prays and such would hold a candle to a severely disabled or suffering person who spends their entire life fighting battles EVERY SINGLE DAY.
Only God knows, but I know which route humans would prefer… He has perfect justice, so it is terrifying to think. Without believing that a large number of people get “in” I believe it would be very difficult for anyone living a relatively comfortable life to feel anywhere close to confident that they will not be tortured for eternity.
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laylow
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But didn’t Jesus debunk that very theory but his very nature? He was born to a poor family in a manger! He “hung out” with the lower rungs of society. The apostles come from that group. Some of his harshest criticisms were saved for the wealthy and the pharisees whom seemed to just want to “follow the rules” and look good doing it.
These are things I reflect on every day and it is frightening to say the least.
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thistle
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Well your opinion and private interpretation does not trump the Church’s teaching.
Christ established the Catholic Church, entrusted it with the Deposit of Faith, and gave it authority in matters of faith and morals. In such matters it cannot be in error and all teachings have the authority of God behind them.
If you have opinions which contradict Church teachings then it is you who are wrong and not the Church.
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laylow
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I’m not trying to combative, or cause any friction, but just looking for scripture that states that talks about deposit of faith and when Christ placed this authority. Matthew 28:18-20?
18 [a]Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore,** and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.[c] And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”**
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NeedImprovement
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I’m no expert on that particular point , but the quote provided from the article linked in the post you’re replying to,seems to say something somewhat different to your interpretation. I refer you back to a partial snippet of the excerpt posted:
Jesus was not “born to a poor family in a manger”, but He was born under the poorest of conditions - in a manger - not because St Joseph was a bad carpenter, but because the Holy Family were forced to travel for the census of Cesar Augustus while Mary- very late in her pregnancy, was carrying our Blessed Lord in her womb and, while equally, all the places travelers regularly stayed were already occupied : [SIGN]No Vacancy[/SIGN] [SIGN]Be Warm[/SIGN] [SIGN]Stay Well[/SIGN] [SIGN]Can’t Help You[/SIGN] .:blackeye:
Just preceding the flight into Egypt, the Gospel of Matthew (2:1-12) says the Magi came to visit and pay homage to Jesus in a “house” - The DRV Bible, The KJV Bible and the NAB Version Bible are all unanimous in calling the dwelling a “house.” This would suggest a family of at least moderate means. Then, just before having to flee into Egypt, they received a gift of gold from one of the Magi.
When Jesus began his public life/ministry , at that time, He seemed to want to get the message across to us that riches, in and of themselves, could be an obstacle to salvation. But it’s all hinged on what one does (or doesn’t do) with the riches. . . and in a certain sense, what one’s motivation is for doing (or not doing) so.
I don’t always see it as Jesus constantly “hanging out” with a whole lot of people. He was almost always on the move during the 3 years of his public ministry. Much of the Gospels appear to present it more like He led, and many followed (at least,until He delivered the discourse on the Bread of Life , John 6:66).
There do appear to be several friends whom Jesus hung out with, foremost among them being, Lazarus and his sisters Martha and Mary. There is also agreement which opines that Jesus’ good friend Lazarus, was not poor at all :
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NeedImprovement
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II
I personally find it less frightening when we consider who Jesus reached out to - rather than who he hung out with. It seems like the only requirement was that one had to be a sinner, and be open to his grace. While He was constantly among the sick and the lame healing them (and forgiving their sins) , Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus - ruler of the synagogue in Capernahum (probably wealthy).
He also went to see Zacchaeus - who had, in all likelihood, become wealthy by less than honest means seeing that he was the chief tax collector. Yet, once “salvation had come” to his house, he gave half his possessions to the poor, and was willing to repay fourfold anyone whom he had defrauded.
Jesus went to anyone in need of saving who was open to Him :
The definition of “Wealth” from Fr. John Hardon S.J.'s Modern Catholic Dictionary
Part of a rule the Pharisees kept missing was the most important one of all: Love your neighbor as yourself.
I personally find it less frightening when we consider who Jesus reached out to - rather than who he hung out with. It seems like the only requirement was that one had to be a sinner, and be open to his grace. While He was constantly among the sick and the lame healing them (and forgiving their sins) , Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus - ruler of the synagogue in Capernahum (probably wealthy).
He also went to see Zacchaeus - who had, in all likelihood, become wealthy by less than honest means seeing that he was the chief tax collector. Yet, once “salvation had come” to his house, he gave half his possessions to the poor, and was willing to repay fourfold anyone whom he had defrauded.
Jesus went to anyone in need of saving who was open to Him :
- their financial status was secondary.
The definition of “Wealth” from Fr. John Hardon S.J.'s Modern Catholic Dictionary
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laylow
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It’s all unfair…
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davidv
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What is “all”?, And why is it unfair. What do you mean by unfair?
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NeedImprovement
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From Modern Catholic Dictionary ; Fr. John Hardon, S.J.
.:dts:
Could there ever be anything more unfair in this universe than the Crucifixion of our Blessed Lord ?
.:dts:
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laylow
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Of course not. But human can never measure up to our Lord, nor are we expected to. We are expected to try our best.
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laylow
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Well…being tortured for all eternity for a few actions would be unfair, no matter how bad they are. I truly don’t think anyone would choose that fate knowingly or purposely.
I know the church doesn’t teach this, but when I thought of it being for all eternity, I always pictured hell as kind of like our present earth. People would be continuously searching for love and happiness and never truly find it. That would be torturous as it continues, because without God, you will never find happiness.
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