HELP! Defending Masculinity of God with stupid Liberal Professor!

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You are reduced to making ridiculous semantic arguments [ridiculous how?] and to name calling [such as what??]. You can continue to deny and twist Catholic teaching to support your own person world-views, but I don’t have to continue to listen to your illogical and unsupportable rants. [purely empty rhetorical bluster 👍] Take care.
LOL! I guess that confirms my suspicion: you can’t read.* And/or you’ve simply decided to take up the tonyrey method of covering up the inadequacy of your claims: respond to questions that might call your position into question with groundless ad hominem nonsense. 👍

*(And by ‘read’ I mean ‘read with comprehension.’)
 
LOL! I guess that confirms my suspicion: you can’t read.* And/or you’ve simply decided to take up the tonyrey method of covering up the inadequacy of your claims: respond to questions that might call your position into question with groundless ad hominem nonsense. 👍

*(And by ‘read’ I mean ‘read with comprehension.’)
It’s like the two of them are impervious to the numerous basic facts that have been stated over and over throughout this thread. No one on this thread has said that God is an actual male, but that we call God Father and call him “He” because that’s what Christ taught us to do. That one simple, easy to grasp fact, seems to fly right over their heads. At this point it’s time to give up trying to “reason” with either of them, nothing seems to sink in.
 
The grammatical gender of God, pagan deities, and angels according to the original texts must not be changed insofar as this is possible in the receptor language.
“grammatical” is the key word. It is quite clear that this instruction is **solely with regard to our use of language **to describe God, not because it has any literal meaning. Pagan deities (which don’t exist!) and angels (which are incorporeal) don’t have a gender and neither does God!

We call God “Our Father” because Jesus told us to worship God as our “Father in heaven” because He not only created us, but knows what we need and loves us as His children - not because He resembles males in any way. Jesus said “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth”, i.e. without reference to any of the physical qualities in this world. That is conclusive enough. It is a crude anthropomorphism to cling to the notion that God is masculine…
 
I haven’t been following this thread, but I came across this article which I thought was very good.

Part of the conclusion reads:
God wants us to understand Him as the Transcendent Source of creation, a truth better expressed using the language of fatherhood than motherhood.
Apologies if it has already been posted.

ricmat
 
I haven’t been following this thread, but I came across this article which I thought was very good.

Part of the conclusion reads:
God wants us to understand Him as the Transcendent Source of creation, a truth better expressed using the language of fatherhood than motherhood.
Elsewhere Cardinal Ratzinger (as he then was) wrote:
Consequently, we are not authorized to change the Our Father into an Our Mother: the** symbolism** employed by Jesus is irreversible; it is based on the same Man-God **relationship **he came to reveal to us."
In other words neither God’s Fatherhood nor the Sonship of Jesus has anything to do with human sexuality. It is a parental relationship symbolised by the father because the head of the family in the overwhelming majority of human cultures is the man. To call God “our Mother” in a patriarchal society would have been extremely confusing and another reason for men to reject the teaching of Christ. As it was, many were undoubtedly scandalised by His egalitarian attitude to women.
 
In other words neither God’s Fatherhood nor the Sonship of Jesus has anything to do with human sexuality. It is a parental relationship symbolised by the father because the head of the family in the overwhelming majority of human cultures is the man. To call God “our Mother” in a patriarchal society would have been extremely confusing and another reason for men to reject the teaching of Christ. As it was, many were undoubtedly scandalised by His egalitarian attitude to women.
Did you read the article?

The “patriarchal society” angle is not viable. Jesus didn’t have a problem saying things which upset people. And many of the parallel cultures worshiped goddesses. It doesn’t fly.

Although God has no gender, He is the initiator of love, just as men are. Yes, we’re talking about a relationship here. I agree with you on that. But God is the masculine aspect in this relationship and our souls are the feminine aspect - even for males. That’s why even the male saints referred to their souls as “she.”

I’m bowing out here now, my only interest in this discussion was to post the article which I thought the other posters might enjoy.
 
It is interesting when following this thread how many people insist upon a very narrow and literal interpretation of scripture and church law. It is what is called in US constitutional theory ‘strict constructionism’. Although I do not support an anything goes approach, I am surprised that, as one definition of Catholic is liberal, that people aren’t just a little broader in their interpretations. .
Again I will note the the OP never asserted the professors claimed God should be referred to as female in the Catholic rite. But she did seem to object to the use of female pronouns referencing God in any theological conversation. There is a strange rigidness of thought here. I am surprised there aren’t more creationists. Well maybe there are.
 
There have been some interesting comments by some. However, some seem to be on this thread simply to argue their point. I noticed my comments went (seemingly) unnoticed. OK you may have thought it a little presumptuous for a Muslim to comment - fair enough. However, Maybe as the outsider I may be able to act as an arbitrator?

Surely their is agreement that ‘He’ or more specifically ‘Our Father’ does not refer to a man in the sky? In Islam or Judaism, such thinking would send you out of the religion quicker than you could say Jehovah! Whilst such a belief may be less heretical given the person of Christ, it surely is still a false belief because he is viewed as fully man and fully God; male body but God’s soul, right? So God even in this belief is clearly no a man in any literal sense, agreed?

It has been put forward that Catholics use ‘He’ and ‘Our Father’ because Jesus did and for that matter every Pope, Bishop, Priest and Monk throughout Christian history. This is a compelling argument, surely? There were incidents were Saints may have used She but these were in specific situations of personal intimacy only - which I’ll continue in a later point. That said, if we are taking that argument literally then maybe the Aramaic masculine pronoun should be used or at least the Latin one? It seems pretty reasonable to everyone that is unnecessary.

To say that the patriarchal angle doesn’t hold is - and I do understand your point - is a little naive. God has put an order where masculinity are the attributes of authority and thus males are meant to take the responsibility of leadership - though not exclusively. This in no way detracts from femininity; it is not less just different, any interpretation suggesting otherwise is a modern calamity. Femininity is more inclined to love, like a mother, since you believe God is love then it would suggest femininity is more fundamental to the Divine nature - not that, it means God is woman neither does it deny the use of He as will be mentioned. And just to return to the first sentence: given the context of Judea 33AD a man would have been the only practical form a Divine being would take.

He is used in reference to transcendence as many have stated, and by authoritative sources which surely no lay Catholic can refute? It is term of respect rather like my current monarch would only be addressed by me as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, it would be incorrect to call her an endearing term like Liz because she is in her position of Majesty. If however, I was her husband and in private then calling her Liz would be appropriate because she is now in her position of wife. Calling her your majesty would not deny her mode of being as loving wife either. Saints have used she in private when intimately with God because this is appropriate as they call on the - as you have it - the Divine essence of Love - a characteristic of femininity.

Being in God’s image is not literal either but rather we share a sort of analogous character to His, right? He has characteristics both classically masculine (eg Justice) and feminine (eg Mercy). So it would suggest the soul is both; in balance. However as I have postulated, the Divine nature is possibly more feminine and thus we may say the ideal soul is also such? Since a relationship is sort between Beloved and lover then this may tell us something about ourselves? It is said that Eve was created from Adam’s rib thus man loves woman because he wants to be whole and woman loves man because she wants to return home. Could this be a metaphor for our relationship with God? When He is Beloved we are feminine and when He loves us we are masculine? Deep stuff, huh? Has anyone read Theology of the Body by HH Pope John Paul II?

Anyway, so it seems fairly clear (in public at least) God is referred to as He not because He’s a man, but because it is more becoming of His Majesty and because religious authority and tradition have also done so. Hope this helps and God knows best 🙂
 
This is a little related, but do you ever go to Mass and there are certain people who will not say “he” in reference to God? They will make sure to say “God” each time without using a pronoun. Yesterday, there were a couple of ladies behind me at Mass, and they always said God instead of he, no matter what, I think even for hymns and everything. What is with this?
You’d probably have to ask them why they do that. But do you think there is anything wrong with what they do?
 
There have been some interesting comments by some. However, some seem to be on this thread simply to argue their point. I noticed my comments went (seemingly) unnoticed. OK you may have thought it a little presumptuous for a Muslim to comment - fair enough. However, Maybe as the outsider I may be able to act as an arbitrator?
You are not the first member to think that their comment has been ignored for unfair reasons. And perhaps you are right. However, I have noticed that when discussions become heated and boil down to a handful of participants, the comment of an newcomer sometimes are ignored because the “combatants” are focused on one another.

The fact that your argument was complex may not have been in your favor, either. 😉
Anyway, so it seems fairly clear (in public at least) God is referred to as He not because He’s a man, but because it is more becoming of His Majesty and because religious authority and tradition have also done so.
Hmm… I agree that that the Catholic Church values tradition (as well as Tradition.) However, I think the Church’s instruction that traditional gender terms be maintained, and not deviated from, may reflect concern about possibly losing an important part of revelation which is not contained in less specific language.

However, I do think that you are onto something when you say that individuals may prefer to refer to God as He because they think it is becoming of His majesty. And this relates to an age old devaluation of women. The role of father (protector, provider, head of household) is not only valued but respected. The role of mother (nurturer, teacher, comforter) is valued but less respected. Both are loved, but in different ways.
 
There’s been a whole lot of discussion of why some people call God “she.” Why? We call God “He” because His Son called Him Father. It’s that simple.
 
^^I agree. If that’s not good enough, I don’t know what will convince you people…
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil8888 View Post
This is a little related, but do you ever go to Mass and there are certain people who will not say “he” in reference to God? They will make sure to say “God” each time without using a pronoun. Yesterday, there were a couple of ladies behind me at Mass, and they always said God instead of he, no matter what, I think even for hymns and everything. What is with this?
A good friend of mine does this…Sometimes she can’t even say the word God. Its just too painful for her to say the words or to think of God as male. She has a true reason for this, as she was raped by a man who mocked her faith during the ordeal. She also suffers from PTSD which is why she can’t say the words. Its still pains me to think that the man called him self God :mad: I hope that man meets God face to face.

Its always best to pray for any lady who does this, she maybe a living saint. God I hope I could be as strong as her.
 
A good friend of mine does this…Sometimes she can’t even say the word God. Its just too painful for her to think say the words or to think of God as male. She has a true reason for this, as she was raped by a man who mocked her faith during ordeal. She also suffers for PTSD which is why she can’t say the words. Calling him self God :mad: I hope that man meets God face to face.

Its always best to pray for any lady who does this, she maybe a living saint. God I hope I could be as strong as her.
Yeah I really hope those ladies I referenced were not involved in something horrible like that. I had a book called handbook for today’s Catholic or something like that and they actually mentioned that some people find it difficult to say God is our Father because of some bad experience they’ve had with men. But they said this does not necessarily represent a lack of faith.
 
Jesus was incarnated as a man, so it is clearly appropriate to refer to Him as male. But God is neither male nor female - God is not human and transcends such labels. We commonly use masculine pronouns to refer to God for a variety of reasons - both practical and cultural, but its clear from both Scripture and Tradition that God is not either gender, and that both genders were created in God’s image. For example, some parts of the Old Testament refer to God with feminine pronouns and feminine imagery, and some Saints have referred to God as our Mother as well as our Father. I would be troubled by an assertion that God is exclusive feminine, but I don’t see anything wrong with acknowledging that God transcends gender – that is entirely consistent with Catholic theology.
Intelligent comment! The use of both genders in different situations in the Old Testament is related to their different meanings in Hebrew apart from the gender difference itself. The masculine gender has little to do with authority or strength as is commonly thought. It is involved more with the “giver” as opposed to the feminine form which means the “receiver.”
 
It is interesting when following this thread how many people insist upon a very narrow and literal interpretation of scripture and church law. It is what is called in US constitutional theory ‘strict constructionism’. Although I do not support an anything goes approach, I am surprised that, as one definition of Catholic is liberal, that people aren’t just a little broader in their interpretations. .
Again I will note the the OP never asserted the professors claimed God should be referred to as female in the Catholic rite. But she did seem to object to the use of female pronouns referencing God in any theological conversation. There is a strange rigidness of thought here. I am surprised there aren’t more creationists. Well maybe there are.
What do you mean by “narrow and literal”? Faithful? Uncontrived? Defensible? LOL! Your comments are again not making any interesting point, just expressing your arrogant attitude towards those you disagree with. Again, this is ironic in light of your earlier recommendations for open-mindedness.
 
Surely their is agreement that ‘He’ or more specifically ‘Our Father’ does not refer to a man in the sky? In Islam or Judaism, such thinking would send you out of the religion quicker than you could say Jehovah! Whilst such a belief may be less heretical given the person of Christ, it surely is still a false belief because he is viewed as fully man and fully God; male body but God’s soul, right? So God even in this belief is clearly no a man in any literal sense, agreed?
No, that is incorrect. We believe that Jesus had a human soul. He was one person, having two natures, united, but not mingled.
It has been put forward that Catholics use ‘He’ and ‘Our Father’ because Jesus did and for that matter every Pope, Bishop, Priest and Monk throughout Christian history. This is a compelling argument, surely?
It surely should be.
However as I have postulated, the Divine nature is possibly more feminine…
Sorry, I missed something maybe: where does this postulate come from?
 
veritas82:
Let me add that the soul is the form of the body, and just as Jesus’ body was male, so was his soul (the form of that body). It is an enormous presumption to assert that, were it not for the practical difficulties that would have been posed by his being a woman in the backwards patriarchal culture which he chose to become a part of, he could just as well have been a female.
 
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