Hell

[George_Waters]

Please do read the links provided and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church before you believe anything about the Catholic Church (even what some “Catholics” may tell you). What the other posters have said here about the fate of your soul is the position of the Church (as you can/should confirm in the Catechism).

The Church does not teach that simply confessing Jesus is Lord will save you or not being Catholic will damn you. That position is illogical!

Browse through the Catechism and look at books like “What Catholic’s Really Believe” before you believe anything about the Catholic Church. There are a lot of misconceptions out there. I had many similar questions before I became Catholic and it was finding out what the Church really teaches that brought me closer to home. It may not be quick-and-easy, but educating yourself on what the Church really teaches will help you a lot in the long run and God willing maybe you will someday be in communion with us!

 

[George_Waters]

Please follow this link

catholic.com/library/salvation_outside_the_church.asp**

It works like this (correct me if is am wrong)

I know that Jesus is who he claimed to be, and I know that the Catholic Church is where I should be. If I turn my back on either one, I am doomed. No salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

There are, however, lots of people who for whatever reason do not know Jesus or the Truth of his Church. These people have other means of salvation if, and only if, their denial of Christ or his Church is not an intentional act of will in defiance of their mind or heart.

The doctrine goes a step further. Because the Catholic Church is the Churhc founded by Christ to spread the Word, it is through the Church that the work of salvation continues

Good answer!

 

[ralphinal]

Thanks. I hope our new friend continues her journey towards truth, and I hope all of us are good examples for her.

 

[George_Waters]

Thanks. I hope our new friend continues her journey towards truth, and I hope all of us are good examples for her.

 

[uglygal]

Honestly, the logic for the automatic damnation part according to religion/denomination is flawed.

I am Catholic and I believe in salvation apart from the Catholic Church. Nowhere in the early apostolic teachings teach that your denomination determines your salvation.

The irony of that is that Catholic means Universal… wierd

Before Vatican 2, the Catholic church taught that anyone who isn’t catholic isn’t going to heaven. (I have pre-vatican 2 book that asserts that.) That logic is more political than it is reasonable. Would Jesus even affirm that?

After Vatican 2, they hid it from the teachings. Apparently, it is still there…

Before it was proven that the world rotated around the Sun, the Catholic church insisted that the universe centered around the earth. Once it was proven, they recanted.

Even the pope rallied people to do the crusades by telling them that their sins would be forgiven if they did so… and they filled the streets of Jerusalem with blood.

Interestingly enough, Papal infallibility was invented by a pope.

Just as there are the 200 laws that Moses provided, they are not in equal stature to the original 10 commandments he got from the Mountain. Equally, the CCC is a guidebook, but not the definite rulebook for Christianism/Catholicism. The ultimate judge is God.

Heaven would be a sad place if only Catholics lived in it, and the Catholic God would not be a loving God because instead of love, he measured by denomination.

The best part of Catholicism is the theory behind the faith, and not the laws that govern it.

After all, didn’t the Jews crucify Jesus based on being strict on their laws? They were so blinded by the laws that they forgot how to love. They sought God, but even when God was with us, they missed him completely.

I tend to agree with what you say. I also believe much religious talk, whether Islam or Christian, about infidels and heretics is more political than any genuine concern for the soul of another person.

The 200 Mosaic laws are disturbing to some degree and I would like an explanation for all of them. I fail to see how they are anything but evil and therefore not of God, but maybe that’s a question I’ll ask another time.

They were so blinded by the laws that they forgot how to love. They sought God, but even when God was with us, they missed him completely

That’s a little bit of insight well worth reflecting on. God is Love, and love is not fickle or archaic, it is compassionate and understanding. God understands our fears and histories. Yes I think that is quiet right. :yup:

Come to think of it, Jesus chose to go to His death in silence rather than utter a single word of damnation against those who crucified Him. No hellfire threats there, actually the only ones who did get rebukes from Him were the Jewish clergy. :whacky:

Thankyou to everyone who is willing to reply to me, i do appreciate it

 

[uglygal]

Please follow this link

catholic.com/library/salvation_outside_the_church.asp**

It works like this (correct me if is am wrong)

I know that Jesus is who he claimed to be, and I know that the Catholic Church is where I should be. If I turn my back on either one, I am doomed. No salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

There are, however, lots of people who for whatever reason do not know Jesus or the Truth of his Church. These people have other means of salvation if, and only if, their denial of Christ or his Church is not an intentional act of will in defiance of their mind or heart.

The doctrine goes a step further. Because the Catholic Church is the Churhc founded by Christ to spread the Word, it is through the Church that the work of salvation continues

That is the link I followed.

 

[theistgal]

My spirituality has become profoundly simple and pure and it has been given to me by God Himself. I asked Him, how am I to know what way is right and all he showed me was His heart - the Heart of God.

What evidence can you provide us - other than your word - that God actually gave you this revelation?

 

[uglygal]

I think reading over the replies that you assert the position of the Church is that those who go to hell are those who intentionally reject the truth. Is that the sum of it?

For instance: I know who God is, what His laws are, what He wants but I say “no”, I don’t want that, I prefer this belief or that belief.

If that is the position than I believe my question has been answered.
Thankyou

 

[uglygal]

What evidence can you provide us - other than your word - that God actually gave you this revelation?

Ultimately every person has their own faith to rely upon, their own soul to navigate through the world, even when dealing with evidence. Evidence abounds for many things and facts can be used to prove almost any argument - muslims have “evidence” for Islam, christians have “evidence” for christianity, atheists have “evidence” for atheism. Yet whether it is accepted or rejected remains a choice for every person to make.

I have no evidence other than it’s been written into my heart by God’s love for me. His Heart is the jewel He shows me in my dreams, in my prayers, in the beauty of the earth and the beauty of people when they imitate His Heart.

Do you hear God or have you heard His voice? Do you know when or how he speaks to his little ones? Why does it surprise you that God would reveal (teach) me something of Himself? Do you judge me unworthy?

I don’t say these things to upset or be unkind, that is not my intention, but I would like to know the intention that lies beneath this question, and where it’s heading?

In Gods Love

 

[Verbum_Caro]

gal,

Hi, welcome to the forums!

I think that much of what you have shared with us so far seems quite noble and principled. You seem to be sincere, and seem to be acting in sincerity, according to your best lights. Perhaps as time goes on more light will be shed, and perhaps your course will alter accordingly.

I note that you said:

Come to think of it, Jesus chose to go to His death in silence rather than utter a single word of damnation against those who crucified Him.

You said earlier that you are not a Christian. You also seem to indicate that Jesus went to His death (and you capitalized His!) by crucifixion. So I take you accept the historical fact that Jesus lived and died by crucifixion? Can you elaborate on your views for us?

God bless you!
VC

 

[uglygal]

gal,
You said earlier that you are not a Christian. You also seem to indicate that Jesus went to His death (and you capitalized His!) by crucifixion. So I take you accept the historical fact that Jesus lived and died by crucifixion? Can you elaborate on your views for us?

God bless you!
VC

That is correct. I am not a christian because I do not believe in the christian religions. Some people call them denominations, yet they are so theologically divergent one from the other (and even openly hostile one to the other) that I can see no reason to not say what is really just being left unsaid - they are a multitude of religions between which one christian of the Everlasting Dawn Church of Mt Murray is more saved than the heretical christian Church of the Blazing Sun of New York . One is strictly trinitarian and the other is modalist. Whilst down the road, the Watchtower Church of Jehovah Witnesses worship Jesus as some incarnated form of the Arch Angel Michael (isn’t worship of an arch-angel idolatory and setting up a false God according to the 1st or 2nd Commandment - and that also varies with what denomination you belong to). Regardless, its not my intent to mar people’s beliefs or attack them but I don’t think there is anything wrong in kindly and charitably exposing and rejecting what indeed seems to be absurd.

This amazing mess bears much witness to what is at the core of christianity - confusion - and confusion is not borne of God. God does not desire we little people be confused but to know and see Him clearly.

My position on Jesus is more difficult to elaborate and I will need some time to answer that one. Part of the reason I want to have peaceful discussions with people is to come to some understanding of Him and to do this I need to consider all perspectives of Him.

Yes I used a capital ‘H’ for ‘HIM’ because I know you revere Jesus alot and it’s not my intent or desire to come here and cause trouble or be disrespectful (I hope that’s evident by now).

As for me and Jesus, I don’t quiet know what to make of Him. I believe in His historicity because the evidence to the contrary is limited (unless you adamantly desire to *not *believe in Him before you look at the case for/against Him)

I also believe he was crucified as I do not believe the earliest apostles would lie and contrary hypothesis have been less than persuasive. For instance, surviving a Roman crucifixion and running around appearing to people three days later don’t get me wrong but if He could do that with the medical treatment they had in those days, that in itself would be highly impressive - the whole question of His divinity put aside :tiphat: Many people who argue a person could survive a Roman crucifixion forget the masterful art of Roman torture and killing - they were unsurpassed in their expertise.

Generally, yes I do believe Jesus existed, approximately 2000 years ago and was crucified. I think its the deeper and more important issues that make me not a christian. Issues such as; His Divinity and His theology

In God’s peace

 

[ralphinal]

I hope that I was helpful. I find your questions and approach refreshing. Anytime you have a question, let me know.

 

[Tietjen]

Honestly, the logic for the automatic damnation part according to religion/denomination is flawed.

I am Catholic and I believe in salvation apart from the Catholic Church. Nowhere in the early apostolic teachings teach that your denomination determines your salvation.

The irony of that is that Catholic means Universal… wierd

Before Vatican 2, the Catholic church taught that anyone who isn’t catholic isn’t going to heaven. (I have pre-vatican 2 book that asserts that.) That logic is more political than it is reasonable. Would Jesus even affirm that?

After Vatican 2, they hid it from the teachings. Apparently, it is still there…

Before it was proven that the world rotated around the Sun, the Catholic church insisted that the universe centered around the earth. Once it was proven, they recanted.

Even the pope rallied people to do the crusades by telling them that their sins would be forgiven if they did so… and they filled the streets of Jerusalem with blood.

Interestingly enough, Papal infallibility was invented by a pope.

Just as there are the 200 laws that Moses provided, they are not in equal stature to the original 10 commandments he got from the Mountain. Equally, the CCC is a guidebook, but not the definite rulebook for Christianism/Catholicism. The ultimate judge is God.

Heaven would be a sad place if only Catholics lived in it, and the Catholic God would not be a loving God because instead of love, he measured by denomination.

The best part of Catholicism is the theory behind the faith, and not the laws that govern it.

After all, didn’t the Jews crucify Jesus based on being strict on their laws? They were so blinded by the laws that they forgot how to love. They sought God, but even when God was with us, they missed him completely.

I mean no disrespect but I too believe that choosing what to believe and what not to believe from the Church is dangerous. Either Christ gave the Church authority or He didn’t. If you are suggesting that he didn’t then you are asserting that the Bible is wrong. If you agree that the Church was given authority, then your the post above doesn’t make sense with what you believe. God bless.

 

[theistgal]

Ultimately every person has their own faith to rely upon, their own soul to navigate through the world, even when dealing with evidence.

Been there, done that. Led me straight into complete atheism.

Evidence abounds for many things and facts can be used to prove almost any argument - muslims have “evidence” for Islam, christians have “evidence” for christianity, atheists have “evidence” for atheism. Yet whether it is accepted or rejected remains a choice for every person to make.

That’s right, but the Catholic Church has a lot more basis for its evidence than you do.

I have no evidence other than it’s been written into my heart by God’s love for me. His Heart is the jewel He shows me in my dreams, in my prayers, in the beauty of the earth and the beauty of people when they imitate His Heart.

That and $3.50 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks (if they haven’t raised the prices since this morning ).

Do you hear God or have you heard His voice? Do you know when or how he speaks to his little ones?

Yes. He speaks to me through His Bride, the Church.

Why does it surprise you that God would reveal (teach) me something of Himself? Do you judge me unworthy?

Since I don’t know you from Adam, I have no way to judge you, other than by the words you’ve given us here.

I don’t say these things to upset or be unkind, that is not my intention, but I would like to know the intention that lies beneath this question, and where it’s heading?

Simple. You came here and told us that we should believe you and your version of reality, rather than the version of reality which we’ve been taught by the Church founded by Our Savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of the very same God you claim has given you a completely different version of reality.

So the intention that lies beneath my question is - by what authority do you speak? Why should we put the slightest bit of faith in you, rather than in the Church which Christ gave us?

In His love,
Theist Gal

 

[Ridgerunner]

Gal:

I hope I’m not muddying the water further, but I did wish to correct one thing you asserted about Catholicism. You said one goes to heaven or hell depending on what he/she believes. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. One may well believe every last thing the Church teaches and still go to hell. One may believe none of it and still go to heaven.

One of the Doctors of the Church put it very well. She said everyone in hell is a volunteer; a real volunteer, not an accidental volunteer. The Church has never definitevely said what hell is like except in one respect only; that it is permanent separation from God. All the fire and stuff might be so and might not. But the Church has never said that as a defined doctrine. To this Doctor, as I mentioned, there is always a moment of absoute clarity; when our sins in all their fullness are clear to us. It is a devastating moment. We are then offered forgiveness and love, but we must accept it. If we reject it out of pride, we do so with absolute clarity of mind and will, and never change our minds. Knowing that separation from God is the ultimate separation from our true destiny, we choose an eternity wrapped in ourselves, like a moth inside a cocoon. It’s hard to picture a person doing that, but in a way I can. I have seen and done things that make me think of that cocoon of self love. I think I understand how it’s structured.

That moment of clarity, she taught, is at or near the point of death; perhaps even after. The moment when the decision determines the destiny irrevocably.

And yes, she taught that we spend a lifetime preparing ourselves in what we do; in the way we act. If we choose ourselves, always in our lifetime, we may well continue that into eternity-by our own choice. If, in our lives, we humbly accept that we are creatures loved by God; creatures that God wants to envelop in Himself and His love, and act according to that acceptance, then we will likely accept His mercy and His love at the critical hour.

It doesn’t seem so harsh to me, except to the extent I elect harshness.

Why then, one might ask, is the Church even necessary? It is necessary in one sense, but only helpful in another. Christ really did establish His Church. He said so. What boundaries did he put around it? He didn’t, really, except that He declared that His Church would have the power to forgive sins. Basically, He was saying that the natural weakness of men could be remedied by men. That is a central point of the Incarnation. God actually chose to share Himself and something of His power with men and women. He became one of us because, in doing so, He shared His being with us. He did that because He wanted to do it; because He loved us and knew we could only find true happiness by sharing in His being. And it’s true. We have an infinite capacity for happiness and love. We can drink of it forever and never get full. Their fulness is only in the infinite Source. and we can never be fully human without Him. We, ourselves, are not sufficient to ourselves, and insisting that we will seek happiness in ourselves is a lie we know we are telling. And living with that lie and that emptiness is hell.

 

[Tietjen]

Dear Uglygal,

It is obvious that you have been misled, uneducated, or assumed incorrectly on those things related to the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church. I don’t say this to be insulting, so please do not take it that way. However, from the above post it would seem that you are against many things that the Catholic Church does not even teach, thereby making much of your argument a “strawman.”

Please, take some time and read the CCC. Read information from legit Catholic sources (not those sources that are anti-Catholic). See for yourself what we believe before you lump all regions together as being untrue. You have brought up soooo many things that you say the Church believes (even though many of them are NOT Church teachings).

If I can be of further help, PM me and I will try to better explain. I wish you well and God bless.

 

[uglygal]

Simple. You came here and told us that we should believe you and your version of reality, rather than the version of reality which we’ve been taught by the Church founded by Our Savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of the very same God you claim has given you a completely different version of reality.

So the intention that lies beneath my question is - by what authority do you speak? Why should we put the slightest bit of faith in you, rather than in the Church which Christ gave us?

In His love,
Theist Gal

Where and when did I come here to ask you to believe my reality? You are throwing accusations at me for deeds I have not done. I am not a prophet or a guide and never have I claimed to be such. In truth I feel, which I did from the outset, that your post is intended to search for meanings in my words that are not there, make accusations that have no basis, and belittle me because I am not catholic.

I have not hidden what authority I speak by. I speak by where my heart and soul has been led by god.
Did i ask you to put faith in me? again your accusing me of things I have not done.
This is a forum for people of different faiths to discuss god with catholics and non-catholics. What have I done wrong or is the name of this forum intentionally misleading. Is this a forum where only the catholic can speak of their faith and all others cannot?

If not than by what right do you attack me. I refrain from doing so to you and catholicism so why do you do it to me?

 

[uglygal]

Dear Uglygal,

It is obvious that you have been misled, uneducated, or assumed incorrectly on those things related to the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church. I don’t say this to be insulting, so please do not take it that way. However, from the above post it would seem that you are against many things that the Catholic Church does not even teach, thereby making much of your argument a “strawman.”

Please, take some time and read the CCC. Read information from legit Catholic sources (not those sources that are anti-Catholic). See for yourself what we believe before you lump all regions together as being untrue. You have brought up soooo many things that you say the Church believes (even though many of them are NOT Church teachings).

If I can be of further help, PM me and I will try to better explain. I wish you well and God bless.

Fair enough, if I am in error on “sooooo many things” as you put it , I’m open to knowing what they are.
Could you PM a list to me?

 

[uglygal]

Gal:

I hope I’m not muddying the water further, but I did wish to correct one thing you asserted about Catholicism. You said one goes to heaven or hell depending on what he/she believes. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. One may well believe every last thing the Church teaches and still go to hell. One may believe none of it and still go to heaven.

This is where my confusion arises. You have stated this to me, yet to the contrary, one of apostolic fathers says; “Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (ibid., 141:5)"

These two positions are incompatible. To say that one may believe none of it and still go to heaven, whilst to the contrary another says whoever is separated from the Church **by this single sin ** regardless how estimable their life, the wrath of God rests on them.

Can you understand my confusion? I hope I am making my questions clear. It appears that two contrary positions are being forwarded and I am not understanding how they click together to make a complete whole.

Thankyou for your kind patience

 

[Greg27]

I am not a Christian. I do not believe in the christian “theology” of God because it is cruel and unjust.
What I do believe is that God is One, all Pure and Perfect, Perfect Love, Perfect Mercy, Perfect Justice. I do not adhere to any identifiable religion other than to simply say: my faith = “I Believe”, my God = “He Is”, eternity = “perfect love”.
My spirituality has become profoundly simple and pure and it has been given to me by God Himself. I asked Him, how am I to know what way is right and all he showed me was His heart - the Heart of God.

Yet I am damned according to Christians. God has not abandoned me and is present in my life on a daily basis, but according to church dogma, I am hellbound and damned because I am not in the institution of the church.

So my question is, why do christians hate non-christians so much? why is religion reduced to a tug of war of trying to get people to pay lip-service the way the church teaches? Where does the church get authority to proclaim any soul damned to hell?

Telling someone they are hellbound is a very serious accusation to make (I think). Please don’t attack me personally because of the question and/or don’t attack me as an ‘answer’ to the question. I genuinely want to know if someone like me (non-christian) is going to hell - and why.

Thankyou

Religion can bring out the best and the worst emotions in people. At its best, various religions bring people into an intimate relationship with what they feel or believe to be the highest Reality and inspires them to be saints, people who love others, who are filled with compassion for those who suffer, who are not afraid to speak up for justice when necessary, and who are not self-centered in the sense their selfish ego is more important than the principles they hold. One can see many fine examples of saints in various world religions, including Christianity. One can also see morally great people who are not necessarily religious, such as those who do very well in their field (medicine, science, philosophy, military service, politics, etc) and do their best to be as virtuous as possible.

At its worst, religion becomes a reflection of a person’s worst emotions and flaws, and absolutises them. My hate becomes God’s hate, my judgement becomes God’s judgement, my anger is God’s anger, and so on. Anyone who is not with me (as the individual I am and who and what I believe in) is of the devil’s party and deserves extermination, or at least my suspicion, hate, and contempt. Even in many saints in the world religions, we often see flashes of this sort of thing where what that person hates or fears is absolutised to the divine level, and becomes also what God also hates. Religion also seems to stir up some of the most primal elements of the human psyche and thus the emotions experienced and expressed can also be the most intense, including positive emotions (joy, compassion, happiness) as well as negative (hate, anger, etc). This is why spiritual masters in most world religions emphasize the need to understand our emotions and their seat (in the Bible the heart, or in Buddhism or Hinduism our mind or conciousness) and carefully learn to transfigure them in the light of God or the Supreme Reality.

All world religions are also salvific, in the sense they seek in a way to deliver us from a flawed state or condition of being. Christianity is a salvific religion, like Judaism and Islam, and what the Christian is saved from are the consequences of a perverted relationship with the ground and source of all reality, God. The fruit of salvation in Christianity is the direct vision of God, either here in this life (as a saint) or in the next life after death. This is accomplished in Christianity in a specific way or path, which is faith by Christ followed by conversion and repentance from the things which separate the believer from God and incorporation into the believing, worshipping community (baptism, the church, and its sacraments). This has been the practice of Christianity for many centuries, and even though there are many Christian denominations and churches in the modern world, the vast majority adhere to a fairly common set of practices, beliefs and methods of worship. It is also a missionary religion, like Buddhism and Islam, in the sense it believes its path to salvation is open to all and also there is an urgency in the truths that must be communicated to human beings in a flawed world in order for salvation to be achieved.