Hello

[jam070406]

jam, you’re avoiding my question.

How can you state that lack of god is the cause of China’s problems when only 14% of their population lack god, knowing that Norway is doing very well and 68% of their population lack god?

Ideally, I would want all religion gone. I do respect religious people though, and I will fight for their right to practice their religion. However, I will not have my children, schools and laws affected by anything that cannot be proven.

Because it’s fact. Here’s another, try carrying a bible into North Korea.

I guess that Norway doesn’t have to deal with pesky Christians, they solved their problem without having to murder them, good for them.

 

[josie_L]

That is complete nonsense. Re-read my quotes again. How can you state that lack of god is the cause of China’s problems when only 14% of their population lack god, knowing that Norway is doing very well and 68% of their population lack god?

You got your information from wikipedia, it’s not exactly a trustworthy source concerning statistical data. You’ll have to provide a source more credible than this. God bless.

 

[mrhenrik]

Because it’s fact. Here’s another, try carrying a bible into North Korea.

I guess that Norway doesn’t have to deal with pesky Christians, they solved their problem without having to murder them, good for them.

It’s not a fact, where is the evidence supporting your fact? Without evidence, your claim is nothing. China is quite far south. I think that’s what causes it. Far south means hostility towards christianity.

Norway does have to deal with christians, in fact 32% of Norwegians believe in god. They don’t get persecuted for their beliefs though, we defend their rights to have them the best we can. How can 14% no god create so much hell, while 68% no god creates the best living conditions in the world four years in a row?

 

[mrhenrik]

You got your information from wikipedia, it’s not exactly a trustworthy source concerning statistical data. You’ll have to provide a source more credible than this. God bless.

Wikipedia provides sources. Check those. I provided the links to the wikipedia pages. Oh, well, not the Norwegian one. Here it is: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Norway

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Do you agree with how slavery is outlined in the bible? How about that the earth is 6000 years old? How about that the earth is flat?

if you answered yes to any of these questions than my response to your question is No.

If you answered no to all of these questions than my response to your question is Yes.

no were in the bible is slavery out lined. there are verse that tell the master how he should treat his slaves. remember that the hebrews were held in slavery to the Egyptians for 300 years I don’t recall the age of earth ever being stated know an argument can be made that from the lineages for around 6000 years ago when Adam was alive but that is open to debate. the creation stories leave it open as to what is a day .

I have never read that in scripture either as a matter of fact I beleive that it was a middle age European belief not a biblical one.

 

[josie_L]

jam, you’re avoiding my question.

How can you state that lack of god is the cause of China’s problems when only 14% of their population lack god, knowing that Norway is doing very well and 68% of their population lack god?

Ideally, I would want all religion gone. I do respect religious people though, and I will fight for their right to practice their religion. However, I will not have my children, schools and laws affected by anything that cannot be proven.

But atheists can’t prove that God doesn’t exist (we at least have witnesses stating God did walk this earth, his name was Jesus, the Christ), so where does that leave us?

 

[AtheistEnvoy]

Oh yeah, let me clear this one up too.

In the particular reply you posted this comment to, I was replying to you stating the difference between you and I is God. As if it’s His fault for not showing up to apease you in your quest for proof.

It’s your “unbelief”, meaning it’s all on you. You choose not to believe. But since God’s exsistance doesn’t rely on your belief in Him, our differences are far greater than you realize. You don’t even know where love comes from. So there’s a huge difference there. That would affect the way we raise our children or treat our friends and family. I could go on and on.

I’m not trying to make an enemy here. I have agnostic friends. (I’ve yet to meet a true atheist) I’m just trying to get an answer to an age-old question. I can be answered but not proven. Much the same way the question “does God exsist” can be answered, but not proven.

Neither side can prove it’s point, but I think it’s a little silly to base your beliefs on only believing in something that can be proven when you can’t prove the exsistance of love any more than you can the exsistance of God.

Fair enough. I didn’t come here to shake anyone’s faith, I saw a statement that I felt was derogatory towards atheists and it prompted registration and my 2 cents. We differ in thought, nothing wrong with that. Where you find it silly to base beliefs solely on believing in something with proof, I find it silly to base beliefs on something without (EDIT) sufficient* proof.

Militant-Atheists (or ‘true atheists’ as you put it) are few and far between (meaning they are 100% certain) as that goes against the nature of atheism itself. Every atheist I have come across is 99% certain, and I’d put myself around there as well.

*The addition of the word sufficient I felt was a necessary one. Of course I don’t mean that the proof is insufficient for those of the catholic faith, but to everyone else.

 

[jam070406]

It’s not a fact, where is the evidence supporting your fact? Without evidence, your claim is nothing. China is quite far south. I think that’s what causes it. Far south means hostility towards christianity.

Norway does have to deal with christians, in fact 32% of Norwegians believe in god. They don’t get persecuted for their beliefs though, we defend their rights to have them the best we can. How can 14% no god create so much hell, while 68% no god creates the best living conditions in the world four years in a row?

You tell me, what are these men being imprisoned for?
What did many die for?

cardinalkungfoundation.org/prisoners/index.htm

 

[mrhenrik]

But atheists can’t prove that God doesn’t exist (we at least have witnesses stating God did walk this earth, his name was Jesus, the Christ), so where does that leave us?

venganza.org/about/open-letter/

There are no credible witnesses of god walking this earth, there are no credible sources describing Jesus Christ, and there is certainly no credible sources proving that if such a man existed, he was the son of god.

It leaves us with the fact that school teaches theories which can be proven. If you want schools to teach the Bible, then you need to prove that the Bible is true. Schools do not teach that god does not exist, because that can’t be proven either. Out of political correctness, schools doesn’t teach that it’s unlikely that god exists either, but perhaps they should.

 

[mrhenrik]

You tell me, what are these men being imprisoned for?
What did many die for?

cardinalkungfoundation.org/prisoners/index.htm

You are avoiding the significant parts of my posts. I’ll repeat it.

Norway does have to deal with christians, in fact 32% of Norwegians believe in god. They don’t get persecuted for their beliefs though, we defend their rights to have them the best we can. How can 14% no god create so much hell, while 68% no god creates the best living conditions in the world four years in a row?

 

[josie_L]

Wikipedia provides sources. Check those. I provided the links to the wikipedia pages. Oh, well, not the Norwegian one. Here it is: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Norway

Firstly, the first line dedicated on the topic in question, is this:

This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2007)

So as I stated in my post, this is not exactly reliable information (no worries, I will find the statistical data I need for myself).

Secondly, there is a lot of confusing and conflicting information, heres why:

Religion in Norway is overwhelmingly Protestant (Evangelical-Lutheran) with 82.7% belonging to the state Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway.[1] Early Norwegians, like all of the people of Scandinavia, were pagans believing in Norse mythology; the Sámi having a shamanistic religion. Due to the efforts of Christian missionaries, Norway was gradually Christianized in a process starting at approximately 1000 AD and which was substantially finished by 1150AD. Prior to the Reformation, Norwegians were part of the Catholic Church with the conversion to Protestantism occurring in 1536. Islam is now the second largest religion due to recent migration trends although the census shows that there are more people with no religious beliefs.[citation needed]

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[2]

32% of Norwegian citizens responded that “they believe there is a God”.
47% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.
**17% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force”. **
4% answered that they “do not know”.
**

Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College writes of several academic sources who have in recent years estimated atheism rates in Norway at 72%".**[3]

Now, let me get this straight, 82.7% are stated to belong to the State Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway. But wait, Phil Zuckerman states that atheist rates in Norway are at 72% (didn’t you say 68% earlier, oh, you added 47and 17 and 4 to give you 68%). And yet from the data, I’m told only 17% are actually atheists. This is confusing. Please in future, use credible sources. God bless.

P.S. I want to know where you got your info concerning China, please.

 

[josie_L]

venganza.org/about/open-letter/

There are no credible witnesses of god walking this earth, there are no credible sources describing Jesus Christ, and there is certainly no credible sources proving that if such a man existed, he was the son of god.

It leaves us with the fact that school teaches theories which can be proven. If you want schools to teach the Bible, then you need to prove that the Bible is true. Schools do not teach that god does not exist, because that can’t be proven either. Out of political correctness, schools doesn’t teach that it’s unlikely that god exists either, but perhaps they should.

Define “credible sources” and “credible witnesses”? Do you believe Alexander the Great existed?

 

[jam070406]

jam, you’re avoiding my question.

How can you state that lack of god is the cause of China’s problems when only 14% of their population lack god, knowing that Norway is doing very well and 68% of their population lack god?

Ideally, I would want all religion gone. I do respect religious people though, and I will fight for their right to practice their religion. However, I will not have my children, schools and laws affected by anything that cannot be proven.

Ok, I’ll address this question. You’re twisting and trying to divert attention away from the situation in China. It is a lack of God that has developed into an atheist hatred of God and everything associated with God. Therefore innocent people are imprisoned, killed etc. for practicing their Faith.
The fact that Norway (or the US) is not at that point of hatred yet (as displayed in China) doesn’t negate the fact that this atheistic hatred of God and Christianity is live and well and being put into practice in places like China, North Korea & Russia in the past.
You are not alone in wanting to eliminate religion. The atheists in China chose to murder and suppress to eliminate it. Perhaps you can live with it and haven’t developed the sort of hatred yet that could cause you to act as those in China. But I’m not sure why you’d disagree with their methods because it’s achieving the end that you also seek, the elimination of Christianity. I don’t know about the religious situation in Norway or how/if or in what ways, it’s being suppressed by the government.

 

[josie_L]

It’s not a fact, where is the evidence supporting your fact? Without evidence, your claim is nothing. China is quite far south. I think that’s what causes it. Far south means hostility towards christianity.

Then how do you explain Latin America and many parts of Africa which is abounding in religiosity?

 

[ntenaglia]

Firstly, the first line dedicated on the topic in question, is this:

This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2007)

So as I stated in my post, this is not exactly reliable information (no worries, I will find the statistical data I need for myself).

Secondly, there is a lot of confusing and conflicting information, heres why:

Religion in Norway is overwhelmingly Protestant (Evangelical-Lutheran) with 82.7% belonging to the state Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway.[1] Early Norwegians, like all of the people of Scandinavia, were pagans believing in Norse mythology; the Sámi having a shamanistic religion. Due to the efforts of Christian missionaries, Norway was gradually Christianized in a process starting at approximately 1000 AD and which was substantially finished by 1150AD. Prior to the Reformation, Norwegians were part of the Catholic Church with the conversion to Protestantism occurring in 1536. Islam is now the second largest religion due to recent migration trends although the census shows that there are more people with no religious beliefs.[citation needed]

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[2]

32% of Norwegian citizens responded that “they believe there is a God”.
47% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.
**17% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force”. **
4% answered that they “do not know”.
Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College writes of several academic sources who have in recent years estimated atheism rates in Norway at 72%".[3]

Now, let me get this straight, 82.7% are stated to belong to the State Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway. But wait, Phil Zuckerman states that atheist rates in Norway are at 72% (didn’t you say 68% earlier, oh, you added 47and 17 and 4 to give you 68%). And yet from the data, I’m told only 17% are actually atheists. This is confusing. Please in future, use credible sources. God bless.

P.S. I want to know where you got your info concerning China, please.

Obviously Phil Zuckerman can’t add.

 

[mrhenrik]

Firstly, the first line dedicated on the topic in question, is this:

This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2007)

The facts I cited have reliable references. That line is for the rest of the article.

Secondly, there is a lot of confusing and conflicting information, heres why:

Religion in Norway is overwhelmingly Protestant (Evangelical-Lutheran) with 82.7% belonging to the state Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway.[1] Early Norwegians, like all of the people of Scandinavia, were pagans believing in Norse mythology; the Sámi having a shamanistic religion. Due to the efforts of Christian missionaries, Norway was gradually Christianized in a process starting at approximately 1000 AD and which was substantially finished by 1150AD. Prior to the Reformation, Norwegians were part of the Catholic Church with the conversion to Protestantism occurring in 1536. Islam is now the second largest religion due to recent migration trends although the census shows that there are more people with no religious beliefs.[citation needed]

This is a common misinterpretation, coming from a strange practice in Norway. Basically, the country is a christian country, with christianity as it’s religion. Every Norwegian born by christian parents are members of the state church. Everyone was christian by default (not personal belief, but as a definition), and you have to submit a snail-mail letter with a baptism certificate amongst other things to sign out of that church. In the past few years the process has been easier and I am in the process of signing out myself. You will see these statistics changing drastically over the next few years though, as the government will soon either by a form sent to every citizen’s mailbox, or by a form at the bottom of the vote recipe, give people the option to circle YES or NO to the question “Do you wish to be a member of the state church?”

32% of Norwegian citizens responded that “they believe there is a God”.
47% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”.
**17% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force”. **
4% answered that they “do not know”.
Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College writes of several academic sources who have in recent years estimated atheism rates in Norway at 72%".[3]

Now, let me get this straight, 82.7% are stated to belong to the State Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway. But wait, Phil Zuckerman states that atheist rates in Norway are at 72% (didn’t you say 68% earlier, oh, you added 47and 17 and 4 to give you 68%). And yet from the data, I’m told only 17% are actually atheists. This is confusing. Please in future, use credible sources. God bless.

82.7 are members of a church they are automatically members of at birth. I never stated that 68% were atheist, only that 68% had no god. You stated that the 14% Chinese citizens having no god was the root to all their problems.

P.S. I want to know where you got your info concerning China, please.

What information? If you mean the statistics, they are found at the wikipedia site I linked to.

 

[jam070406]

You are avoiding the significant parts of my posts. I’ll repeat it.

Norway does have to deal with christians, in fact 32% of Norwegians believe in god. They don’t get persecuted for their beliefs though, we defend their rights to have them the best we can. How can 14% no god create so much hell, while 68% no god creates the best living conditions in the world four years in a row?

Tell me,
what, in your godless atheist mind, tells you that murdering Christians merely because their ideology is opposed to yours is a bad thing?
If you murder all the dellusional Christians you could have a complete godless society with the greatest living conditions in the world, advancements of technology beyond your wildest dreams. etc.

You’ve tried to prove time again how Christianity is bad, your living conditions are better, you’re smarter, etc.
So in your darwinian mindset why not eliminate all the lesser of humanity, the Christians and others that don’t think like you.
Survival of the fittest.

 

[mrhenrik]

Define “credible sources”? Do you believe Alexander the Great existed?

I suppose he existed. I’m not sure how credible the sources of Alexander the Great’s existence is, but if I was to dedicate my life to him and alter how I lived my life because of how Alexander the Great lived and preached, I surely would check the credibilities of those sources.

Ok, I’ll address this question. You’re twisting and trying to divert attention away from the situation in China. It is a lack of God that has developed into an atheist hatred of God and everything associated with God. Therefore innocent people are imprisoned, killed etc. for practicing their Faith.
The fact that Norway (or the US) is not at that point of hatred yet (as displayed in China) doesn’t negate the fact that this atheistic hatred of God and Christianity is live and well and being put into practice in places like China, North Korea & Russia in the past.
You are not alone in wanting to eliminate religion. The atheists in China chose to murder and suppress to eliminate it. Perhaps you can live with it and haven’t developed the sort of hatred yet that could cause you to act as those in China. But I’m not sure why you’d disagree with their methods because it’s achieving the end that you also seek, the elimination of Christianity. I don’t know about the religious situation in Norway or how/if or in what ways, it’s being suppressed by the government.

China has a sucky situation. My issue is that atheists are here given all the blame for their issues. Not only is that completely ridiculous because atheists make up 14% of their population, but there is no facts whatsoever to support your claims. Their attitude towards the christian god is a very bad one, on par with their attitude against opposing political issues. I hope you’re not going to tell me their political issues are because of atheism only?

The ends do NOT justify the means by my book. If I was given the choice to murder or surpress ONE christian to eradicate all religion from the world, I would not even consider it.

Religions are not surpressed by the government in Norway - it is by definition a christian government.

Then how do you explain Latin America and many parts of Africa which is abounding in religiosity?

My theory was obviously an ironic statement, but still just as credible as the theory presented with atheism being the cause of China’s problems.

 

[josie_L]

The facts I cited have reliable references. That line is for the rest of the article.

This is a common misinterpretation, coming from a strange practice in Norway. Basically, the country is a christian country, with christianity as it’s religion. Every Norwegian born by christian parents are members of the state church. Everyone was christian by default (not personal belief, but as a definition), and you have to submit a snail-mail letter with a baptism certificate amongst other things to sign out of that church. In the past few years the process has been easier and I am in the process of signing out myself. You will see these statistics changing drastically over the next few years though, as the government will soon either by a form sent to every citizen’s mailbox, or by a form at the bottom of the vote recipe, give people the option to circle YES or NO to the question “Do you wish to be a member of the state church?”

82.7 are members of a church they are automatically members of at birth. I never stated that 68% were atheist, only that 68% had no god. You stated that the 14% Chinese citizens having no god was the root to all their problems.

What information? If you mean the statistics, they are found at the wikipedia site I linked to.

This was an exercise in futility, I will find the statistical data myself. And it will not be from wikipedia. God bless.

 

[mrhenrik]

Tell me,
what, in your godless atheist mind, tells you that murdering Christians merely because their ideology is opposed to yours is a bad thing?
If you murder all the dellusional Christians you could have a complete godless society with the greatest living conditions in the world, advancements of technology beyond your wildest dreams. etc.

You’ve tried to prove time again how Christianity is bad, your living conditions are better, you’re smarter, etc.
So in your darwinian mindset why not eliminate all the lesser of humanity, the Christians and others that don’t think like you.
Survival of the fittest.

Murdering christians because of their ideology is a horrible thing to do. Why? Empathy. Heck, I was even a christian myself once. I identify with their situation. Not a single atheist I know (and I know many) would justify the killing of christians in China.

If I murdered all delusional christians, I would have a society built on murder and I don’t want that.

I have never ever stated that atheists are smarter than christians. Why not eliminate all the lesser of humanity? First off because I don’t think they are lesser, and secondly because I’m not a murderer and the ends never justify such means.