Hell

[NeedImprovement]

As I mentioned, I think it is a worthy discussion. Obviously I don’t have the answer. But I do think the church did use the ‘fear’ tactic a bit to get followers and members.

That’s rather a wide brush to paint the entire “Church” with. Are you meaning using the ‘fear’ tactic . . . as opposed to expounding more upon God’s “mercury”?

. . .
We definitely should not take it for granted, but God’s mercury is unfathomable. He may make us suffer to earn our way, but I think he is very just. . .

At this time, I would just clarify for any other fellow members/readers regarding the word Aionios ,back in post # 24, I was quoting the Greek Lexicon - that’s not some mischievous elf of Irish folklore who has a preference for olives and feta cheese in his salad. .

 

[NeedImprovement]

Personally, I don’t think I could attribute use of any ‘fear tactic’ to Our Blessed Mother when at Fatima, she showed the children a vision of Hell. She was showing the children reality - terrifying, but reality , because she is a Mother who hopes and prays for the salvation of all her children - just like the Church does.

 

[joeybaggz]

Can you provide documentation of this…I want to see the history.

That statement seems to smack of arguing just to argue. Christ teaches any number of parables concerning those thrown out into the darkness, i.e. the five foolish virgins, the unworthy steward, Lazarus and the rich man, and others. And as other posters have pointed out Jesus spoke of everlasting fire and damnation any number of times. Does one need to go any further than the Lord’s own words?

To avoid hell, one need only to look at the incident of Jesus and the young rich man. The young man asks Jesus, “what must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus’ answer, “Obey the Commandments.” When questioned, Jesus cited the social commandment of the ten issued to Moses on Sinai.

One thing that makes the question easier for me is the semantics. It is traditionally cited that God punishes the wicked, and rewards the just. Personally, I don’t like the word punish. It doesn’t square with a loving and merciful God. I think the better word is merit.
Your eternal dwelling place will be dependent on what you merit based on the life you have lived. You determine your eventual fate. The God of perfect justice will simply give you what you ask for.

Is hell a pit of fire and torture by ghastly demons? Well, far be it from me to contradict Jesus’ words, but I wonder if Christ was being allegorical. Hell is a permanent divorce from the love and presence of God. Something that will pain one to a degree that the pain of fire might be the only reference that resonates with man.

My :twocents:

Shalom

 

[oyaji]

I am Catholic, I want to talk about Hell. I have so many things I want to bring up, but I would rather have people bring up their views and then I will discuss those…

The notion that a God who loves us unconditionally, and wills our salvation, would knowingly create us; knowing that we would spend an eternity in the more horrific pain imaginable is absurd, IMO.

 

[oyaji]

Personally, if you actually are Catholic, then look to the teachings of the Catholic Church as presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Has the CC authoritatively pronounced that hell has no end, that the overwhelming majority of God’s children will suffer unimaginable pain forever, and ever, and ever…,

I am not Catholic (used to be) and while I used to believe in the present day teaching of hell, I just took it for granted that it was Catholic dogma.

 

[Cathoholic]

laylow. Why do you attack the idea of Heaven. Don’t you believe in the eternity of Heaven?

You also said (about Hell this time) . . . .

You would never leave the church, maybe for a few bites to eat. It just doesn’t make any sense. God would have to be be (sic) the most sadistic, cruel dictator you ever heard of, when the Bible clearly paints a different picture. Also, Hell is never mentioned in the Bible.

WHY do you believe in the Bible?

But, why think Heaven is a temporary resort then comes destruction, . . . . destruction and annihilation to the one in Heaven.

Where is THAT taught?
If not what do you think happens to those who go to Heaven.
And how long do you think they go there to Heaven for??

I just don’t get your ideas.

It seems like YOUR (wrong) idea about God is that of a “sadistic, cruel dictator”.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Techno2000]

olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml

 

[drac16]

Matthew 25:46 says “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”. Nobody would argue what eternal life means, right? Well, that same word, aeonian, is used in reference to Hell, which is eternal punishment. The exact same greek word is used to describe both places. So if you’re going to say that eternal punishment is not eternal, then neither is eternal life.

 

[laylow]

Well, I’ve read through this entire thread, and to be honest, Laylow, I think you have some “out there” kind of ideas.

I don’t see the connection between the narrow gate and people in the US needing to suffer unmitigated pain in this life to have a chance.

And why, if you are Catholic, are you putting more weight on the musings of non-Catholic writers than the magisterium of your own Church?

And if the understanding of hell is all about interpretation, as you say, how do you know whose interpretation to trust? Don’t you end up just finding the person whose opinion is closest to yours and saying, “Ah, here at last is a man who understands!”

Personally, if you actually are Catholic, then look to the teachings of the Catholic Church as presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I don’t have time to the do the research for you at this moment – my son needs my attention – but hopefully you’ll take the time to look it, or perhaps some kind CAF member will be able to spare a moment to do that for you.

God bless you!

I think it is always healthy to assess things.

 

[laylow]

Matthew 25:46 says “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”. Nobody would argue what eternal life means, right? Well, that same word, aeonian, is used in reference to Hell, which is eternal punishment. The exact same greek word is used to describe both places. So if you’re going to say that eternal punishment is not eternal, then neither is eternal life.

And this is where we discover, yet again, that some of our core perceptions of the Bible are the result of outdated Greek translations.

The word punishment used here is iskolasis, which can also be translated as “correction”. It speaks to the idea of corrective punishment.

The word eternal used here is aiōnios, and like Gehenna, it has been completely mistranslated throughout the New Testament. As NT Greek teacher Richard Liantonio explains, aiōnios actually refers to to the length of an Age or “from age to age”. In Greek, an Age could refer to a generation, lifetime, or a longer, finite length of time. It’s where we get our word “eon”. It also correlates with the Hebrew word Yom, which denotes anything from a 24-hour period to an epoch season.

What this means is that any time we see the term “eternal life” in the New Testament, it should actually be translated as “life of the Age”.

Think about that for a second. That’s a pretty big deal.

Among other important things, it means that this phrase “eternal punishment” could more accurately be viewed as “correction for the length of the Age“.

This paints a VERY different picture than the one we are used to, but when we dig a bit deeper, we find it to be far more congruent with scripture than our old paradigm.

There is a profound difference between restorative punishment and retributive punishment. In the Western world, we operate based on retributive justice. You committed a felony? You are punished by going to jail. You murdered someone? You are put to death or sent to jail for life. These punishments are not distributed with a positive outcome in mind. They are not intended to rehabilitate or restore. They are society’s retribution upon the wrong-doer, intended solely to punish and perhaps discourage others from wrongdoing for fear of punishment.

Since non-restorative punishment is our idea of justice, it’s no surprise we project it onto God.

But this is NOT the God we see in the Bible. God’s heart is ALWAYS to restore. We see this time and time and time again throughout His dealings with Israel.

Even if we take a traditionalist view of Israel’s calamities as the active hand of God punishing His people, we still see a God longing to bring His people back to Himself. We see Jesus lamenting that Jerusalem so often denied His protection.

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

The God of Israel always punished to restore, and that’s what we see in an accurate translation of Matthew 25:46 – not “eternal punishment” but “correction for the length of an age”.

 

[laylow]

My main summary is that the entire concept is based on fear. When I begin to think about it, it paralyzes me with fear to the point that my anxiety is so high that I cannot live life. I just want to lock myself in a room and torture myself so that I never sin. But since I already have and would still be probably sinning in that one room torture, I still probably wouldn’t make it.

 

[laylow]

Personally, I don’t think I could attribute use of any ‘fear tactic’ to Our Blessed Mother when at Fatima, she showed the children a vision of Hell. She was showing the children reality - terrifying, but reality , because she is a Mother who hopes and prays for the salvation of all her children - just like the Church does.

Hoping and praying doesn’t seem quite enough when we are talking about torture for eternity. I would think “doing” would be in order.

 

[laylow]

laylow. Why do you attack the idea of Heaven. Don’t you believe in the eternity of Heaven?

You also said (about Hell this time) . . . .

WHY do you believe in the Bible?

But, why think Heaven is a temporary resort then comes destruction, . . . . destruction and annihilation to the one in Heaven.

Where is THAT taught?
If not what do you think happens to those who go to Heaven.
And how long do you think they go there to Heaven for??

I just don’t get your ideas.

It seems like YOUR (wrong) idea about God is that of a “sadistic, cruel dictator”.

God bless.

Cathoholic

I do not “attack” any of the ideas. To challenge and discuss is healthy. Otherwise it is brainwashing to some degree. If I’m not to believe the Bible, what am I to believe? St thomas Aquinas, who encourages that saints in heaven should enjoy seeing souls punished forever?

 

[laylow]

Well, I’ve read through this entire thread, and to be honest, Laylow, I think you have some “out there” kind of ideas.

I don’t see the connection between the narrow gate and people in the US needing to suffer unmitigated pain in this life to have a chance.

And why, if you are Catholic, are you putting more weight on the musings of non-Catholic writers than the magisterium of your own Church?

And if the understanding of hell is all about interpretation, as you say, how do you know whose interpretation to trust? Don’t you end up just finding the person whose opinion is closest to yours and saying, “Ah, here at last is a man who understands!”

Personally, if you actually are Catholic, then look to the teachings of the Catholic Church as presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I don’t have time to the do the research for you at this moment – my son needs my attention – but hopefully you’ll take the time to look it, or perhaps some kind CAF member will be able to spare a moment to do that for you.

God bless you!

Most people in the US live in extreme comfort. They do not sell all of their things and give to the poor to follow Jesus, as he asked the Rich man. Jesus also said it is virtually impossible for a rich man to make it to heaven. Relative to the world, also everyone in th e States is rich.

 

[Techno2000]

My main summary is that the entire concept is based on fear. When I begin to think about it, it paralyzes me with fear to the point that my anxiety is so high that I cannot live life. I just want to lock myself in a room and torture myself so that I never sin. But since I already have and would still be probably sinning in that one room torture, I still probably wouldn’t make it.

Prayer to the Shoulder Wound of Jesus

It is related in the annals of Clairvaux that St. Bernard asked Our Lord which was His greatest unrecorded suffering and Our Lord answered: “I had on My Shoulder, while I bore My Cross on the Way of Sorrows, a grievous Wound, which was more painful than the others and which is not recorded by men. Honor this Wound with thy devotion and I will grant thee whatsoever thou dost ask through Its virtue and merit. And in regard to all those who shall venerate this Wound, I will remit to them all their venial sins and will no longer remember their mortal sins.”

This revelation and promise of Our Dear Savior is another proof of His unlimited mercy. You are urged to say these prayers daily and to promulgate this prayer on a continuous basis, so that others may share in this blessing.

The Prayer

O Loving Jesus, meek Lamb of God, I a miserable sinner, salute and worship the most Sacred Wound of Thy Shoulder on which Thou didst bear Thy heavy Cross, which so tore Thy Flesh and laid bare Thy Bones as to inflict on Thee an anguish greater than any other Wound of Thy Most Blessed Body. I adore Thee, O Jesus most sorrowful; I praise and glorify Thee and give Thee thanks for this most sacred and painful Wound, beseeching Thee by that exceeding pain and by the crushing burden of Thy heavy Cross to be merciful to me, a sinner, to forgive me all my mortal and venial sins, and to lead me on towards Heaven along the Way of Thy Cross. Amen.

Imprimatur: Thomas D. Beven, Bishop of Springfield, Ma.

Pope Eugenius III, at the earnest request of St. Bernard, has granted three thousand years Indulgence to all who with a contrite heart, recite the Lord’s Prayer and Hail Mary 3 times, in honor of the Wound on the Shoulder of Our Blessed Redeemer.
brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm

 

[laylow]

Hoping and praying doesn’t seem quite enough when we are talking about torture for eternity. I would think “doing” would be in order.

And by doing, I don’t mean St. Faunista, she did plenty it would seem.

 

[laylow]

When it comes to the issue of Hell, what we say often doesn’t match up with what we do.

What I mean is that many Christians say they believe that Hell is a place of conscious, never-ending suffering, but don’t live their lives in ways that would indicate that they really believe it to be true. They don’t exhibit any serious concern for the billions of people supposedly destined to end up there. They have to be taught to “just walk across the room,” instead of running as fast as they possibly can to tell their lost relatives, friends, and coworkers of the horrific danger they face. And, very few seem to care enough for those they think are heading toward endless misery to go out of their way to try to stop them.

 

[Gertabelle]

My main summary is that the entire concept is based on fear. When I begin to think about it, it paralyzes me with fear to the point that my anxiety is so high that I cannot live life. I just want to lock myself in a room and torture myself so that I never sin. But since I already have and would still be probably sinning in that one room torture, I still probably wouldn’t make it.

And here is the problem – you are so focused on yourself, and what you can do to get out of hell, and your eternal destination, and you, you, you…

Forget all the discussion about whether hell is eternal or exists at all…

Take a moment instead to consider God’s great love for you, God’s mercy, God’s desire to be in relationship with you… God, God, God…

 

[Techno2000]

When it comes to the issue of Hell, what we say often doesn’t match up with what we do.

What I mean is that many Christians say they believe that Hell is a place of conscious, never-ending suffering, but don’t live their lives in ways that would indicate that they really believe it to be true. They don’t exhibit any serious concern for the billions of people supposedly destined to end up there. They have to be taught to “just walk across the room,” instead of running as fast as they possibly can to tell their lost relatives, friends, and coworkers of the horrific danger they face. And, very few seem to care enough for those they think are heading toward endless misery to go out of their way to try to stop them.

The best one can do for family and friends is to pray for them.

 

[friardchips]

And here is the problem – you are so focused on yourself, and what you can do to get out of hell, and your eternal destination, and you, you, you…

Forget all the discussion about whether hell is eternal or exists at all…

Take a moment instead to consider God’s great love for you, God’s mercy, God’s desire to be in relationship with you… God, God, God…

If people don’t believe in Hell then they don’t understand what God has done for us in entirety. Same applies to those who don’t believe in Satan.

Switch the argument on its head: do people think that Cannibals (this example I got from a comic), mass murdering psychopaths that carried out extensive torture on others without ever showing true repentance or saying sorry, belong in Heaven, amongst those who prayed, hoped and loved for God’s, their own and other’s sakes?