Hello

[lkddav]

Jesus said faith and action are necessary. Don’t take what He says out of context.

I didn’t take anything out of context. Never thought I would hear that out of a christian. LOL !

Jesus lied about prayers being answered.

 

[lkddav]

Can we refrain from using flying spaghetti monster (or tooth fairies) in relation to God? It’s starting to annoy me.

The same evidence exist for both. None.

If you can’t handle that, stop clicking on this thread.

 

[Annabea]

Well, 1+1 can = 3… so. Geesh woman! Either choose to be an atheist OR an agnostic. One who professes to not know is not claiming to not believe in god/a god. There is a difference. If you don’t believe in a higher power whatsoever, then just say you are an athiest. IN my opinion (just mine… not something to necessarily be regarded on this board), atheism is proving to be just as toxic as Christianity. I used to be a self proclaimed atheist (though with a better understanding now, I should have known as well to say I was rather agnostic)… now I seek to convert to Judaism based on my own subjective experience. Still, either you DON’T KNOW or you don’t believe in any god. There is the either/or. The former is to be agnostic and the latter is to be as dogmatic as… well… me (considering that I KNOW that God is a reality)!! Just trying to help you define yourself properly. *

Agnostic = I do not know Atheist= I do not believe. I do not believe because I do not know. Okay, I don’t want to get in an argument about this, its stupid. Many people will say the same thing. Please just take it as a figure of speech and be about your way.

 

[jam070406]

I stated that one place had better living conditions, but that was to emphasize that atheism does not equal poor living conditions like in China.

No, I stated that atheism was the cause of Christian persecution in China, and it is.

As a former christian I do now they are credited to god, yes. The fact that science may not be able to explain them right now does not give god the monopoly.

So as of now, based on what you just said, the claim could be made that any morality you have clung to could be the result of you Christian formation, based on the belief in God?

I cannot pick my morality, I haven’t been reset or anything like that. I removed my faith in god. End of story. I have the same morality. I don’t do drugs, I don’t smoke, I have premarital sex but I did as a christian as well, and I do drink alcohol. Too much isn’t good for me. How does this lead me to murder of christians? I do not follow this logic.

Without God there is no basis for morality. If there is no God there is absolutely nothing that says doing drugs, excessive alcohol or even murder is wrong. Nothing that you can point to or prove. Morality becomes what you as an individual deem is right or wrong in your eyes. God says murder is wrong but you, what basis do you make this claim? Your new ideology claims survival of the fittest. And you yourself stated you’d like to eliminate religion which in your eyes is bad for humanity. So eliminating the weak (in your eyes Christians) would be a benefit to society for you. The only way to kill religion is to kill those that profess it. So you see, you can’t have it both ways.

This is what ticked me off. jam proclaims that the slave labor camps and all the misery in China is due to atheism (not only in this post but also in the following ones). Here’s why atheism can not be a significant cause to this:.

Yes, all the misery that CHRISTIANS endure in China is the result of militant atheism.
We don’t need stats of blah blah blah, atheists here and blah blah blah atheists there, and living conditions, blah blah. It’s all a distraction on your part of the issue at hand. All you need is the testimony of the priests and Bishops that have suffered and still do, some of which were put in forced labor camps or prison for their beliefs. I provided you a link.

 

[lkddav]

Do you have any data to back this up?

Are you saying our emotions come from an outside source?

Your kidding, right?

 

[Annabea]

Dear Annabea.
Why would we spit on your shoes? Rather I think we would give you a compliment: congratulations, you are a princess, you are heir to the Kingdom, your Father is King of the Universe, He wants you to be holy, good, loving, patient, honest, pure and beautiful like He is all these things so you can also have His joy and live in the fullness of life, knwoing who you are, where you are going and why

My reason for believing is that God made me believe. It’s a mystery, I grew up thinking that there was a God but He was far away. I didn’t know Him. I lived my own life, my own way… in emptiness if I dare say this to you.
At one point when I was about 21 years old He drew near and took the veil from my eyes. He told me everything I have done and everything I am called to.
It changed all my life. Now life has become… authentic, full of wonder, love, miracles (big ones and small ones) beauty that i never saw… my choices are of infinite value … I take responsibility of everything I do.
There is no rational reason to become a believer, because faith is a gift of grace from God. I can testify to that. But once you believe… you see everything in a different way… Its like… the day has come.

Oh dear… I just saw… You asked about religion… that I wish not to talk about. But if you want to talk about the Lord, then I am in.

Peace to you now… and… I hope you stick around. You are certainly welcome. And you will see, we are not all that different from each other as you might think, since we are all just people.

Many do not like atheists.
My life is not empty, I am rather happy with life as it is. I am content.
I was a christian. But that was when I was a small child (still a child in your eyes but you know, too bad). I remember looking up at the clouds at sunset and thinking “That is heaven” What a foolish child I was!
I know I am not so different from all of you. Its the christians who are yelling “Devil worshipers!” at us. (Not that any of you have done that, I’m just saying.)

 

[josie_L]

The same evidence exist for both. None.

If you can’t handle that, stop clicking on this thread.

Oh, I can handle it, I just think it’s rude when atheists use such terms while on a predominantly Christian website. It shows a lack of respect.

 

[jam070406]

Are you saying our emotions come from an outside source?

Your kidding, right?

You claimed the origin of love came from the brain, she asked for your data. You apparantly cannot provide any.

 

[Jossy]

I said in my post right above yours. I am quite young, 12 (which usually makes people stop talking to me). I do not know much and I am very willing to learn what I can about religious beliefs and the world in general. I am an atheist of choice. My parents are religious.

Hello Annabea,
After reading comments from other forum members, including yours I will now share my own beliefs, which I hope and pray will help you understand why we Christians strive to be better people in this world.
Despite the many ruins, dead sea scrolls, etc, etc that exist and is mentioned in the
Holy Bible as proof of God’s existence before time, there are also things that have happened to me personally through the years that have strengthen my faith in God.
If God does not exist, this world would be in chaos. God is Goodness and Mercy. God is everything that make’s me want to know HIM more.
Being young and not knowing or believing in God is very sad.
I will keep you and non believers like you in my prayer’s.
God bless, Josey

 

[josie_L]

Oh god, it was 22 pages when I last checked.

Annabea, please stop saying “oh g*d”.

 

[jam070406]

Jesus lied about prayers being answered.

How?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The only documentation of the Bible’s truth is the Bible itself.

You might be interested in knowing that what we cal the Bible or at lest the New Testament portion was not considered the Bible Or scared writings when they were written. No one sat down and said he lets write a Holy Book. it was 300 years or so after the Gospels were written that they were declared by the church and placed in the Bible.

There are other things written about Jesus Mary Joseph that the Church said were not to be included in the Bible.

The word Bible means Book of Books.

So yes the bible can be used to give truth to its self as each book gives witness to the other books and they were all written by separate persons testifying to the same thing.

 

[Annabea]

Annabea:

Hello and welcome to CAF. I just have one question regarding your post…

Can you tell me where love comes from?

I don’t mean this sarcastically or facetiously, I mean it honestly and seriously. Love is very real and it has an origin just like everything does. It perpetuates life and happiness and must have a beginning.

If you can explain where love comes from without using God, I will be convinced there is no God.

Thanks,

~HC

Love is an emotion. Emotion comes from the mind. The mind is the ability to think. Thinking is piecing together things we have learned and using them to our ability. When the mind likes something, it usually shows happiness. All living things have minds (Um, not sure about the jellyfish or stuff like that). When you scratch a cat and hear it purr, that is happiness. Love is a stronger form of happiness “I love to go rollerblading.” or “I love you.”

 

[Annabea]

Annabea, please stop saying “oh g*d”.

Okay, I’m so sorry about that. That, was force of habit. I didn’t realize, just sorry.

 

[josie_L]

I didn’t take anything out of context. Never thought I would hear that out of a christian. LOL !

Jesus lied about prayers being answered.

No, He hasn’t, you just don’t understand what you’re reading. Jesus told us when we are to pray we are to keep in mind God’s will for us (thy kingdom come, thy will be done). Therefore, if I ask God to give me 1 000 000$ do you think because I prayed for such an objective it will be answered. And poverty is something that can be rectified through action, not prayer; in fact we produce enough food (in the West) to feed all of the hungry, what should we do then with this extra food? You need to discern when it’s appropriate to pray and when it’s appropriate to act (or do both).

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Yes, I do. The people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, believed in Jesus, and died for Jesus. Also, Josephus, Pliny the Elder, and Tacitus wrote about this Jesus, known as the Christ. Do you believe Alexander the Great existed?

On Josephus. The topic of the Testimonium’s authenticity has attracted much scholarly discussion. Louis Feldman counts 87 articles published during the period of 1937-1980, “the overwhelming majority of which question its authenticity in whole or in part”.

Pliny the Elder was a Roman scholar, naturalist, served in the military, and also in administrative functions. He compiled information and wrote a large work known as the “Natural History”.
The work is comprised of 37 books that include topics such as geography of the known world, earth phenomena, medicine and healing, botany, and zoology. Pliny gleaned information from dozens of earlier writers and lists them in Book 1 of the Natural History. He mentions the religious sect known as Essenes in Book 5 and also mentions Zarathustra the Persian religious figure and prophet in his work.
Pliny the Elder makes no mention of Nazareth, or of Jesus, or of the amazing things that happened at the time of his death. Considering the magnitude of the healing powers that Jesus of Nazareth possessed, the size of the crowds he attracted, and the fairly widespread fame he generated, it seems rather odd that Pliny the Elder doesn’t mention anything about it.

The works of Tacitus include but a single reference to Christus and Christians in relation to Nero and the burning of Rome. Rome burned around 30 years after the dates given for the crucifixion of Jesus and Tacitus was nine at the time. Tacitus could not have had firsthand knowledge of Jesus only of his followers.

 

[josie_L]

Love is an emotion. Emotion comes from the mind. The mind is the ability to think. Thinking is piecing together things we have learned and using them to our ability. When the mind likes something, it usually shows happiness. All living things have minds (Um, not sure about the jellyfish or stuff like that). When you scratch a cat and hear it purr, that is happiness. Love is a stronger form of happiness “I love to go rollerblading.” or “I love you.”

No, love affects a certain part of the brain, but that doesn’t mean that love is manufactured by it. Do you have data for this hypothesis? Some would say, like another atheist said to me today, that love is a process derived from evolution? Do you agree? Do you think we have a love gene?

 

[Annabea]

Hello, Annabae,

First off, welcome to the forum. I wish to compliment you on your intelligence. For a twelve year old, you express an intellect far higher and more mature than any other 12 yr old I have ever known. Your ability to string complex thoughts and interpolate data and associate reason suggests you are very bright! I bet you got straight A’s in 7th grade!


It is okay for you to wonder about life.

Frankly, you and I share much in common. I, as a Catholic, must constantly resist my own temptation towards disbelief in a world that tries to tell me at times that there is no God, while you, as an atheist, must resist your own temptation towards belief. We must honestly admit that if there are so many bright people on both sides of believing or not, we both can be tempted towards the other side, against our beliefs. Hence, we both struggle with life’s big questions.

I guess one question I would like to ask you is this:

Is it at all possible that there might be an intelligent creator?

How is it that when looking at the universe in reflection and wonder… The closest star in the night sky is roughly 4.5 light years away, that is, its light traveling at 186,000 miles per second takes 4.5 years to reach earth and that there are other stars billions of miles farther away… and in comparison… If you take soil and put it under a microscope, you will see millions of cells teaming with life and it all is orchestrated into an organized motion or rhythm… And, here you and I are in the center of it all, as human beings, with awareness and the abilities to think, reason, dream, hope, recollect and experience emotion, etc…

So in consideration of the absolute miraculous nature that is life which, is far beyond our humanly comprehension, and in consideration of the fact that there are smarter people than you and I, who believe and don’t believe, I ask you to honestly consider…

Is it possible?

If you can search your heart and answer this “maybe” or “possibly”

Then I might ask

What if it is true?

Peace and happiness to you.

I just graduated 6th. 11 to 12 is 6th grade and 12 to 13 is 7th. and thank you.

Is it possible?
Anything is possible, but we do not know.
What if its true?
Then every other religion in the world is wrong, and I’m just so happening to be debating the one religion is truly right, out of thousands. Right.

 

[josie_L]

On Josephus. The topic of the Testimonium’s authenticity has attracted much scholarly discussion. Louis Feldman counts 87 articles published during the period of 1937-1980, “the overwhelming majority of which question its authenticity in whole or in part”.

Never heard of this. But what’s the othe side saying?

Pliny the Elder was a Roman scholar, naturalist, served in the military, and also in administrative functions. He compiled information and wrote a large work known as the “Natural History”.
The work is comprised of 37 books that include topics such as geography of the known world, earth phenomena, medicine and healing, botany, and zoology. Pliny gleaned information from dozens of earlier writers and lists them in Book 1 of the Natural History. He mentions the religious sect known as Essenes in Book 5 and also mentions Zarathustra the Persian religious figure and prophet in his work.
Pliny the Elder makes no mention of Nazareth, or of Jesus, or of the amazing things that happened at the time of his death. Considering the magnitude of the healing powers that Jesus of Nazareth possessed, the size of the crowds he attracted, and the fairly widespread fame he generated, it seems rather odd that Pliny the Elder doesn’t mention anything about it.

Almost, certain I’m right, maybe it’s Pliny the younger though. Anyways, I know one of the two spoke of Jesus.

The works of Tacitus include but a single reference to Christus and Christians in relation to Nero and the burning of Rome. Rome burned around 30 years after the dates given for the crucifixion of Jesus and Tacitus was nine at the time. Tacitus could not have had firsthand knowledge of Jesus only of his followers.

We were talking of sources not witnesses, as such Tacitus spoke and wrote about Jesus.

Do you believe Alexander the Great existed?

 

[Annabea]

ANNABEA - TRY UNITARIANISM?

You may want to try the Unitarian church, Annabea. They welcome Christians, but also agnostics, atheists, etc. Traditionally, they got their name because they were Christians who revered Christ but did not accept the Trinity. But over the years they have broadened out to include many non-Christians. Some churches, for example, will read from the Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim scriptures on occasion. Unitarian churches often attract married couples of different religious traditions - when a Jew and Christian marry, or maybe a Muslim and Christian.

 I would recommend liberal Protestantism, also, except that you probably would find it too traditional. That's my affiliation. We have a special reverence for Jesus and for the Bible, but reserve the right to think freely, accepting this idea, rejecting that one. Liberal Protestantism exists to various degrees in most of the mainstream Protestant denominations, depending upon the local parish and the minister. Most Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc., are 'big tent' - that is, they welcome people of diverse opinions, but do find common ground in particular emphasis upon Christ and the scriptures. You may want to check them out. But try the Unitarians first. If you live in a large city, Ethical Culture may be another option.

I seriously doubt my parents would take me. Anywho, I am happy as I am, but thanks.