HELLO - It's Been A While... Bridging the Gaps

[rinnie]

Roy5 what is more important who wrote the Apostles Creed or what the Apostles Creed is?

The Apostles Creed are doctrines that CAN be traced to statement of the Apostolic period.
It is a summary of Christian Doctrine for baptismal candidates in the Church of Rome.

The Apostles Creed is a Creed that all of the Aposltes lived by, and died for and believed in with all of their hearts and souls.

Do we not all have a Creed that we live by??

 

[Roy5]

rinnie

No offense, but perhaps that's a problem in Catholicism and other forms of Christianity. They can seem so tradition-bound. I understand that, because the CC teaches that its beliefs have come from the Lord himself and from early councils that were guided by the Holy Spirit and cannot therefore makes mistakes.

This, I presume, is where I have a problem. The ancient days were so different in a million different ways. I have read the Church Fathers, looking for wisdom. Guess what? I found all manner of naivite, superstition, factual errors, weird logic, etc. What a disappointment when I expected enormous wisdom and insight. True, for their era they were well-spoken and obviously intelligent, but without a decent telescope and no microscope they lived by false beliefs of their age. Disease caused by demons. No mention of germs. Heaven up above the stars. No concept of maybe a billion solar systems. Interesting theology but often primitive, if you forgive the term.

Frankly, more and more young people become well-educated in college these days, and they are not ready to put their minds under the control of someone else, not even their church. They are spiritual and could stay with the church, but not if they have to believe the unbelievable. Did Padre Pio actually bilocate and levitate? I'm sure God could have arranged that, but most modern thinkers will find such claims wildly incredible. I am one who doesn't believe it. He probably was a devout servant of God, but some of the claims made about him are far-out. And he is a modern saint! When I watch the Lords on EWTN and hear of purported miracles by earlier saints, well....forgive my skeptism.

 I want and need a reasonable Christianity myself, as do millions of others. I want to remain a faithful follower of Christ, seeking to love and serve God and humankind, without having to swallow all the theological baggage that comes with it. So often it seems that the simple message of Christ - love - is undermined by the requirement to embrace all sorts of irrelevant and outdated dogma.

 Sorry about the disagreement. I do respect difference of opinion, which is why I think the Church should be tolerant of a divergence of views when it comes to matters of doctrine. Did Mary have other children? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't consider it important. Was she sinless throughout her life? Possibly, though I doubt it. Was Jesus speaking symbolically when he claimed to be the gate, the vine, the good shepherd, etc.? Of course. Maybe he was speaking symbolically when he said 'this is my body'. I think the church should allow people to reach some conclusions on their own and still remain in the real Body of Christ.

 God bless everybody.

 

[Dokimas]

yes! isnt it supposed to be us, that are conformed to the image of Christ, and to his Church that he set up, and not Christ and his Church comformed to our wants and whims?? God bless you and yours Rinnie

I agree we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. I can find several verses that tell me similar teachings on the subject of conforming to Jesus.

I don’t accept the understanding that the CC is Jesus and visa-versa so I would like Biblical verification that we are to be conformed to the image of the CC. Could you share such verses, please?

 

[benidict]

I agree we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. I can find several verses that tell me similar teachings on the subject of conforming to Jesus.

I don’t accept the understanding that the CC is Jesus and visa-versa so I would like Biblical verification that we are to be conformed to the image of the CC. Could you share such verses, please?

i most certainly can friend Dokimas. did not Jesus tell the apostles that whoever listens to them, listens to Him? is it not written if one does not listen to the Church, they are to be considered anathema? will find that one for you. and is it not written that the Church is the bulwark of truth? the Church Christ set up, is the CC. this is historically and biblically accurate. there has only been one Church, there is one Church. there will always be, only one Church. for unity to happen, all the Churches that have left, must reconcile themselves to Rome. we owe the protestants nothing. nor do we need to make concessions. we are not the ones in a state of seperation. i am not a bible only Christian, so i can also throw tradition out there. Athanasious, stated that to be saved, we Must follow the Catholic Faith. i know i spelled his name wrong. but he wrote a really good creed. im sure your familiar with it. even my parents have this creed in the back of their protestant hymnal… i think they still use hymnals. no they dont. but they are in the pews. they use the big screen up front. my bad. peace

 

[Jim_Dandy]

The “gaps to be bridged” – the subject of this thread – are between error and Truth. I embraced the Truth when I left Protestantism, agnosticism, and atheism and became a Catholic.

Protestantism is a guessing game, as in “Guess which of these thousands of conflicing and competing doctrines is true”? Take your choice. There is no Truth in Protestantism, there’s only opinion. No thanks. Been there, done that.

Jim Dandy

 

[Roy5]

Jim Dandy

 I honestly appreciate your position. Many people have the need to know the absolute truth, which is why Catholicism and evangelical Protestantism pick up new followers continuously. 

 There are many of us, however, who have no problem with vast areas of uncertainty. Our faith is not based on knowledge but on faith. God and this marvelous, miraculous, mammoth, and mysterious universe are beyond human understanding. That's what makes God God. I know that someday "He'll make it plain to me" - and that's sufficient.

 Meanwhile, my attraction to 'big tent' Christianity is that I don't have to accept the doctrines of any one church but can explore, examine, investigate, and meditate. There's great excitement and freedom in that for me. For those who can embrace traditional Catholicism or fundamentalist Protestantism, fine. But neither seems to be for me. I treasure the right to 'think and let think'. I simply don't feel the need to take a position on various issues that seem to get many CAFers and others worked up. They can seem petty in today's world when we need understanding and reconciliation so badly. I may not agree with my Hindu brother or Buddhist sister, but I suspect that if they practice love above all they'll get to paradise as quick as I will. Matt. 25:31-46. Nothing about doctrine or church affiliation in those verses.

 What I have to guard against is a resentment of those who preach at me that unless I join their church I am less favored by God, or have less truth, or I'm not a good Christian. I refer them to Matt. 7:1-2. I'll take my chances with the assurance that God is truly our loving and forgiving Lord.

 

[benidict]

The “gaps to be bridged” – the subject of this thread – are between error and Truth. I embraced the Truth when I left Protestantism, agnosticism, and atheism and became a Catholic.

Protestantism is a guessing game, as in “Guess which of these thousands of conflicing and competing doctrines is true”? Take your choice. There is no Truth in Protestantism, there’s only opinion. No thanks. Been there, done that.

Jim Dandy

 

[Dokimas]

i most certainly can friend Dokimas. did not Jesus tell the apostles that whoever listens to them, listens to Him? is it not written if one does not listen to the Church, they are to be considered anathema? will find that one for you. and is it not written that the Church is the bulwark of truth? the Church Christ set up, is the CC. this is historically and biblically accurate. there has only been one Church, there is one Church. there will always be, only one Church. for unity to happen, all the Churches that have left, must reconcile themselves to Rome. we owe the protestants nothing. nor do we need to make concessions. we are not the ones in a state of seperation. i am not a bible only Christian, so i can also throw tradition out there. Athanasious, stated that to be saved, we Must follow the Catholic Faith. i know i spelled his name wrong. but he wrote a really good creed. im sure your familiar with it. even my parents have this creed in the back of their protestant hymnal… i think they still use hymnals. no they dont. but they are in the pews. they use the big screen up front. my bad. peace

Please supply Book, chapter and verse, then we have specifics to discuss. Thank you.

 

[jmcrae]

So, why can’t we have greater freedom when it comes to doctrine? I, for example, find nothing in scripture (or even tradition) that insists that Mary lived a sinless life.

She was the Ark of the New Covenant - it is fitting that she is without sin, just as the Ark was without blemish.

Scripture says clearly that we all have sinned.

If we take that literally, it also includes Jesus Himself - yet, we know that He didn’t commit any sin. We also see many Old Testament and New Testament figures being called “righteous” so, clearly, we are not doomed to be forever sinful.

 

[benidict]

Please supply Book, chapter and verse, then we have specifics to discuss. Thank you.

not a problem at all Dokimas, Matthew 18:17, and 1st Timothy 3:15. your welcome. if you want to verse sling i can do this, but i really prefer not to. if your questioning my ability to find things in the bible, have no fear. im a former baptist, so verse swapping comes natural. Peace

 

[benedictus2]

Hello All,
It has been a LONG while since I have been here but I am back - for now… Don’t know if any of y’all will know me but I am here to help answer / ask questions while try to bridge a gap of understanding between us non-catholics and catholics.

I feel with a bit of unity we can become such a powerhouse the world has never seen and Christ’s light could shine that much brighter. But there are some big canyons that some find hard to bridge.

Do any of you ever think it will be possible to bridge the gaps?

If you mean by bridging the gap is when all Christians are united as one flock under one shepherd, the answer is of course yes if God so wills it.

But when that does happen, then that means everyone has become Catholic. That is the only way unity can be achieved, when everyone is in communion with Rome.

 

[benedictus2]

I think that the gap can be bridged, but only if Catholicism adopts more of a ‘big tent’ position.

But the Catholic Church has always adopted the big tent position. The Catholic Church is a big tent.

BUT… and here is the sticking point… you can’t bring you tent with you because there is no need for it.

 

[benedictus2]

rinnie

No offense, but perhaps that's a problem in Catholicism and other forms of Christianity. They can seem so tradition-bound..

The problem is not the tradition-bound. The issue is Tuth. If the Tradition is true then why should it be a problem. Only those who prefer the cushy lies will find that a problem.

People who have a problem with that are usually relativists who have lost sight of the truth.

 

[Dokimas]

First:

[SIGN]Doki: I don’t accept the understanding that the CC is Jesus and visa-versa so I would like Biblical verification that we are to be conformed to the image of the CC. Could you share such verses, please? [/SIGN]

Next:

[SIGN]Benidict: i most certainly can friend Dokimas. did not Jesus tell the apostles that whoever listens to them, listens to Him? is it not written if one does not listen to the Church, they are to be considered anathema? will find that one for you. and is it not written that the Church is the bulwark of truth? the Church Christ set up, is the CC. this is historically and biblically accurate.[/SIGN]

Third:

[SIGN]Doki: Please supply Book, chapter and verse, then we have specifics to discuss. Thank you.
[/SIGN]

Last:

not a problem at all Dokimas, Matthew 18:17, and 1st Timothy 3:15. your welcome. if you want to verse sling i can do this, but i really prefer not to. if your questioning my ability to find things in the bible, have no fear. im a former baptist, so verse swapping comes natural. Peace

Matthew 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

This is true but where’s the evidence that this refers to your church? From reading my posts and the sharing my opinion on Biblical matters over the several months I’ve posted here, do you consider me a heathen or a tax collector?

1 Timothy 3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The church was established by Jesus for His purpose. The church is very important. This verse does not prove your church is the exact one mentioned.

Thanks for these verses. I hope it’s clear now that I wasn’t questioning your ability only asking for specifics, as I said, so we can discuss specifically. Thanks again.

 

[benedictus2]

Matthew 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

This is true but where’s the evidence that this refers to your church? From reading my posts and the sharing my opinion on Biblical matters over the several months I’ve posted here, do you consider me a heathen or a tax collector?

1 Timothy 3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The church was established by Jesus for His purpose. The church is very important. This verse does not prove your church is the exact one mentioned.

Thanks for these verses.

When those verses were written (in fact when the whole NT was written) there was only One Church - the Catholic Church and those who wrote them were the first members of the Church.

 

[Dokimas]

When those verses were written (in fact when the whole NT was written) there was only One Church - the Catholic Church and those who wrote them were the first members of the Church.

When those verses and, as you say, the whole of the NT, were penned, in the 1st Century, the term Catholic Chruch (as a proper noun) didn’t exist as far as I can tell from the NT.

BTW, I can see why you think as you do and it’s based upon you presuppositions. We all have presuppositions, so I’m not being unkind. I have differing presuppositions about the church Jesus started, that’s why we look at the same wonderful verses and understand them differently. However, Jesus is still God the Son, Who died for OUR sins.

 

[benedictus2]

When those verses and, as you say, the whole of the NT, were penned, in the 1st Century, the term Catholic Chruch (as a proper noun) didn’t exist as far as I can tell from the NT.

BTW, I can see why you think as you do and it’s based upon you presuppositions. We all have presuppositions, so I’m not being unkind.

This is the point when I challenge you to seriously study history.

I hope you will take that challenge.

have differing presuppositions about the church Jesus started, that’s why we look at the same wonderful verses and understand them differently. However, Jesus is still God the Son, Who died for OUR sins.

Ask yourself this, if Christ did establish a Church, that Church would still be here today because He gave the promise.

Which of the churches here now is it ?

 

[benidict]

First:

[SIGN]Doki: I don’t accept the understanding that the CC is Jesus and visa-versa so I would like Biblical verification that we are to be conformed to the image of the CC. Could you share such verses, please? [/SIGN]

Next:

[SIGN]Benidict: i most certainly can friend Dokimas. did not Jesus tell the apostles that whoever listens to them, listens to Him? is it not written if one does not listen to the Church, they are to be considered anathema? will find that one for you. and is it not written that the Church is the bulwark of truth? the Church Christ set up, is the CC. this is historically and biblically accurate.[/SIGN]

Third:

[SIGN]Doki: Please supply Book, chapter and verse, then we have specifics to discuss. Thank you.
[/SIGN]

Last:

Matthew 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

This is true but where’s the evidence that this refers to your church? From reading my posts and the sharing my opinion on Biblical matters over the several months I’ve posted here, do you consider me a heathen or a tax collector?

1 Timothy 3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The church was established by Jesus for His purpose. The church is very important. This verse does not prove your church is the exact one mentioned.

Thanks for these verses. I hope it’s clear now that I wasn’t questioning your ability only asking for specifics, as I said, so we can discuss specifically. Thanks again.

what my dear Sister Benedictus said should suffice. i wont beat a dead horse. she reads my mind anyway…lol! and i certainly dont mind at all. Peace to you and yours.

 

[Dokimas]

This is the point when I challenge you to seriously study history.

I hope you will take that challenge.

Ask yourself this, if Christ did establish a Church, that Church would still be here today because He gave the promise.

Which of the churches here now is it ?

I hope this response is not part of derailing this thread. I hope it’s part of bridging the gap:

I don’t have to ask myself your question, I have the understanding that Jesus’ church is as He said and still exists. As the NT mentions many local churches (seven mentioned in Revolation 2,3 and others mentioned try the writings of Paul), the many making up the whole, so that is true today. If we notice the writings to the specific churches mentions problems within that needed correction, so today every church most likely needs correcting.

 

[Dokimas]

what my dear Sister Benedictus said should suffice. i wont beat a dead horse. she reads my mind anyway…lol! and i certainly dont mind at all. Peace to you and yours.

And to you and yours. God bless you.