Hello

[happilycatholic]

Agnostic Atheist = person who believes that the lack of knowledge is reason for a lack of belief in god. I find it unlikely, but not impossible for a higher being to exist. Yes you can be both (a)gnostic, and (a)theist at the same time. One pertains to knowledge or lack thereof, and one pertains to belief or lack thereof. As such you can have a belief BECAUSE of knowledge, the same way you can have a lack of belief BECAUSE of a lack of knowledge.

I still fail to see how I am being insulting, if that is how what I am typing comes off then I do apologize. I’ve actually been making a conscious effort to remove sarcasm from my posts.

??? I could have sworn I said the difference between us is the atheists lack of belief (or unbelief as you put it) in god.

You tell me to prove loves origin, asserting that it is god and that since I don’t have a response it automatically lessens my position considering I am someone who does not accept something without adequate proof.

Do you honestly not see how someone who lived during the time of greek gods could say to an atheist “Prove the origin of lightning and thunder! Zeus clearly is the source, since you are unable to provide an answer your position is inferior to your own cause!”

You accuse me of being insulting, and you call me stupid, well played.

On a side note I also already stated that “I don’t demand proof” look back on my posts please. If something seems reasonable I will consider it, having proof is certainly a good way to make something reasonable. To me however a god just seems unreasonable.

I called your metephor stupid. I’m not stupid, but I’ve been known to say stupid things and you said something stupid. God exsisted even then and who’s to say whether I would have been exposed to God then or would have been pagan, gentile a moore or whatever. You’re just posing a rediculous metaphor on which to base something in an argument today. You however, plainly called me ignorant and basically told me I was a poor example of a catholic. Quite frankly, how would you know?

If that’s you trying not to be insulting, then I’d try a little harder.

See, that whole atheist - agnostic thing you bring up is just so rediculous.

*“If something seems reasonable I will consider it, having proof is certainly a good way to make something reasonable. To me however a god just seems unreasonable” *

Soooo agnostic and NOT atheistic.

You can’t even decide on how not to believe. Is it: God DOES NOT exsist or God COULD exsist, I’m waiting on proof? There’s only one path, take it would you? I don’t blame you for leaving yourself an out, but at least be an honest agnostic. k, thanks.

 

[jam070406]

Yeah – do you suppose it’s the lack of God or the communism? You don’t see European political leaders campaigning on how much they love Jesus the way they do in the USA. Agnosticism and just don’t care is the reigning religion in large parts of Eurpope, and they’re doing just fine human rights wise - better than the USA I might add.

Lack of God. What else would cause the government to supress the Church and muder priests and Bishops? The topic was atheistic China, please stick to it.

 

[AtheistEnvoy]

Oh please, why am I childish? You made the bold claim that history would be different if you hadn’t broken free from religion. A claim you couldn’t back and never can, so instead you use an ad homenim on me.

Not what I said at all.

I said

If those with ‘no real beliefs’ never found faults in ‘those that believe in God’

Then I went on to list things that COULD be different (not WOULD be different) according to issues directly addressed in the bible.

 

[mrhenrik]

Yeah, including the atheist government with their forced abortion, slave labor, murder of innocent people, suppression of liberties, etc. etc.
No thanks.

“An American Religious Identification Survey released in March of 2009 indicated that 15% of Americans – roughly 45-million – “say they have no religion” (up from 8.2 in 1990),”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States

14% in China, 15% in the USA. Now obviously this would make the US a much worse place than China considering the madness those 14% caused?

* 32% of Norwegian citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 47% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 17% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
* 4% answered that they "do not know".

Surely Norway must be the worst place on earth? If 14% atheism causes forced abortion, slave labor, murder of innocent people, suppression of liberties, Norway must have features such as “abortion is on fashion, treated as the cool thing to do”, slaves being traded like Pokemon cards, innocents being murdered on a daily basis and no liberties at all.

Lack of God. What else would cause the government to supress the Church and muder priests and Bishops? The topic was atheistic China, please stick to it.

Lack of God, excellent. 68% of Norwegian lacks god. Surely, when bad/immoral/sinful christians die they arrive in Norway?

Stop with the silly off topic remarks, China was never the topic before you brought it up and we could’ve dismissed that as off-topic as well.

 

[jam070406]

Is that the only difference between China and Western governments

Did you forget religion? You know that thing you atheists hate and would like to see stamped out, much like the atheist leaders in China. You know that thing that some in this very thread claims is the ill of all of civilization till man became “enlightened”

 

[jam070406]

“An American Religious Identification Survey released in March of 2009 indicated that 15% of Americans – roughly 45-million – “say they have no religion” (up from 8.2 in 1990),”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States

14% in China, 15% in the USA. Now obviously this would make the US a much worse place than China considering the madness those 14% caused?

Surely Norway must be the worst place on earth? If 14% atheism causes forced abortion, slave labor, murder of innocent people, suppression of liberties, Norway must have features such as “abortion is on fashion, treated as the cool thing to do”, slaves being traded like Pokemon cards, innocents being murdered on a daily basis and no liberties at all.

So?

Is the government slaughtering innocent Christians like atheist China or atheist Russia did? Millions, I might add.

 

[mrhenrik]

So?

Is the government slaughtering innocent Christians like atheist China or atheist Russia did? Millions, I might add.

But jam, this is my point! It doesn’t! It does no such thing, so atheism cannot be the cause of China’s crazy situation.

 

[josie_L]

**Yeah – do you suppose it’s the lack of God or the communism? **You don’t see European political leaders campaigning on how much they love Jesus the way they do in the USA. Agnosticism and just don’t care is the reigning religion in large parts of Eurpope, and they’re doing just fine human rights wise - better than the USA I might add.

It’s both. You cannot separate Communism from its atheist element. And Europe is not has far gone in terms of agnosticism/atheism to be on the same level as China. But my opinion is that if European secularization continues, we will see greater violations of human rights.

P.S. We have seen what Godless societies are like, and men who view themselves as gods have no fear (of anything).

 

[jam070406]

Oh, come on man, I’m not another anti-Catholic Protestant claiming sole scriptura. I understand the role of tradition and catechism in the RCC.

I did not “misquote” the Bible. I copied verbatim from a major translation. As far as taking it out of context, you really need better material. Put a large number of sections in the OT that offend modern morality into a context that makes it inspired by an all loving all beneficent God?

Simply put, there are parts of the Bible that Christians simply ignore. Some are because they are largely irrelevant except to scholars such as Chronicles, but a number of parts simply offend modern morality and don’t get read from the pulpit on Sundays.

You pick and choose OT passages which you’ve been told time and again applied to old covenent Jews, who had a clouded view of God and didn’t know Jesus. Get it yet?

 

[jam070406]

But jam, this is my point! It doesn’t! It does no such thing, so atheism cannot be the cause of China’s crazy situation.

Millions of martyrs attest otherwise. Even to this day.

 

[jam070406]

Not what I said at all.

I said

Then I went on to list things that COULD be different (not WOULD be different) according to issues directly addressed in the bible.

So you admit that it was your own persoanl anti-christian opinion?

 

[AtheistEnvoy]

I called your metephor stupid. I’m not stupid, but I’ve been known to say stupid things and you said something stupid. God exsisted even then and who’s to say whether I would have been exposed to God then or would have been pagan, gentile a moore or whatever. You’re just posing a rediculous metaphor on which to base something in an argument today. You however, plainly called me ignorant and basically told me I was a poor example of a catholic. Quite frankly, how would you know?

If that’s you trying not to be insulting, then I’d try a little harder.

See, that whole atheist - agnostic thing you bring up is just so rediculous.

*“If something seems reasonable I will consider it, having proof is certainly a good way to make something reasonable. To me however a god just seems unreasonable” *

Soooo agnostic and NOT atheistic.

You can’t even decide on how not to believe. Is it: God DOES NOT exsist or God COULD exsist, I’m waiting on proof? There’s only one path, take it would you? I don’t blame you for leaving yourself an out, but at least be an honest agnostic. k, thanks.

I’m sorry sir, I can’t put it any simpler to explain to you the difference between agnostic and atheist. I am sorry that it is confusing to you, let me try this route.

You are certain that god exists as such you are a theist. Personally you have adequate knowledge to ascertain that god exists, as such you are gnostic towards god. When we consider this, this makes you a |||Gnostic Theist|||. Now is the correlation any clearer?

Just because you put your belief into something doesn’t mean you are always 100% certain of it, I am not sure where you’re getting this from. I can honest to god say that yes it is possible that yahweh exists, in that same sense I can say it is equally as likely that any creature we consider mythical is just as likely to exist. I can’t disprove either so I can’t say for certain that they don’t exist. I don’t believe they do, but that doesn’t make it so.

As for my metaphor it pertains exactly to our argument, almost word for word. Simply exchange the words god with zeus, and (thunder and lightning) with love, it is completely irrelevant about the semantics of the metaphor, that is not the purpose of it. The purpose is to expose how infantile the argument you asserted was that since atheists can’t explain love they are not living up to their standards.

I believe you are getting to hung up on even metaphorically being compared to a pagan… this was not my intention in the slightest.

 

[mrhenrik]

Millions of martyrs attest otherwise. Even to this day.

That is complete nonsense. Re-read my quotes again. How can you state that lack of god is the cause of China’s problems when only 14% of their population lack god, knowing that Norway is doing very well and 68% of their population lack god?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Oh, come on man, I’m not another anti-Catholic Protestant claiming sole scriptura. I understand the role of tradition and catechism in the RCC.

I did not “misquote” the Bible. I copied verbatim from a major translation. As far as taking it out of context, you really need better material. Put a large number of sections in the OT that offend modern morality into a context that makes it inspired by an all loving all beneficent God?

Simply put, there are parts of the Bible that Christians simply ignore. Some are because they are largely irrelevant except to scholars such as Chronicles, but a number of parts simply offend modern morality and don’t get read from the pulpit on Sundays.

And that is a shame. Because nothing in the Whole of the bible is irrelevant. Yes it may offend our modern ears. but is still relevant. There is reason why God told the Hebrews to do those things that we find hard to except.

Just a thought… why should god have to explain himself? He is God. Oh and by the way if you were to attend Mass every Sunday for three years you would have heard round 70 to 73 % of the Bible.

 

[AtheistEnvoy]

So you admit that it was your own persoanl anti-christian opinion?

Do you agree with how slavery is outlined in the bible? How about that the earth is 6000 years old? How about that the earth is flat?

if you answered yes to any of these questions than my response to your question is No.

If you answered no to all of these questions than my response to your question is Yes.

 

[jam070406]

But jam, this is my point! It doesn’t! It does no such thing, so atheism cannot be the cause of China’s crazy situation.

Not to mention, it’s people like YOU that want to force out any sort remnants of Christianity that remain in the US or Europe. So yeah, subtle persecutions that happen already, like removing prayer from school or nativity scenes from lawns, could turn into full blown persecution and murder down the road if secular humanism and apostasy continue to grow, no doubt.

 

[mrhenrik]

Not to mention, it’s people like YOU that want to force out any sort remnants of Christianity that remain in the US or Europe. So yeah, subtle persecutions that happen already, like removing prayer from school or nativity scenes from lawns, could turn into full blown persecution and murder down the road if secular humanism and apostasy continue to grow, no doubt.

jam, you’re avoiding my question.

How can you state that lack of god is the cause of China’s problems when only 14% of their population lack god, knowing that Norway is doing very well and 68% of their population lack god?

Ideally, I would want all religion gone. I do respect religious people though, and I will fight for their right to practice their religion. However, I will not have my children, schools and laws affected by anything that cannot be proven.

 

[HiggDo]

I am quite young, 12 (which usually makes people stop talking to me). I do not know much and I am very willing to learn what I can about religious beliefs and the world in general. I am an atheist of choice. My parents are religious.

Hello, Annabae,

First off, welcome to the forum. I wish to compliment you on your intelligence. For a twelve year old, you express an intellect far higher and more mature than any other 12 yr old I have ever known. Your ability to string complex thoughts and interpolate data and associate reason suggests you are very bright! I bet you got straight A’s in 7th grade!


It is okay for you to wonder about life.

Frankly, you and I share much in common. I, as a Catholic, must constantly resist my own temptation towards disbelief in a world that tries to tell me at times that there is no God, while you, as an atheist, must resist your own temptation towards belief. We must honestly admit that if there are so many bright people on both sides of believing or not, we both can be tempted towards the other side, against our beliefs. Hence, we both struggle with life’s big questions.

I guess one question I would like to ask you is this:

Is it at all possible that there might be an intelligent creator?

How is it that when looking at the universe in reflection and wonder… The closest star in the night sky is roughly 4.5 light years away, that is, its light traveling at 186,000 miles per second takes 4.5 years to reach earth and that there are other stars billions of miles farther away… and in comparison… If you take soil and put it under a microscope, you will see millions of cells teaming with life and it all is orchestrated into an organized motion or rhythm… And, here you and I are in the center of it all, as human beings, with awareness and the abilities to think, reason, dream, hope, recollect and experience emotion, etc…

So in consideration of the absolute miraculous nature that is life which, is far beyond our humanly comprehension, and in consideration of the fact that there are smarter people than you and I, who believe and don’t believe, I ask you to honestly consider…

Is it possible?

If you can search your heart and answer this “maybe” or “possibly”

Then I might ask

What if it is true?

Peace and happiness to you.

 

[jam070406]

Do you agree with how slavery is outlined in the bible? How about that the earth is 6000 years old? How about that the earth is flat?

if you answered yes to any of these questions than my response to your question is No.

If you answered no to all of these questions than my response to your question is Yes.

I’m not a fudamentalist Protestant.
And your question about slavery has been answered over and over. So why don’t you preach about slavery to your athiest buddies in China? Or just move there, where the shackles of religion can’t touch you.

 

[happilycatholic]

??? I could have sworn I said the difference between us is the atheists lack of belief (or unbelief as you put it) in god.

Oh yeah, let me clear this one up too.

In the particular reply you posted this comment to, I was replying to you stating the difference between you and I is God. As if it’s His fault for not showing up to apease you in your quest for proof.

It’s your “unbelief”, meaning it’s all on you. You choose not to believe. But since God’s exsistance doesn’t rely on your belief in Him, our differences are far greater than you realize. You don’t even know where love comes from. So there’s a huge difference there. That would affect the way we raise our children or treat our friends and family. I could go on and on.

I’m not trying to make an enemy here. I have agnostic friends. (I’ve yet to meet a true atheist) I’m just trying to get an answer to an age-old question. I can be answered but not proven. Much the same way the question “does God exsist” can be answered, but not proven.

Neither side can prove it’s point, but I think it’s a little silly to base your beliefs on only believing in something that can be proven when you can’t prove the exsistance of love any more than you can the exsistance of God.