Hello. I am seeking some advice on marriage issues

[floresco]

I stand by my words. If a spouse keeps breaking his marriage vows, no matter how hard the other spouse tries to win him/her back (a string of counsellers, marriage encounters, etc.), then sometimes the wisest thing is to let go of the marriage and let GOD TAKE OVER.

But you keep implying that Corinne’s marriage fits this situation and you don’t know enough to judge that.

 

[Ailina]

But you keep implying that Corinne’s marriage fits this situation and you don’t know enough to judge that.

Neither do you. You are basically telling her that she should accept abuse by a spouse because that is what good Catholics do. I disagree with that line of thought. Far too many people stay in emotionally abusive situations, which damages everyone in the family unit, not just the spouse. Children grow up modeling what they see, whether it is healthy behavior or not.

When Corinne first started this thread, her husband was in denial that lap dances were sex or even a big deal. He would not admit that there are anything wrong and would not acknowledge the hurt he was inflicting on his wife., that she was making too big a deal about it.

You keep saying “What is his side of the situation, we’re not hearing both sides.” Well, his side of the situation is that he has been caught with a naked lap dancer in his lap, whom he keeps contacting, breaking his commitment to be faithful to his wife. That is his situation, and it has been repeated over years. It is not a one-time event. That is intolerable behavior in a marriage.

The reasonable boundary that is drawn is that he no longer contact the stripper. If he does, it is an indication that HE has destroyed the marriage and is the one walking away, not Corinne. She should not feel guilt because she has made that healthy boundary.

 

[floresco]

Neither do you. You are basically telling her that she should accept abuse by a spouse because that is what good Catholics do.

I am saying no such thing. I am saying that she should thinking in terms of her husband’s salvation. I do not know what that general principle means in her specific situation. Putting up with abuse could very well encourage a person to be abusive and be detrimental to his salvation. Therefore there may be times when leaving is the right thing to do. On the other hand, there could be situations in which a spouse is sincerely trying to change, but slips up on rare occasions, and the right thing to do is be patient and encouraging.

I don’t know what Corinne should do. I don’t know and neither does anybody else writing in this thread.

 

[Ailina]

I am saying no such thing. I am saying that she should thinking in terms of her husband’s salvation. I do not know what that general principle means in her specific situation. Putting up with abuse could very well encourage a person to be abusive and be detrimental to his salvation. Therefore there may be times when leaving is the right thing to do. On the other hand, there could be situations in which a spouse is sincerely trying to change, but slips up on rare occasions, and the right thing to do is be patient and encouraging.

I don’t know what Corinne should do. I don’t know and neither does anybody else writing in this thread.

Some slip ups are bigger than other slip ups. Contacting the one person you are absolutely forbidden to contact in order to repair the marriage is a HUGE slip up, not a tiny one.

Corinne asked for advice, and people here gave it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is up to Corinne to decide what to do with that advice. Absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

If you don’t think people should give advice, then why are you even responding to this thread?

 

[floresco]

If you don’t think people should give advice, then why are you even responding to this thread?

My first reason for posting to this thread was that I was in a situation with some parallels to what Corinne described and my marriage survived. I wanted to give her hope through knowing that some marriages get past the sort of problems that hers is facing.

When I saw how bad much of the advice being given to her was, it seemed that the only kind thing to do was to warn her about it.

 

[Ailina]

My first reason for posting to this thread was that I was in a situation with some parallels to what Corinne described and my marriage survived. I wanted to give her hope through knowing that some marriages get past the sort of problems that hers is facing.

When I saw how bad much of the advice being given to her was, it seemed that the only kind thing to do was to warn her about it.

So are you saying that any advice that doesn’t agree with yours is “bad” advice? So even you are giving advice based on what you went through in your marriage.

Who knows what Corinne’s husband will decide at the end of the day? Maybe he will be like mine and run away. Or he might be like you and realize he made a huge mistake (well, many huge mistakes, really) and will stop contacting the stripper.

So long as he is in contact with her, though, there are three people in the marriage, not two. So long as he is in contact with her, you have to wonder what advice that stripper is giving him about his wife. Is the stripper taking the comfort role, and telling him his wife is such a B-t-h? I really do wonder about that.

 

[floresco]

So are you saying that any advice that doesn’t agree with yours is “bad” advice? So even you are giving advice based on what you went through in your marriage.

Who knows what Corinne’s husband will decide at the end of the day? Maybe he will be like mine and run away. Or he might be like you and realize he made a huge mistake (well, many huge mistakes, really) and will stop contacting the stripper.

So long as he is in contact with her, though, there are three people in the marriage, not two. So long as he is in contact with her, you have to wonder what advice that stripper is giving him about his wife. Is the stripper taking the comfort role, and telling him his wife is such a B-t-h? I really do wonder about that.

I’m saying advice based on assumptions rather than information is bad advice. And no, I did not give advice based on what happened in my marriage. I made a statement of fact, that it is possible for marriages to survive the sort of problems she is facing. This was not a suggestion about what she should do. It was encouragement for her if she were to decide to keep working on the marriage.

According to Corinne, her husband has stopped contacting the stripper. So no, we do not have to wonder about what the stripper is telling him.

 

[Ailina]

I’m saying advice based on assumptions rather than information is bad advice. And no, I did not give advice based on what happened in my marriage. I made a statement of fact, that it is possible for marriages to survive the sort of problems she is facing. This was not a suggestion about what she should do. It was encouragement for her if she were to decide to keep working on the marriage.

According to Corinne, her husband has stopped contacting the stripper. So no, we do not have to wonder about what the stripper is telling him.

Yes, so he tells her. She is struggling with trust. Can’t blame her there. Btdt.

My advice to her was to stick to healthy boundaries and expectations of behavior. That is not the same as saying “Dump the dude.” So I am giving good advice too, based on my experience.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Far too many people stay in emotionally abusive situations, which **damages everyone in the family unit, not just the spouse. Children grow up modeling what they see, whether it is healthy behavior or not. **

This is the part the everybody seems to forget. Mark and Corinne are so wrapped up in their own relationship, they are forgetting about the children. Teens have enough issues without getting involved in their parents’ marital problems.

 

[Corinne3]

I’m happily (most of the time) married and have been for 7 years we have two girls 1-6 year old, and 1-9 mo. old, (NFP between them plus two miscarriages) and one on the way almost 26 weeks pregnant. My husband is VERY devout but unfortunately it’s devoutly Anglo-catholic (continuing anglican) (no women priests or homosexuals, they say the rosary, pray to saints, have confession etc.) He doesn’t believe in praying to Saints (“their dead”) etc. but because he’s not “forced” to believe it it’s ok with him to attend church there. The ONLY thing we fight about is church I want badly to convert to the Catholic Church he says NO WAY!!! (he hates the Papacy and believes in the “invisible” church theory etc.) So as long as I try to convert he’s freaks out. So I’ve just decided to pray for him/my kids and myself. (and not to bring it up since he’s soooooooo against it) Hopefully it’ll change…“with God nothing is impossible”. St. Rita and St. Monica PRAY FOR US! I’ve gotten the “convert anyway” but I’m a housewife with (gonna be three) small children who don’t need to see daddy flip out all the time it would be more detrimental than good. (I would be in the church but my husband will continue to be on the attack daily) not a good thing.

There it is.

DoT

Hi Friend! Thx just so much for sharing this. Gosh you have little ones, You like me need to let go and let God handle our husbands, but you as me, probably are now wondering WHY we ever married a non-Catholic. I wonder why I married a non-Christian and why I didn’t find out more about him when I married, but I didn’t. Oh well. Live life.

I hope this is a warning for all Catholics, DO NOT MARRY A NON-BELIEVER. It will make your lives hell. And make sure your believer is a true one cuz if not, he’ll, she’ll, they’ll have affairs and cheat on you, and cause you so much sadness and grief in your family.

OK, my 2 cents said today.

Please pray for me, and my marriage to an infidel.

 

[Corinne3]

Hi DOT:

I really recommend EWTN TV station and also the very good book, “When Only One Converts”,.

God Bless You. YOU have given me such good and awesome advice. Thank you.

Luv,
Corinne

 

[Corinne3]

Hi Alina!

If my h was “swinging” I’d leave him too, if possible. You have been through so much friend, no one has any right to judge anyone else. We never know till we’ve walked in someone else’s shoes.

Try to see what Floresco is saying. My situation is much different than yours. My husband is not out right committing adultery anymore. He knows it’s wrong what he has done. I know he does, and I honestly think he is past the lying and deceiving me, and trying to live an honest life from here on. This is why I am sticking with him. If he was outright lying still and cheating, well, I’d have to see what else I could do.

For me now honestly the hardest thing is getting over so much hurt in my heart. It feels like it’s been broken in two. Sometimes the pain is so great, I can barely make it through the day. Other times, I feel OK, even great and happy. One day at a time I guess.

Thanks so much for contributing to this thread. Everyone helps just so much. I am sorry to hear what all of you have been through as well. Thank goodness for our faith, which keeps our lives in perspective!

God Bless!

PS I really recommend to everyone you watch Fr. Leo Clifford’s daily video reflections here on EWTN. It is soooo marvelous and is really a blessing to me. Here’s the link:

ewtn.com/faith/index.asp

Thank you so much everyone for listening and helping me!

 

[Corinne3]

Yeah, well, I gave up when my then husband told me he intended to start dating. On top of going out to visit the swingers he associated with in another city. Except I didn’t know he was swinging and doing other things with them, until I found the pics on his pass-word protected computer, which he forgot to shut off after our last big fight because he was going to see the swingers yet again.

There is only so much a spouse can take. The annulment decision I received just in time for Christmas re-affirmed the fact that I made the right choice. Especially for my children, because it wasn’t exactly a model of Christian marriage, was it?

Alina: I think you made the right choice too. If my h told me he intends to start dating, I’d be totally crushed. Like you were I’m sure. I am so sorry for all you must have been through. I was crushed to the bone when I found out 2 years ago my husband was “seeing” this strip tease slut. Totally crushed. I could not believe it.

I hope you are doing well today. How long ago did this happen for you? Do you have a full time job now?

 

[Corinne3]

Really? Where did I tell Corinne to give up on her marriage? Or anyone else. I did say that setting up healthy boundaries are essential, but that is not the same as giving up on marriage.

I facilitate a group for people broken from broken marriages. In far too many cases, people did not set up healthy boundaries earlier in their marriages, and put up with some very unhealthy behavior from spouses who ended up abandoning them after all. Sometimes there is nothing to stay for, and it would be a wiser decision to leave sooner rather than later. Quite often, the families left behind are facing massive debt from a selfish spouse who did not care.

I must also add that you too are offering advice based on your own experience. As is everyone here. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

That is great Alina that you are facilitating a group for people from broken marriages. God can really use you in this. I hope one day, it is my prayer that, if it is God’;s Will, my husband and I will be able to facilitate a group for couples, warning them of the dangers of porn, and how it nearly destroys marriages. Matter of fact, I can do this whether my marriage lasts or not. Others can be helped by what we have been through. We can be used as God’;s instruments no matter what our situation.

 

[Ailina]

Thanks, Corinne. I hope things work out and that your husband realizes all the good he gains by battling his temptations.

 

[Gloria1]

My h says since he did not have “sex” with her that he did not commit adultery

The little I will like to add here is that, Adultery is not just having physical intercourse with another person outside your marital home. Adultery can also be mental and spiritual. If you get a lap dance and feel good after that, you have committed adultery in your heart.

 

[Corinne3]

I totally know and realize this Gloria! Why do you think I am so devastated?

It really wouldn’t matter if my h did have actual IC with this woman of his dreams, he already did, IMO.

I am having a really hard time healing.

Please pray for me.

Sometimes I think our marriage is OVER, other times we’re back being a couple, then I feel (a), then (b).

It’s so hard. But I tell you, if it wasn’t for EWTN, I would be a lot worse.

I especially love Fr. Leo Cliffrord’s daily reflections.

Here is the link: I hope it blesses any of you reading this now, as much as it has for me.

ewtn.com/faith/index.asp
I watch it every day.

If not for my faith, what would are purpose be? Humans will disappoint us over and over again. MY HOPE is in God. In this life, I want to love like Christ.

God Bless

 

[Corinne3]

Catholic Friends:

Is this good advice? What do you make of it? Please let me know if you will. Thanks.

Yesterday when at my Christian counselor, (the same one I have gone to now for about a year, and the same one in which we 4 went together, her and me, hubby and his, from the same church, hence the 4 of us together) for about 4 times…anyway her and I met last evening. Note: They are Christian Protestant counselors from our old church…very alive and active and on fire in Christ…(We have no counselors at my Parish)…there are none. Don’t ask why not please. This is just out. I met with 3 priests from there previously. Nuff said. They have no counseling…which is unfortunate. It is what it is…Movin’ on…This is why we have counseling in another nearby church…a Protestant one. I am Catholic, H is nothing…non-denom I guess…raised nominal Christian…etc…

She, my counselor, essentially told me to ignore my h.Completely. HUH? She said not to initiate anything with him and just to worry about myself. Do not pay attention or give any more energy into what he’s doing or not doing, do not look at his phone records, do not even mention his men’s group, basically check out. She told me to just take care of myself and kids. Note: THIS is what my friends and family have been telling me for 2 years now, ever since my h’s affair. Nothing different here.She told me to LET GO of everything! Essentially just to ignore him, to make myself happy and not give a hoot what he’s doing.

How does a Catholic feel about this? Maybe my Catholicism brings me much guilt, I don’t know but I feel maybe it is.

I feel for some reason I should put up with **** and endless stuff, just cuz I am a Catholic and because divorce is sinful…

She told me, perhaps because I am so miserable and because I cannot trust him any longer, that I should work on establishing a new life for myself. Come on after 22 years of marriage? Is it even possible?

How does anyone feel about this?

Thank you.

Sure I wish I could be wonderfully happy for the remaining 20 or so years of my life, but I have invested half of it already with this man, good or bad. Is it too late to expect another life?

I was sort of put off by her flippancy and lack of committment to marriage. I know she is committed to marriages, but after she has heard and walked with me thru all I’ve been through, she said she doesn’t blame me for a thing I am feeling…

I need some more more GODLY perspective here. Perhaps I should go to the nearby convent for advice…I feel I do not advice from the world, but from above…

PS I HAVE MET WITH MY PRIEST AND A FEW OTHERS TOO. ALL OF THEM HAVE SAID THE SAME THING. That I have every reason for an annullment. But none of them have really said anything more or further than this, except for one other pastor who said to me point blank that my h loves his sin more than me. And that he doesn’t love me. This was hard to hear. What if it’s true? What if a spouse doesn’t love their spouse? Is this reason to divorce? What does one do in this case? What if there is no adultery, just you feel they don’t love you? Then what?

 

[Ailina]

Catholic Friends:

Is this good advice? What do you make of it? Please let me know if you will. Thanks.

Yesterday when at my Christian counselor, (the same one I have gone to now for about a year, and the same one in which we 4 went together, her and me, hubby and his, from the same church, hence the 4 of us together) for about 4 times…anyway her and I met last evening. Note: They are Christian Protestant counselors from our old church…very alive and active and on fire in Christ…(We have no counselors at my Parish)…there are none. Don’t ask why not please. This is just out. I met with 3 priests from there previously. Nuff said. They have no counseling…which is unfortunate. It is what it is…Movin’ on…This is why we have counseling in another nearby church…a Protestant one. I am Catholic, H is nothing…non-denom I guess…raised nominal Christian…etc…

She, my counselor, essentially told me to ignore my h.Completely. HUH? She said not to initiate anything with him and just to worry about myself. Do not pay attention or give any more energy into what he’s doing or not doing, do not look at his phone records, do not even mention his men’s group, basically check out. She told me to just take care of myself and kids. Note: THIS is what my friends and family have been telling me for 2 years now, ever since my h’s affair. Nothing different here.She told me to LET GO of everything! Essentially just to ignore him, to make myself happy and not give a hoot what he’s doing.

How does a Catholic feel about this? Maybe my Catholicism brings me much guilt, I don’t know but I feel maybe it is.

I feel for some reason I should put up with **** and endless stuff, just cuz I am a Catholic and because divorce is sinful…

She told me, perhaps because I am so miserable and because I cannot trust him any longer, that I should work on establishing a new life for myself. Come on after 22 years of marriage? Is it even possible?

How does anyone feel about this?

Thank you.

Sure I wish I could be wonderfully happy for the remaining 20 or so years of my life, but I have invested half of it already with this man, good or bad. Is it too late to expect another life?

I was sort of put off by her flippancy and lack of committment to marriage. I know she is committed to marriages, but after she has heard and walked with me thru all I’ve been through, she said she doesn’t blame me for a thing I am feeling…

I need some more more GODLY perspective here. Perhaps I should go to the nearby convent for advice…I feel I do not advice from the world, but from above…

PS I HAVE MET WITH MY PRIEST AND A FEW OTHERS TOO. ALL OF THEM HAVE SAID THE SAME THING. That I have every reason for an annullment. But none of them have really said anything more or further than this, except for one other pastor who said to me point blank that my h loves his sin more than me. And that he doesn’t love me. This was hard to hear. What if it’s true? What if a spouse doesn’t love their spouse? Is this reason to divorce? What does one do in this case? What if there is no adultery, just you feel they don’t love you? Then what?

Corinne, it sounds like you are hearing the same thing from everyone (priests, counselors) so I am wondering if they have met with your husband without you and listened to what he is really saying that you may not be hearing? I am wondering if your counselor has gotten together with your husband’s counselor to discuss your situation, since you are all working together? Maybe they can see something you can’t.

In any case, what your counselor is telling you is to stop obsessing about your husband and start living for yourself. Not in a selfish way but in a healthy way that will allow you to heal. It sounds like your counsellor is suggesting you try doing something called “the 180”. It means you start turning your own life around and start growing as a person again, you start healing.

Michelle Weiner Davis, a anti-divorce therapist, originally came up with the concept. There is more about it from a website I used to visit, called Surviving Infidelity.com.

Here is a link to that website and what it has to say about the 180:

survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

 

[Ailina]

Just in case that link didn’t work, I copied and pasted it.

Q: What is 180 and how does it work? Submitted by Making It

A: 180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)

So here’s the list:

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.
4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.
5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your WS.
7. Don’t ask for reassurances.
8. Don’t buy or give gifts.
9. Don’t schedule dates together.
10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
11. Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue? No matter how much you want to!
15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the WS)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!
17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.
18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!
21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.
22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care!
30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”
32. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the OM/OW."