Hello Athiests!

  • Thread starter Thread starter josie_L
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
And what do you think of those relevant parts?
The parts not relying on or referring to religious matters.
Yes, she teaches infallibly on faith and morals, it’s not like she hid this fact from the rest of the world. And she most certainly won’t deny it when it comes to members of her own body.
Excuse me here… You were the one to open the “philosophy and natural law” as justifications topic, not me. Please don’t be so defensive.

Sometimes they do provide interesting arguments. Often times, they simply state their law or philosophical conclusion and appeal to authority.
Why is this an issue for you (authority) if all I asked was that you read the encyclicals to gain a greater understanding of the Church’s position
It doesn’t give me a better understanding of the Church’s position if the premises for their arguments are justified with because we have standing to say so.
And she does argue using natural, philosophical, scientific evidence/ approach, one example of this is abortion. She does not just appeal to the Bible/Tradition to state her case.
Can you cite the name of the one you have in mind?
Name me a topic to which you refer to that you state people so readily accept because they appeal to the Church’s authority, and then we can argue whether or not the Church uses reasons solely biblical/traditional for preaching as she does.
That’s just it … I can’t. Other than perhaps abortion (and even that not by a wide margin), I don’t know a single moral issue that is controversial to society at large that lay Catholics themselves generally agree on. Many lay Catholics simply reject Vatican positions on birth control, IVF, stem cell research, capital punishment, what constitutes a just war, etc.
Do you think that we blindly follow the Church and do not bother to understand why She holds the positions she does?
Actually, I don’t think most Catholics follow the Church in a lot of ways. I know lots of Catholics who reject central dogmas and still call themselves Roman Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I know reject many of the positions of the Vatican on controversial moral issues, and that small sample reflects what’s shown in polls too.
You would be surprised by how much faithful Catholics (in the West) know concerning such topics as embryonic stem cell research, abortion, cloning, contraceptives . . . . (that goes for the Pope too! )
Why would this surprise me? Do you assume all atheists think religious people are incurious about the world around them? This is getting tiresome.
Even if I were to state I agree with the Church on moral issues I do background work to understand her stance on issues. And there is more than enough information to back her up.
That’s fine. Even among its own laity the Vatican is failing to convince on issue after issue, so non-Catholics aren’t the only ones seeing the shortcomings in their arguments.
 
The parts not relying on or referring to religious matters.

👍

Excuse me here… You were the one to open the “philosophy and natural law” as justifications topic, not me. Please don’t be so defensive.

It just seemed naive that you would not expect the Church to state what she does authoritatively being that She views herself as the “bride of Christ”. And I thought you could look past the authority issue to understand how she came about proclaiming moral decisions.

Sometimes they do provide interesting arguments. Often times, they simply state their law or philosophical conclusion and appeal to authority.

So then they do provide reasonings apart from biblical/scriptural ones even if they proclaim such things authoritatively.

Can you cite the name of the one you have in mind?

I just stated abortion has one example.

That’s just it … I can’t. Other than perhaps abortion (and even that not by a wide margin), I don’t know a single moral issue that is controversial to society at large that lay Catholics themselves generally agree on. Many lay Catholics simply reject Vatican positions on birth control, IVF, stem cell research, capital punishment, what constitutes a just war, etc.

And that is because they are not doing their homework, As I mentioned before if people were to delve into the issues and look outside of the media (which fails to show any perspective other than their own) they would find the information that would make it possible for them to understand the Church’s position. I have done so myself and fully appreciate the moral decisions the CC has made.

Actually, I don’t think most Catholics follow the Church in a lot of ways. I know lots of Catholics who reject central dogmas and still call themselves Roman Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I know reject many of the positions of the Vatican on controversial moral issues, and that small sample reflects what’s shown in polls too.

And what does this mean? Is Truth meant to be compromised just because people can’t understand or make an effort (by whatever means possible) to learn their faith?

Why would this surprise me? Do you assume all atheists think religious people are incurious about the world around them? This is getting tiresome.

Yes, it is getting tiresome, for you came with a mission in mind that will have no effect with the people here on CAF. We are more informed than the average Catholic.

That’s fine. Even among its own laity the Vatican is failing to convince on issue after issue, so non-Catholics aren’t the only ones seeing the shortcomings in their arguments.
It has nothing to do with shortcomings but being misinformed on the issues.
 
I just stated abortion has one example.
There are a number of encyclicals that deal with abortion and the ones I’ve read did not have scientific/medical arguments. Can you tell me which one specifically had scientific/medical arguments?
And that is because they are not doing their homework,
They know the issues involved.
And what does this mean? Is Truth meant to be compromised just because people can’t understand or make an effort (by whatever means possible) to learn their faith.
That’s up to the Church. I’m simply stating what’s happening and how it’s affecting the formulation of secular law.
Yes, it is getting tiresome, for you came with a mission in mind that will have no effect with the people here on CAF. We are more informed than the average Catholic.
First you accused me of lumping in Catholics with bible believing Christians. I never did; I don’t; and was complimentary to the Church’s scientific contributions. Next you accused me of claiming that people blindly follow the Church. I never did and in fact that’s the opposite of my position. Now it appears you’re accusing me of what - coming here with a mission to deconvert people? Personally, I don’t care to and I don’t expect to. I’m not an evangelist for atheism.

If you want to know why I’m interested in these kinds of exchanges, all you had to do is ask. I come to these kind of exchanges to get the strongest reasons in support of various religions and their world view. There’s not much point to trying to get them from atheist forums, only straw men come from there. This is important to me because the majority of people in the world are believers. When presented with various reasons, I like to examine them rigorously.

If you don’t want to do that or don’t think it should be done in this venue, just say so.
 
Two American scientists, Dr. Callaghan of the NASA scientific team, and Jody B. Smith, professor of philosophy of science of Penascolla College, subjected the image to infra-red photographic scrutiny, and reached the following conclusions:
Pardon my intrusion, but I would like to comment on this part that was bold text and caught my attention.

It’s fair to say that philosophers of science are many things. One thing they are not is scientists. Second, there is no Pensacolla College (it was even misspelled), it is Pensacola Christian College. It is an unaccredited fundamentalist institution. Third, Jody B. Smith does not appear anywhere in academic journals for the philosophy of science that I could find, and it’s usually not hard to find people with even a single published paper. I think we can safely rule out Jody B. Smith as a credible scientist who is unbiased on the issue.

As for NASA, it is not within their purview to investigate supernatural claims. The “NASA team” seems astronomically improbable (sorry for that). If this isn’t a legend cycle or outright fabrication, perhaps someone or a few people from NASA took it upon themselves to investigate the claims independent of their NASA jobs. However, we have no usable information to know about that. All we are given is “Dr. Callaghan”.

What is more, there are slightly different versions of this story on the net where Jody B. Smith is not listed as a philosopher of science or affiliated with Pensacola Christian College. Also lacking in the other versions of the story are Dr. Callahan’s affiliation with NASA or a NASA team. In fact, in other accounts of the story he’s just listed as an American “Phillip Callahan” – and it’s not even the same spelling.

This shows all the signs of a legend cycle with progressive embellishments.
 
There are a number of encyclicals that deal with abortion and the ones I’ve read did not have scientific/medical arguments. Can you tell me which one specifically had scientific/medical arguments?

At this point I am not refering to encyclicals alone but other secondary sources to be found on the Internet or via other sources (like books or EWTN) which has delineated the case for abortion based on the Church’s stance using science/ medicine/ natural law/ common sense (that life begins at the moment of conception). There are also atheists who are pro-life, do you think their reasoniing as anything to do with the Bible or God?

They know the issues involved.

As per the secular media. For example, have you ever heard much talk of adult stem cell research on T.V. or in any other media venue? Are you aware (and dissenting Catholics as well) that ESCR has been proven thus far to be completely unresponsive to treatments and cures, whereas with ASCR there has been a total of 70 or 80 treatments that have helped people with diabetes, chrones, paralysis. . etc. Hence, my reason for stating people are misinformed (or lack the wherewithal to seek the truth).

That’s up to the Church. I’m simply stating what’s happening and how it’s affecting the formulation of secular law.

It’s also up to the individual if they are truly seeking to be informed on the issues. Also your constitution states that all have the right to life, liberty and happiness. The first being life. And isn’t there something about “inalienable rights” endowed by our Creator in the Declaration of Independence?

First you accused me of lumping in Catholics with bible believing Christians. I never did; I don’t; and was complimentary to the Church’s scientific contributions. Next you accused me of claiming that people blindly follow the Church. I never did and in fact that’s the opposite of my position. Now it appears you’re accusing me of what - coming here with a mission to deconvert people? Personally, I don’t care to and I don’t expect to. I’m not an evangelist for atheism.

Never said it was a mission to deconvert people (although indirectly that is what you are doing), maybe this statement you made in the Hello thread (#218) can make you understand me a little better:

I want to make it clear that I never did nor will I ever think you do. I have a great deal of respect for a number of Christian scholars. I find most Christians are good and well meaning people. Surprisingly, I admire many of the institutions of the Church, particular the Jesuit order, Catholic Charities, etc. **It is just the creeds and dogmas that I want to see go away. (I know, kind of like playing tennis without a net or racquet but it can still be meaningful to toss a ball back and forth. **

How will it be meaningful if you wish to do away with the creeds and dogmas (which pertains to moral absolutes as well)? You obviously have taken a stance on many moral isssues opposite that of the Church. And you’ve also stressed erroneously that the Church (what she preaches through scripture and tradition, i.e., the deposit of faith) has vascillated on key moral issues such as slavery and anti-semitism as a means by which you and others can discredit her and the authority she has in proclaiming infallible moral decisions. Your purpose is to get us to go against her position.

If you want to know why I’m interested in these kinds of exchanges, all you had to do is ask. I come to these kind of exchanges to get the strongest reasons in support of various religions and their world view. There’s not much point to trying to get them from atheist forums, only straw men come from there. This is important to me because the majority of people in the world are believers. When presented with various reasons, I like to examine them rigorously.

I don’t have to ask, I just had to read your posts.

If you don’t want to do that or don’t think it should be done in this venue, just say so.
I think it is you who does not want to.
 
As per the secular media. For example, have you ever heard much talk of adult stem cell research on T.V. or in any other media venue? Are you aware (and dissenting Catholics as well) **that ESCR has been proven thus far to be completely unresponsive to treatments and cures, **whereas with ASCR there has been a total of 70 or 80 treatments that have helped people with diabetes, chrones, paralysis. . etc. Hence, my reason for stating people are misinformed (or lack the wherewithal to seek the truth).

Oops, I meant to say that ESCR has proven thus far to be completely unresponsive in treating or curing diseases.
 
Pardon my intrusion, but I would like to comment on this part that was bold text and caught my attention.

As for NASA, it is not within their purview to investigate supernatural claims. The “NASA team” seems astronomically improbable (sorry for that). If this isn’t a legend cycle or outright fabrication, perhaps someone or a few people from NASA took it upon themselves to investigate the claims independent of their NASA jobs. However, we have no usable information to know about that. All we are given is “Dr. Callaghan”.
I guess then you did not further your research as I was able to find Dr. Callahan (yes, there was a misspelling of his name). His full name is Philip Serna Callahan (I got a total of 76 000 hits typing in his name on Google) it may be why you did not get the information you were seeking. Now having done some research (although not an exhaustive one) I have found conflicting information (probably because I don’t have the full picture yet), but the information is still quite valuable for it does not discredit the miracle of the Tilma by no means. Jody Brant Smith in his book (“The Image of Gaudelupe”) describes Philip Serna Callahan as:

“professor of entomology at the University of Florida and a Biophysicist with the United States Department of Agriculture”.

books.google.ca/books?id=A3RglEgD7isC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=philip+serna+callahan&source=bl&ots=pL-cWk9YQ7&sig=j1hrZjQ9IeEpOy1MZKL6Yw-91d4&hl=en&ei=bNkzSvDJF6PoNJOd4P4J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPR11,M1 pg. xi

There is no mention here of his being part of NASA (but then I read other website articles and his name is linked to it). There is obviously a mistake (or some missing link). Needless to say this does not disqualify him in terms of reliability/professionalism of rendering a decision on the artifact in question. He has also written a book on the analysis derived from the infrared red-light of the tilma of Gaudelupe (to be found on Amazon, but out of print):

**“The tilma under infra-red radiation: An infrared and artistic analysis of the image of the Virgin Mary in the Basilica of Guadalupe (Guadalupan studies) (Unknown Binding)” by Philip S Callahan (Author) **

I also found this on Amazon:

About the Author:

Dr. Philip S. Callahan is a philosopher as well as a top-grade scientist. An internationally famous entomologist and ornithologist, he has been responsible for breakthrough discoveries in both areas. He is also an explorer who has walked across mainland China and the Syrian Desert, observing the intricate ways of man and nature wherever he went.

He entered the U.S. Army Air Force in 1942, and served two years in the European Theater of Operations during World War II. Hiking around the world after he war, he worked as a freelance photographer and writer. Later, he attended Fordham University and received his B.A. and M.S. degrees from the University of Arkansas and his Ph.D. from Kansas State University. He served as assistant professor of the Entomology Department at Louisiana State University and later joined the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Southern Grain Insects Research Laboratory as Project Leader for Insect Biophysics. He was also Professor of Entomology on the graduate faculty of the University of Georgia. In 1969 he transferred to USDA Insect Attractant and Behavior Laboratory at Gainesville, Florida. Callahan served as a full professor on the graduate faculty of the University of Florida, and on the staff of The Olive W. Garvey Center for the Improvement of Human Functioning, Inc. as an infrared systems and low energy consultant.

His research involved the utilization of nonlinear far infrared radiation by biological systems and its applications to insect control and medicine. He has developed theories of insect communication based on the waveguide characteristics of insect spines and has postulated that such spines are thermoelectret-coated dielectric waveguide aerials with the ability to receive short wavelength IR and microwave frequencies. His work in biophysics might best be called studies in insect molecular bioelectronics.

He is the author of more than 100 scientific papers and numerous books, including: My Search for Traces of God; A Walk in the Sun; Nature’s Silent Music; Ancient Mysteries, Modern Visions; Tuning in to Nature; and, Paramagnetism.

So we can conclude that he was not a member of NASA’s team (as again there is no mention of NASA in this biop). However, there is still mention of NASA’s involvement concerning the tilma:

“If one approaches the cloth of the tunic the colors of the image disappears. It is as though the image is suspended in air and not directly on the fabric. NASA also did the following experiment on the robe. They shown a laser beam on the side of the fabric and the laser beam neither touched the image nor the fabric of the tunic. The image seems to be “alive” above the fabric and can only be seen as one distances oneself from the tunic.”

artelexia.com/store/index.php?act=viewDoc&docId=15

To conclude, NASA does indeed have some involvement as it (or members of NASA) was also involved with experimentation/testings on the “Shroud of Turin”.

intra.whatuseek.com/query.go?crid=5b7907994c2a69a2&query=nasa
 
There are also atheists who are pro-life, do you think their reasoniing as anything to do with the Bible or God?
This is a red herring. However the atheists argue their position is irrelevant to the way the RCC does.
As per the secular media. For example, have you ever heard much talk of adult stem cell research on T.V. or in any other media venue? Are you aware (and dissenting Catholics as well) that ESCR has been proven thus far to be completely unresponsive to treatments and cures,
Accepting the claims for sake of argument only, even a few moment’s reflection shows this to be a vacuous argument. Various countries ban ESCR altogether or place severe restrictions on research or funding for it while its opponents have vigorously promoted and funded ASCR. You may as well claim that cadaver dissections didn’t provide any medical insights during the many centuries pagan Rome banned them.
Also your constitution states that all have the right to life, liberty and happiness.
No, it doesn’t.
The first being life. And isn’t there something about “inalienable rights” endowed by our Creator in the Declaration of Independence?
Yes, words written by Jefferson and in part edited by Franklin. Their Creator bears scant resemblance to your God.
Never said it was a mission to deconvert people (although indirectly that is what you are doing),
Nobody here is going to deconvert because of anything I’m writing. In the unlikely event someone does, they were going to anyway. I just want to discuss and if necessary cajole the best arguments out of people. I think you can agree that people in the 14% ought to pay attention to what the 86% are thinking. Maybe the 86% are curious about the 14% too.
maybe this statement you made in the Hello thread (#218) can make you understand me a little better:
I make no secret that I want religion to become less dogmatic over time. I’m far less worried about the Unitarians blurring the distinction between church and state than more traditional religions.
You obviously have taken a stance on many moral isssues opposite that of the Church. And you’ve also stressed erroneously that the Church (what she preaches through scripture and tradition, i.e., the deposit of faith) has vascillated on key moral issues such as slavery and anti-semitism as a means by which you and others can discredit her and the authority she has in proclaiming infallible moral decisions.
I most certainly did not claim that the Church vacillated on these issues. I claimed, and showed, that they initially got it wrong and corrected themselves later. As far as it being a part of the “deposit of faith” you’re begging the question.
Your purpose is to get us to go against her position.
No need. Roman Catholics are doing that on their own.
 
This is a red herring. However the atheists argue their position is irrelevant to the way the RCC does.

Please tell me then how do atheists argue their position differently than the RC? I was under the impression that Atheists believed that life started at conception just as the CC does. All life has inherent value no matter what stage of human development they may be in.

Accepting the claims for sake of argument only, even a few moment’s reflection shows this to be a vacuous argument. Various countries ban ESCR altogether or place severe restrictions on research or funding for it while its opponents have vigorously promoted and funded ASCR. You may as well claim that cadaver dissections didn’t provide any medical insights during the many centuries pagan Rome banned them.

Firstly, why have these countries (and which countries do you refer to) banned ESCR? Secondly, why is your president providing public funding for ESCR when ASCR is the one producing the results? Thirdly, why isn’t the U.S. media providing accurate information concerning stem cell research? It is thus deceiving the public (and confusing Catholics) by refusing to relate the failure of ESCR so to further their agenda, i.e., to discredit religion but most especially Catholicism. The liberal media is very good at projecting what it wishes.

No, it doesn’t.

So I’m mistaken in stating that somewhere on some document (the Declaration of Independence then; sorry I’m not American) there are written the words: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By the way I wanted to post this from the personal website of an atheist:

The day will come when we as a people will live out the true and full meaning of our dearest creed: All human beings are equal under the law. We will no longer deny the humanity and the human rights of preborn children. Freedom will cease being corrupted into the right of a mother to slaughter her innocent and helpless child within the sanctum of her body. The inhuman and barbarous genocide that is abortion as birth control will end. On that day, all Americans will be free at last.

compleatheretic.com/pubs/letters/980711.html

So do you agree? I mean these are secular reasons for being pro-life, correct?

Yes, words written by Jefferson and in part edited by Franklin. Their Creator bears scant resemblance to your God.

Well, that’s just your biased opinion, however, the fact of the matter is that if there is as the Declaration of Indepence states inalienable rights given to us by our Creator, then by dint of this statement, we has his creation have no right to decide who lives and dies.

Nobody here is going to deconvert because of anything I’m writing. In the unlikely event someone does, they were going to anyway. I just want to discuss and if necessary cajole the best arguments out of people. I think you can agree that people in the 14% ought to pay attention to what the 86% are thinking. Maybe the 86% are curious about the 14% too.

Anyone stating they wish to do away with our creeds and dogmas is not looking for a middleground, therefore all conversations are rendered useless.

I make no secret that I want religion to become less dogmatic over time. I’m far less worried about the Unitarians blurring the distinction between church and state than more traditional religions.

I much rather see a theocracy than the lunacy that will prevail if religion were totally eradicated or emasculated to the point of uselessness.

I most certainly did not claim that the Church vacillated on these issues. I claimed, and showed, that they initially got it wrong and corrected themselves later. As far as it being a part of the “deposit of faith” you’re begging the question.

You are trying to prove that she is not infallible when it comes to moral issues, even though we have reiterated again and again that the deposit of faith has not changed (only developed) and is separate from the wrongful actions that the Church over time has committed. She like individual Christians was tested and tried, and at times found wanting, it’s has simple as that.

No need. Roman Catholics are doing that on their own.
I know this already and that is why I state they are misinformed.
 
Please tell me then how do atheists argue their position differently than the RC?
Atheist arguments for personhood starting at conception often boil down to slippery slope fallacies and appeal to emotion.
I was under the impression that Atheists believed that life started at conception just as the CC does.
For clarity, life starts before conception since both the spermatozoa and oocyte are living. The cells we shed on a glass when taking a drink are life, but they’re not people. It is not life that people cherish, but people. People use “life” as a weasel word for “person.”

Both of these things are living, i.e. “life”

This is a person ====>http://web.newsguy.com/aileron/caf/baby.jpg … This is not a person ====>http://web.newsguy.com/aileron/caf/huit_bov.jpg

I support laws banning abortions beyond points in gestational development where medical experts would conclude that the fetus has brainwave activity – and I mean peer-reviewed journals not wishful thinking on the part of various advocacy groups. Drawing bright lines with analogs in other areas of biomedical ethics stops the slippery slope and appeal to emotion arguments.
Firstly, why have these countries (and which countries do you refer to) banned ESCR?
I wrote a paper on this, but you can look up the nations online. Several EU states, particularly the ones with large Catholic populations have banned it - Ireland, Germany.France, Italy. France partially lifted. The Bush administration couldn’t outlaw it but effectively ended it in the US with cutting off all funding and heavily funding ADCR.
Secondly, why is your president providing public funding for ESCR when ASCR is the one producing the results?
ESCR hasn’t had a chance due to bans in major research nations and prohibitive funding restrictions in others, while ASCR has been vigorously funded as an alternative — that’s what I wrote earlier. If some nations banned chemistry and others severely restricted funding for it, but at the same time these nations actively promoted and funded physics, would it be so surprising to see developments in physics but none in chemistry?
Thirdly, why isn’t the U.S. media providing accurate information concerning stem cell research?
Why isn’t the US media or media much of anywhere providing accurate information concerning much of anything at all?
It is thus deceiving the public (and confusing Catholics) by refusing to relate the failure of ESCR so to further their agenda, i.e., to discredit religion but most especially Catholicism.
It’s not been tested, so how can it be a failure? Religious groups are fighting against it tooth and nail. It’s hard and expensive enough to do research science, but to do it without funds and with politicians and PACs opposing you is just not going to happen especially when a funded alternative is available. We really don’t know its efficacy yet.
So do you agree? I mean these are secular reasons for being pro-life, correct?
There are secular reasons for restricting many types of abortions. But to the atheist’s text - it’s an appeal to emotion using the term “preborn children”. A blastocyst is not a child as the pictures here clearly indicate. I see valid secular reasons to prohibit abortions after the fetus has brainwave activity. When that happens developmentally would need to be determined by medical experts. Anything before this bright line would IMO lack secular reasoning and cross into religious reasons.
Well, that’s just your biased opinion
It’s not opinion, we have his letters you can check for yourself. He ridiculed the Christian interpretation of God. His vision of God had no trinity, never communicated with humans, never performed miracles, never influenced the world in any way after creating it. That’s why he used the word Creator not God. This vision of God was fashionable among the elites of the Enlightenment.
however, the fact of the matter is that if there is as the Declaration of Indepence states inalienable rights given to us by our Creator, then by dint of this statement, we has his creation have no right to decide who lives and dies.
Apparently the signers of the document didn’t think so. Abortion before the quickening was permitted under English Common Law. The signers of the Declaration had a perfect chance to outlaw abortion when they wrote the Constitution. They didn’t.
Anyone stating they wish to do away with our creeds and dogmas is not looking for a middleground, therefore all conversations are rendered useless.
Look at it this way… Wouldn’t you like the whole world to come to the RCC? But do you expect it in your lifetime? I’m not looking for middle ground, but a better understanding of people sharing the planet.
You are trying to prove that she is not infallible when it comes to moral issues
I’m not trying to prove it. Rather, I’m perplexed why people believe it and trying to make sense of it. Honestly, none of my RC friends or family believes that the Church is infallible on issues of morality – and it’s not because they’re ignorant of the claim. I’m wondering how much of the laity accepts this position? I’d be interested to see if there’s been polling done on it.
 
I’m not trying to prove it. (Of course you’re not)

Rather, I’m perplexed why people believe it and trying to make sense of it. (It has been explained to you in many ways on many levels with many words and you still choose to disregard and believe what you wish, not much I can do about this)

Honestly, none of my RC friends or family believes that the Church is infallible on issues of morality (Truth is not quantifiably ascertained)

– and it’s not because they’re ignorant of the claim.(Let me borrow a well-known phrase from a “Few Good Men” - “you/they can’t handle the truth”).

I’m wondering how much of the laity accepts this position? I’d be interested to see if there’s been polling done on it.(The Church is not a democracy but the body of Christ whom many a martyr and saint sacrificed for with their blood, sweat and tears so that that the Truth should prevail. If your Catholic friends don’t realize this they always have the option of leaving the Church :D).
 
Atheist arguments for personhood starting at conception often boil down to slippery slope fallacies and appeal to emotion.

layyous.com/ultasound/fetalbehavior.htm

Please take a look at these pictures and tell me that this isn’t a human/person?

For clarity, life starts before conception since both the spermatozoa and oocyte are living. The cells we shed on a glass when taking a drink are life, but they’re not people. It is not life that people cherish, but people. People use “life” as a weasel word for “person.”

But separate they do not make a human, and you well know that. I also know that when a woman is having a baby (not an embryo or blob of tissue) she will mourn the loss of that unborn child if she miscarries. Can you say the same of cells we lose on a daily basis? The fact of the matter is that you are the one weasling your way out of seeing what reason alone states, that a unique human being with all the requirements for life is created at conception.

Another thing I wanted to add: Why is killing a pregnant woman a double murder, but just killing the child is a “woman’s choice”?

Here’s what I found:

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes a “child in utero” as a legal victim, if he or she is injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines “child in utero” as “a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.”[2]

The law is codified in two sections of the United States Code: Title 18, Chapter 1 (Crimes), §1841 (18 USC 1841) and Title 10, Chapter 22 (Uniform Code of Military Justice) §919a (Article 119a). . . .

The legislation was both hailed and vilified by various legal observers who interpreted the measure as a step toward granting legal personhood to human fetuses, even though the bill explicitly contained a provision excepting abortion, stating that the bill would not “be construed to permit the prosecution” “of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf”, “of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child” or “of any woman with respect to her unborn child.”

So I guess then the basis for personhood depends on whether the child is wanted.

Both of these things are living, i.e. “life”

This is a person ====>http://web.newsguy.com/aileron/caf/baby.jpg … This is not a person ====>http://web.newsguy.com/aileron/caf/huit_bov.jpg

They are both human, i.e., a person, just in different stages of development. Moreover, ask yourself what came first, the baby on the left or the picture on the right in terms of human development? Do we not all of us develop this way?

Also,

If Donum vitae, in order to avoid a statement of an explicitly philosophical nature, did not define the embryo as a person, it nonetheless did indicate that there is an intrinsic connection between the ontological dimension and the specific value of every human life. Although the presence of the spiritual soul cannot be observed experimentally, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo give “a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of the first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person?”.[8] Indeed, the reality of the human being for the entire span of life, both before and after birth, does not allow us to posit either a change in nature or a gradation in moral value, since it possesses full anthropological and ethical status. The human embryo has, therefore, from the very beginning, the dignity proper to a person.

to be continued . . . . . 😃
 
Moreover, ask yourself what came first, the baby on the left or the picture on the right in terms of human development? Do we not all of us develop this way?
Are you saying that we are responsible to make sure that everything that could develop into a baby does so?
 
I support laws banning abortions beyond points in gestational development where medical experts would conclude that the fetus has brainwave activity – and I mean peer-reviewed journals not wishful thinking on the part of various advocacy groups. Drawing bright lines with analogs in other areas of biomedical ethics stops the slippery slope and appeal to emotion arguments.

“Contrary to what many non-scientists believe, human beings are not constructed in the womb - they develop. In fact, all the major organ systems are initiated within the first few weeks after conception. The process of embryonic development is a continuous process, with no obvious point at which the fetus magically becomes a “person.” In fact, the development process continues well after birth, including many characteristics that determine our personality or personhood. What are the stages in human embryonic development? Science tells us that the heart of the human fetus begins to form 18 days after conception.1 There is a measurable heart beat 21-24 days after conception. This is only 7-10 days after a women would expect to begin her menses. Since most women have cycles that can vary by this amount, they do not discover they are pregnant until after this point. Therefore, all abortions stop a beating heart, even “early” abortions. However, most abortions do not occur until 4-6 weeks after the fetus begins to form.”

So basically, abortion kills a living developing human.

And as for stating that brainwave activity be the criteria to which you determine the “personhood” of a developing human, I have this to say in reply:

“Defining personhood on the basis of brain development results in several problems. Brain development is controlled by the DNA, and so, is programmed to occur in a continuous progression of virtually indistinguishable events. There is no point at which the brain suddenly becomes functional. In fact, many aspects of brain development occur after birth. Most aspects of newborn personality do not emerge until weeks to months after birth. Therefore, a definition of personhood on the basis of brain development would allow for infanticide - at least through the first month.”

ESCR hasn’t had a chance due to bans in major research nations and prohibitive funding restrictions in others, while ASCR has been vigorously funded as an alternative — that’s what I wrote earlier. If some nations banned chemistry and others severely restricted funding for it, but at the same time these nations actively promoted and funded physics, would it be so surprising to see developments in physics but none in chemistry?

"But do stem-cell researchers really need the feds? Already there is nearly $4 billion in private and state monies committed to stem-cell research over the next decade, with another three-quarters of a billion dollars under active consideration.

Setting aside commercial efforts like those of the California biotech company Geron, consider a few examples of private funding for academic stem-cell research. The Starr Foundation is providing $50 million over three years for human embryonic stem-cell research at three New York City medical institutions, including the Sloan-Kettering Memorial Cancer Center. Weill Cornell Medical College, also in New York City, has established the Ansary Center for Stem Cell Therapeutics with a $15 million grant from philanthropists Shahla and Hushang Ansary. . . "

reason.com/news/show/34102.html

Why isn’t the US media or media much of anywhere providing accurate information concerning much of anything at all?

Because it’s liberal as I stated.

It’s not been tested, so how can it be a failure? Religious groups are fighting against it tooth and nail. It’s hard and expensive enough to do research science, but to do it without funds and with politicians and PACs opposing you is just not going to happen especially when a funded alternative is available. We really don’t know its efficacy yet.

The promises of ESCR are right now nothing more than hoped for possibilities. Successful clinical trials for people are years away at best. Why? The reality is that the scientific evidence so far does not support public statements.

First, one minor complication is that use of human embryonic stem cells requires lifelong use of drugs to prevent rejection of the tissue. Second, another more serious disadvantage is that using embryonic stem cells can produce tumors from rapid growth when injected into adult patients. A third disadvantage reported in the March 8, 2001, New England Journal of Medicine was of tragic side effects from an experiment involving the insertion of fetal brain cells into the brains of Parkinson’s disease patients. Results included uncontrollable movements: writhing, twisting, head jerking, arm-flailing, and constant chewing. Fourth, a recent report in the Journal Science reported that mice cloned from ESC were genetically defective. If human ESC are also genetically unstable, that could materially compromise efforts to transform cells extracted from embryos into successful medical therapies. Finally, the research may be hampered because many of the existing stem cell lines were grown with the necessary help of mouse cells. If any of this research is to turn into treatments, it will need approval from the FDA, which requires special safeguards to prevent transmission of animal diseases to people. It is unclear how many of these cell lines were developed with the safeguards in place. This leads to a host of problems related to transgenic issues.

icr.org/article/314/
Adult vs. embryonic stem cell success now quoted at 70 to 0

to be continued . . . . 😃
 
Fetal behavior during pregnancy | Dr N Layyous

Please take a look at these pictures and tell me that this isn’t a human/person?
I was making a point about arguments for personhood starting at conception. To counter, you show ultrasounds of a fetus in the third trimester?
So I guess then the basis for personhood depends on whether the child is wanted.
Re-read my rationale for personhood, and you can see for yourself that it has nothing to do with “wanted”. You are using arguments against me commonly used against people with different positions.
They are both human, i.e., a person, just in different stages of development.
No. The picture on the left is a baby human. The picture on the right is a bovine embryo.

Without analyzing the proteins or DNA, nobody can tell the difference between a human or bovine embryo. Is that what make a person a person? Molecular chemistry?
Moreover, ask yourself what came first, the baby on the left or the picture on the right in terms of human development? Do we not all of us develop this way?
I’m pretty neither of us grew from a bovine embryo.
If Donum vitae, in order to avoid a statement of an explicitly philosophical nature, did not define the embryo as a person…Although the presence of the spiritual soul cannot be observed experimentally
Lots of things “cannot be observed experimentally”. What differences would we expect to observe between a claimed “something that cannot be observed” and something that is imaginary?
 
The process of embryonic development is a continuous process, with no obvious point at which the fetus magically becomes a “person.”
This is a classic line drawing fallacy.
Brrain development is controlled by the DNA, and so, is programmed to occur in a continuous progression of virtually indistinguishable events. There is no point at which the brain suddenly becomes functional.
This is another classic line drawing fallacy.
Therefore, a definition of personhood on the basis of brain development would allow for infanticide - at least through the first month."
:rolleyes:
But do stem-cell researchers really need the feds? Already there is nearly $4 billion in private and state monies committed to stem-cell research over the next decade
In order to have treatments now, I think they would have needed that funding over the last decade, not the next.
Setting aside commercial efforts like those of the California biotech company Geron
The Bush administration obstructed their approval for clinical trials. It wasn’t until a new administration came into office that the trail was approved.
Because it’s liberal as I stated.
All of them? Fox News is liberal? The Wall Street Journal is liberal?
First, one minor complication is that use of human embryonic stem cells requires lifelong use of drugs to prevent rejection of the tissue.
Nonsense. Embryonic stem cells obtained through SCNT require no immunosuppressive therapies.
Second, another more serious disadvantage is that using embryonic stem cells can produce tumors from rapid growth when injected into adult patients.
Wild speculation.
A third disadvantage reported in the March 8, 2001, New England Journal of Medicine was of tragic side effects from an experiment involving the insertion of fetal brain cells into the brains of Parkinson’s disease patients. Results included uncontrollable movements: writhing, twisting, head jerking, arm-flailing, and constant chewing.
You’re describing the symptoms of Parkinson’s disease, are you not? The article is available online at the NEJM. If you had checked your sources, the article actually shows some improvement in the patients who had the surgery, though it is an inconclusive study.
Fourth, a recent report in the Journal Science reported that mice cloned from ESC were genetically defective.
What is the issue of Science that has this article?
Adult vs. embryonic stem cell success now quoted at 70 to 0
Where is a list of the 70 treatments that have gone through clinical trials to demonstrate their efficacy? That is the standard you set earlier for ESCR, even though it could not proceed to clinical trial in many major research nations due to political actions. Yet ASCR did not have this restriction. So where are the 70 successful clinical trials for it? Where is the list?
 
Josie, Jam,

Thanks for the links on the tilma. Engrossing stuff; However (and I really don’t want to get into a google-scholarship competition) it’s still just people repeating second hand anecdotes without any information about where in came from or how reliable it is. Or even whether it’s just been made up.

So the points made by aileron are quite valid; a legend can go round the world while the truth is still getting its boots on. Scientists are professional people; if they do serious research, they write it up, and have it reviewed and published in recognised journals, and share it with the scientific community. They certainly do this if they feel they have made a genuinely ground-breaking discovery, such as a pigment which is neither animal, vegetable or mineral, or has optical properties which defy the accepted laws of physics.

30 seconds googling about the Turin Shroud carbon dating can get you links first to a BBC story about controversies on the dating, and thence to this abstract on ScienceDirect which does seem to be an actual paper written by a real scientist and published in a real journal discussing whether the original carbon dating age was reliable (this paper argues that it isn’t) You need to pay to read the complete article (so I haven’t) but Elsevier is certainly a reputable scientific publisher).

It seems very hard indeed to come up with something similar written by Dr. Callahan, or indeed any of the other investigations done on the tilma.
 
Josie, Jam,

Thanks for the links on the tilma. Engrossing stuff; However (and I really don’t want to get into a google-scholarship competition) it’s still just people repeating second hand anecdotes without any information about where in came from or how reliable it is. Or even whether it’s just been made up.

So the points made by aileron are quite valid; a legend can go round the world while the truth is still getting its boots on. Scientists are professional people; if they do serious research, they write it up, and have it reviewed and published in recognised journals, and share it with the scientific community. They certainly do this if they feel they have made a genuinely ground-breaking discovery, such as a pigment which is neither animal, vegetable or mineral, or has optical properties which defy the accepted laws of physics.

30 seconds googling about the Turin Shroud carbon dating can get you links first to a BBC story about controversies on the dating, and thence to this abstract on ScienceDirect which does seem to be an actual paper written by a real scientist and published in a real journal discussing whether the original carbon dating age was reliable (this paper argues that it isn’t) You need to pay to read the complete article (so I haven’t) but Elsevier is certainly a reputable scientific publisher).

It seems very hard indeed to come up with something similar written by Dr. Callahan, or indeed any of the other investigations done on the tilma.
Please refer to post #226 it will help you in regard to who Dr. Philip Serna Callahan is. As for the other scientists mentioned they too can be found with a simple search on Google. All it takes is some determination to seek the truth.

P.S. The website for the Shroud of Turin indicated in a previous post as many articles concerning scientific testing (it is afterall the most tested artifact in the world).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top