Hello, I'm an atheist

[Athrond]

Filius Prodigus:

Actually there is proof against Athrond’s assertion. See this:
adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Nonreligious

Against my assertions?Pardon me, but It confirms my assertions.

Christians total at 2.1 billion wich is about 33% of the world according to the site,. Granted, if you add islam you get “most of the worlds population”, but my point remains, wether it is 60 or 30 percent who don’t believe in the Christian God.

Sincerely
Athrond

 

[Catholico]

There is also another site that shows breakdowns of religious beliefs. They only show that 9% of the population in the U.S. does not believe in a creator. See this at: barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=2

Adherents.com’s survey may show more non-theists but Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, primal indigenous(animistic gods), Chinese traditional, and half of the non-religious category all more or less believe in some creator concept for the universe. That doesn’t leave much room for the atheists even if there are slightly more than in the U.S… Also many Buddhists believe in a creator even though purist sects do not.

Catholico

 

[VociMike]

predator CA:

Theists: Goal in life is to seek happiness. They want to have something to strive for, but they want someone, something always there watching over them to give them help, to give them peace, or even just someone to talk to when times get rough.

Given the self-sacrificial core of Christian teaching, at least, I think you’ve got a very big job to demonstrate this. What do you mean by happiness, anyway? Having fun? Doing what you want? Getting stuff?

Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact. They want to be happy, but believe the most effective and honest way to achieve this is to seek out and except the facts of the situation. They simply do not accept made up answers to the things we do not know, accepting that we haven’t yet discovered the truth, or perhaps never will.

Sounds more like agnosticism. Isn’t it the case that atheists actively claim that they know the truth, and that the truth is that God does not exist? Anybody who accepts that we “don’t know” would have to acknowledge that “God” is a possible answer.

 

[Catholico]

VociMike:

Given the self-sacrificial core of Christian teaching, at least, I think you’ve got a very big job to demonstrate this. What do you mean by happiness, anyway? Having fun? Doing what you want? Getting stuff?

Boy, that is nasty! You are trivializing non-theists. Non-theists love their families, country, planet. They aren’t all pleasure seeking dumbells. Their loyalty to people and causes comes from the heart. They seek others who agree with their values. This social consensus supports and extends what individuals in the group believe. God doesn’t have to figure into this. Unselfishness is not something strictly Christian.

Catholico

 

[VociMike]

Catholico:

VociMike:

Given the self-sacrificial core of Christian teaching, at least, I think you’ve got a very big job to demonstrate this. What do you mean by happiness, anyway? Having fun? Doing what you want? Getting stuff?

Boy, that is nasty! You are trivializing non-theists. Non-theists love their families, country, planet. They aren’t all pleasure seeking dumbells. Their loyalty to people and causes comes from the heart. They seek others who agree with their values. This social consensus supports and extends what individuals in the group believe. God doesn’t have to figure into this. Unselfishness is not something strictly Christian.

Catholico

I wasn’t making a statement in the form of a question, I really was asking a question. Further, the original statement about seeking happiness was in reference to theists, not non-theists, so I don’t understand how you got it turned around into trivializing non-theists.

 

[Pax]

Actually, God figures into the values in all men. The degradation of God’s law found in the world is due to the fallen nature of man. Nevertheless, all men share, at least to some degree, in the moral principles placed in man by God. It is as the apostle Paul says in Romans 2:14-15, “what the law requires is written on their hearts.”

 

[Catholico]

VociMike:

I wasn’t making a statement in the form of a question, I really was asking a question. Further, the original statement about seeking happiness was in reference to theists, not non-theists, so I don’t understand how you got it turned around into trivializing non-theists.

Well, this whole thread trivializes non-theist positions as if there was no way they could have values without commandments written on tablets of stone. That is how the thread started.

If I misread your intention, I must beg your pardon.

 

[Catholico]

Pax:

Actually, God figures into the values in all men. The degradation of God’s law found in the world is due to the fallen nature of man. Nevertheless, all men share, at least to some degree, in the moral principles placed in man by God. It is as the apostle Paul says in Romans 2:14-15, “what the law requires is written on their hearts.”

And you know this because?..

 

[VociMike]

Catholico:

Well, this whole thread trivializes non-theist positions as if there was no way they could have values without commandments written on tablets of stone. That is how the thread started.

If I misread your intention, I must beg your pardon.

Not a problem, not at all. I was once an atheist myself, one of those who stopped believing as a teenager. I certainly had values when I had stopped believing, even if they were rather selective. How much they were a product of my upbringing (both particular and the general culture), and how much a product of the law of God written into every human heart, I don’t know.

I just think the original post was a bit white-hat, black-hat. Everybody would acknowledge, I hope, that theists are also interested in truth, and non-theists are also interested in happiness. That’s why it would be better for the OP to further define his terms. That being said, I like talking to non-antagonistic atheists who are seeking truth and understanding.

 

[Pax]

Catholico:

And you know this because?..

The point that God’s moral law is written on the heart’s of men may simply be something we will either have to accept or reject for the purposes of this discussion. I accept the idea because an examination of cultures around the world demonstrates the profound commonalities shared by man. Obviously, there are many differences as well, but the shared taboos are too numerous to ignore. Moreover, as believers we have the inspired word of God, that I quoted from Paul, as further confirmation. This may not satisfy an atheist, but it makes more sense than anything else that I’ve read or heard. Many more things could be said on the commonalities within human cultures, but it would divert the thread to explore them. Whole books have been written on these kinds of things and there is simply too much material to deal with in this discussion.

 

[Pax]

Catholico:

VociMike:

Their loyalty to people and causes comes from the heart.

Catholico

And you know this because?..

 

[CatholicChef]

I disagree. My goals in life are to “be happy, seek the truth, and the facts.” I do “accept the facts of the situation and I don’t accept made up answers or things I do not understand.” Lastly, but most importantly, I don’t want “someone to watch over me and give me help”, I KNOW without a doubt that God is there watching over me. This does not make me needy or weak. It makes me a realist.

 

[Catholico]

CatholicChef:

I disagree. My goals in life are to “be happy, seek the truth, and the facts.” I do “accept the facts of the situation and I don’t accept made up answers or things I do not understand.” Lastly, but most importantly, I don’t want “someone to watch over me and give me help”, I KNOW without a doubt that God is there watching over me. This does not make me needy or weak. It makes me a realist.

  Or it makes you schizophrenic. Dr Michael Persinger at Laurentian University in Canada has produced feelings that there is a presence watching a person by manipulating magnetic fields around a person's skull. He says this happens in nearly 80 percent of the people he has run the experiment on. I guess you have experienced some such presence in order to say you KNOW without a doubt that God is watching you, and then saying that you are a realist. 

  As for myself, I don't *know for sure * if what is best in people "comes from the heart". I observe non-theistic people doing nice things for others, loving their kids and family, neighbors and country. It appears to me that their character which is formed from a good upbringing is the source of their good behavior. Your God could have written it into their hearts, but I seriously doubt it. 
 All I want for non-theists is a little respect. A couple of things that really get our blood boiling are saying that the earth was created 6,000 years ago and that we have no basis for ethics or morality.

Catholico

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

Athrond:

Against my assertions?Pardon me, but It confirms my assertions.

Christians total at 2.1 billion wich is about 33% of the world according to the site,. Granted, if you add islam you get “most of the worlds population”, but my point remains, wether it is 60 or 30 percent who don’t believe in the Christian God.

Sincerely
Athrond

Don’t be sly, now! You said “God”.

*Originally Posted by Athrond
But most of the earths population doesn’t believe in God. *

Now you say “Christian” God… why not change it again and say “Catholic” God? Definitions will vary, won’t they…

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

Catholico:

Or it makes you schizophrenic. Dr Michael Persinger at Laurentian University in Canada has produced feelings that there is a presence watching a person by manipulating magnetic fields around a person’s skull. He says this happens in nearly 80 percent of the people he has run the experiment on.

This is humorous.

1. You are asserting that the millions out there (here) believing in God’s watchful presence are schizophrenic. —> Golden! This would rock the house at Saturday Night Live!
2. If doc Persinger’s experiment is relevant to religion, it would mean there are scientists giving shocks at millions of theist brains all around the world! (Heh heh… of course not) Look: just because you can produce that in the lab, does not invalidate Christianity, just like the provocation of emotions in the lab (and this has been performed too) invalidate romance. Just risible.

 

[Catholico]

Filius Prodigus:

This is humorous.

1. You are asserting that the millions out there (here) believing in God’s watchful presence are schizophrenic. —> Golden! This would rock the house at Saturday Night Live!
2. If doc Persinger’s experiment is relevant to religion, it would mean there are scientists giving shocks at millions of theist brains all around the world! (Heh heh… of course not) Look: just because you can produce that in the lab, does not invalidate Christianity, just like the provocation of emotions in the lab (and this has been performed too) invalidate romance. Just risible.

I didn’t say that it invalidates Christianity. I’m just saying that you shouldn’t be so cocksure that the feeling that someone is watching over you is God and not some other physical source.

Your example of emotions being produced in a lab invalidating romance is not relevant. Romance is about having an internal emotional state. Your implication, on the other hand, is that your feelings of being watched over have an objective counterpart and that you KNOW it for sure.

Many serial killers and other weirdos have thought the same thing and even hear God speaking to them. And they are really sure because they really hear an actual voice. Isn’t it their brain that is doing all the work?

Oh no! I know! It is the devil posing as God!

Catholico

 

[son_of_Our_Lady]

I can completely appreciate where atheists come from.
Believing in religion is harder than studying dark matter, that’s why we have Faith. Faith is not a right or an obligation, it is a gift from God. Even people who have faith need to pray constantly to keep it, especially during the hardest trials in life.

Lemme tell a story that helps me keep things in perspective.

One day a religious man invited his atheist friend over to show him something amazing. When the friend arrived at the religious man’s house they both went down to the basement.
In the middle of the basement there was a beautiful model of the solar system. There were little moons spinning around on tiny metal arms, little lights strung on the walls in constellations, and tiny comets were flickering and swinging on fishing line from the ceiling. The detail was impressive and the little working model was quite well done.
The atheist saw that it was beautiful and asked how long it took his friend to make it. The religious man told the friend that he didn’t make the model, he went downstairs and just found it there one day. The atheist said it was impossible for the model to appear out of nothing and that someone had to have created it. The religious man then asked why a model of the solar system made of Styrofoam and light bulbs had to be created by someone, when the atheist believed that the entire universe, which contains the most complex designs (including life), has no creator.

I think about this story whenever I struggle with my faith.
Hopefully it will help others see our perspective

In Christ,

SofOL

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

Catholico:

I didn’t say that it invalidates Christianity. I’m just saying that you shouldn’t be so cocksure that the feeling that someone is watching over you is God and not some other physical source.

Your example of emotions being produced in a lab invalidating romance is not relevant. Romance is about having an internal emotional state. Your implication, on the other hand, is that your feelings of being watched over have an objective counterpart and that you KNOW it for sure.

You’re getting it wrong. Christianity presupposes that we DON’T know. Read the NT. It speaks of faith.

Catholico:

Many serial killers and other weirdos have thought the same thing and even hear God speaking to them. And they are really sure because they really hear an actual voice. Isn’t it their brain that is doing all the work?
​

Pol Pot and N. Ceaucescu also opined theism is bunk and were mass murderers. We can, therefore, return you the favor of comparing. Fun! Shall we now commence with name-calling? I’m sure we’ll have fun with that also. And we shall call it: “The Fallacy Game”. Cool… not!

Catholico:

Oh no! I know! It is the devil posing as God!

Yeah, make fun at what we hold as sacred. That will surely give a big push to your positions here.​

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

son of Our Lady:

I can completely appreciate where atheists come from.
Believing in religion is harder than studying dark matter, that’s why we have Faith. Faith is not a right or an obligation, it is a gift from God. Even people who have faith need to pray constantly to keep it, especially during the hardest trials in life.

Lemme tell a story that helps me keep things in perspective.

One day a religious man invited his atheist friend over to show him something amazing. When the friend arrived at the religious man’s house they both went down to the basement.
In the middle of the basement there was a beautiful model of the solar system. There were little moons spinning around on tiny metal arms, little lights strung on the walls in constellations, and tiny comets were flickering and swinging on fishing line from the ceiling. The detail was impressive and the little working model was quite well done.
The atheist saw that it was beautiful and asked how long it took his friend to make it. The religious man told the friend that he didn’t make the model, he went downstairs and just found it there one day. The atheist said it was impossible for the model to appear out of nothing and that someone had to have created it. The religious man then asked why a model of the solar system made of Styrofoam and light bulbs had to be created by someone, when the atheist believed that the entire universe, which contains the most complex designs (including life), has no creator.

I think about this story whenever I struggle with my faith.
Hopefully it will help others see our perspective

In Christ,

SofOL

All I have to say is…

 

[Catholico]

Filius Prodigus:

You’re getting it wrong. Christianity presupposes that we DON’T know. Read the NT. It speaks of faith.

However, you did say:
“I KNOW without a doubt that God is there watching over me”
Knowing ain’t believin’, if you KNOW what I mean. Faith implies the possibility of error, KNOWing means you are 100% sure.

If you feel like I’m not respecting your BELIEF in religious experience, then don’t say that you KNOW God is watching you or talking to you. Because unless you get a recording or get it on film I’m not buying it as a real experience.

Catholico