HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[apophasis]

I wish you would stop beating a dead horse. No Catholic here has said that faith is insufficient to make us justified or righteous before God. Faith, apart from works, is sufficient to make us righteous, or become justified. Faith has primacy in salvation because it is the means by which receive the grace of God and the gift of righteousness and also the means by which we receive the grace and spiritual gifts necessary to fulfill our call, our obligation, to live in righteousness (i.e. keeping the commandments and doing works of charity), in order to remain righteous before God. Without faith, becoming righteous and remaining righteous are impossible. There is a difference between becoming and remaining. How did Gloria Vanderbilt become rich? She inherited the money, she did not earn it. How did she remain rich? Through careful management of her money and engaging in other business ventures. Others inherit wealth, but do not remain wealthy, squandering their inheritance like the prodigal son. Let us not squander the spiritual wealth God has freely given us, but - guided by His Grace, let us remain spiritually wealthy until the end.

God Bless,
Michael

The inheritance, Michael, is eternal life. Not justification. Justification is a divine declaration, the grounds being that the believer is now “in Christ,” made righteous.

 

[apophasis]

Greetings Apop…

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments. I appraciate your willingness to discuss these things.

First, i wish to appologize as I think my wording confused the matter a little. When I asked the ‘is it possible question’ What i am specificly refering to is the works of the old law that we are no longer bound to. These things include not eating types of meat. proper way to prepare bread. How temples are to be built. Basically, the lsit of do’s and donts found in Leviticus. It is that law that you and I both agree that we are no longer bound to. I do appologize if my wording confused you in thinking i was refering to both levitical and moral works.

With that in mind, you made the statement that we catholics like to diferintiate the two. This is because scripture diferentiates the two. As previously mentioned. Paul for the preceeding chapters in romans is extensivly talking about the old law, works of the old law, and how it relates to being a Jew. He continues after 4 talking about these things and how they relate to christ easily into chapter 10.

Since he is talking about works of the old law (like what clothing to wear in the temple, hwo the cloths should be made) for all the verses preceeding it, and more than half of romans after it, why would paul in this one verse change his tone from the old works, to all works, and then revert back to old works.

Romans 4:5 is basicaly a rewording of statemetns he makes later when he says if you submit yourself to the law, yu are bound by the law and christ’s sacrifice amounts to nothing and this is a very true statement. You cannot be a judahizer (sp) and be christian.

This is not an interpretation question so the statement you are intereting it wrong is not valid.

I reiterate, why would paul everywhere else in all surrounding verses be refering to the old law, and works of the old law, but only in romans 4:5 refere to all works.

I would also like to reiterate that Paul is NOT refering to the moral law like feeding the poor, and following the commandments. he is talking about the law that surrounding Judism.

I bring you back to this verse for a reason. I know you wish to point to other verses and say…“but look over here” However that is not really answering the question surrounding this verse.

Paul IS refering to works of the old law (levitcal works)
Paul is not refering to ALL works (Moral)

Saying that paul means all works is taking it out of context. In order to say he IS talking about all works, you have to ignore the countless versus before and after that are very clearly and easily shown talking about the old law and works of the old law…

Please… read these versus carefully… you also need to read the surrounding versus/chapters as well. Also, understand I am not arguing faith alone/faith + works… I am arguing that this verse cannot be used to support faith alone and nothing else. Thats is a differant subject all together than arguing if faith alone is scriptural…

can THIS verse be used to support it. If read in context, the answer is no…

Peace to you in christ

In Romans chapter one and two Paul addresses both the Gentiles and Jews, building his argument to where he concludes in chapter three: “…for we have already charged that BOTH Jews and Greeks are ALL under sin. There is NONE RIGHEOUS, not even one” (read 3:9-18).

He points out in 3:19 that the Law speaks to those who are UNDER the Law, i.e., the Jews (Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses). That they may be accountable to God - by that Law. But no flesh (vs. 20) could ever be justified by that Law (even the Decalogue) because, Paul says, “through the Law comes the KNOWDEGE of sin” (see Rom. 7:7ff). Through the Law one became painfully aware that he is not only born a sinner in Adam, but also, like Adam, a transgressor, he HAS transgressed divine commandments. But, he says in 3:21:Rom 3:21-24 "But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;Now in chaper four Paul cites two men: (1) Abraham who was born prior to the Law, therefore not under it. And (2) David who was born under the Law and bound to it. BOTH men are declared righteous by God through FAITH alone. Both Jews and Gentiles are reckoned righteous APART FROM WORKS. Righteousness comes FROM GOD "apart from works (Rom. 4:4-5) on the basis of faith in Christ alone.

Paul is VERY clear in his teachings on divine justification. You just refuse to believe him.

 

[heisenburg]

Good Morning to you Apop and may God Bless…

Regarding your comments on the verses in question, You seem to agree with me that romans is talking about the old law, which you and I both agree we are no longer bound to. I do not know if our understanding of the old law is differant, but as mentioned, there is a differance between the old levitcial law and the moral law.

Perhaps we must look more deeply at what is meant by leitical and moral from a jewish perspective, the perspective Paul would be looking at it… The Jewish culture was bound by the levitcial law… again, procedural types of works like eating ceartain types of meat, what to wear, who could preach the Torah. There are many other laws other than just this. If you want to know what these laws are… the easiest plays to look is Leviticus. If you want an in depth look at what this law is, review the Mitvot and the Talmud (sp). THe mitzvot specificly is 613 LAWS that the jewish people must follow. It is this law that we are no longer bound to. And I think you and I agree. Also, Paul is in the very verse you mentioned talking about these laws. He is saying that if you submit yourself to the law, you are obliged to it, if however, you are not under the law, there cannot be the sin of the law and thus, you can be righteuos. In other words, if the rules dont apply to you, it doesnt matter if you dont follow them. Again, he is talking about the levitcal law. Romans 3:21 is very specicly talking about these laws…

Now, there is another set of laws in jewish culture that NO ONE is released from, and Christ also said that we are not released from them when asked what msut i do to get into heaven.
This law is known as the noahtic law. This is what we are refering to when we say the Moral law. Included in it is the commandmets (though the commandments werent written down yet). Every man women child NOT under the jewish law IS under this law. Keep in mind, Paul was jewish, he would have know the desticntion.

I understand that you do not agree with me on my understanding of these versus. It is also not my place to make you understand, all i can do is put an understanding of the scripture before you. Paul is talking about the old law (levitical), and how it relates to christ. You seem to partially agree. We simply disagree on the implications on what that means. You seem to want to imply that it applys to everyhting and every work. I look at it and say, Paul is only talking about the levitcal law.

Ultamitly, the true question is this…

If i have faith, and do what christ tells us to do (as exampled by 3 chapters in matthew)… Are you going to say that I am condemend because I beleive christ demands action?

If i have faith, and NEVER do what is in the bible, not a single thing, are you going to say that you are saved because you beleived?

Which of these two makes more sense… Only believing, or believing AND taking action.

If I have faith, then I belive in the words of christ
if I believe in the words of christ, then i must do what he says
if i do not do what he says, then by my actions, I am showing i do not have faith.

Beleive, or dont believe, the choice is ultimatly yours…

May the peace of christ be with you always…

 

[mikeledes]

The inheritance, Michael, is eternal life. Not justification. Justification is a divine declaration, the grounds being that the believer is now “in Christ,” made righteous.

I never said the eternal inheritance is justification. Please read my posts carefully. What justification does is give us a birthright to eternal glory. But if we do not conform our lives to this gift of justification, this birthright will ultimately be rescinded (Please re-read my posts on John 15).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Very ironic that you use this phrase. Your “faith tradition” bases it’s entire existance on Sola fide. If this “man made tradition” that you profess to believe in were in any way biblical then it wouldn’t be so sad to watch.

 

[Philthy]

First of all you must understand that every true believer is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and is therefore “made alive” to the things of God (1 Cor. 2:11-13). He is made painfully aware of what drastic measures it took on God’s part to redeem him (the Incarnation and substitutionary sin-sacrifice of His own Son). Though they know that ALL their sins are forgiven, even buried with Christ, the redeemed know very well they are not to live (walk) in those very sins for which their Savior had to die.

Agreed, but lacking anything serious that someone can act upon.
apo:

Every day we must make moral choices based on who we are now “in Christ.” As redeemed men and women who are “in” the world (“cosmos,” i.e., this fallen world system) but no longer “of” it:

This is slightly confusing but largely irrelevant - we need to make choices and some of them have moral consequences.
apo:

And Paul exhorts the redeemed who are no longer “of” this “cosmos”:
It is the redeem’s calling in Christ:
And this “calling” has a divine purpose and destiny far beyond this “cosmos”:

A purpose and destiny far beyond this cosmos, agreed. But at the same time that calling is united to that destiny through us and is currently thereby united to it. Our actions have consequences in eternity.
apo:

So Phil, Paul’s question should still resonate in the hearts and minds of the redeemed: “How shall we who have died to sin (with Christ) still live in it?” (Rom. 6:2ff; cf. 1 Pet. 2:24).

The answer is obvious - we shouldnt live in sin.
apo:

This is all said in the context of spiritual gifts and the exercising of them within the Body of Christ. It’s not soteriological. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to the redeemed for the edification of the Body. “Faith” in this instance is not salvation faith, but the “gift” of faith, an extraordinary faith.

Interesting - salvation faith and the “gift” of faith are different. I didnt know that. It makes no sense to me either. Im not sure how you have arrived at the conclusion you have with any significant level of certainty. This section was preceded by a discussion regarding overconfidence in Chapter 10: Let us not test Christ as some of (our ancestors) did, and suffered death by serpents …and by the destroyer. These things happened as an example and…warning to us…Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1Cor 10:9-12 Is that context to be ignored?
apo:

All the spiritual gifts are given for the purpose of edifying the Church and not for the puffing up of one’s own ego. So if one is gifted “all faith,” that he could even move mountains, Paul is saying he is nothing unless it is exercised in love - i.e., for the purpose of edifying and benefiting fellow believers. The same principle would apply with the exercise of the gift of tongues, healing, or prophecy. The gifts are given to serve others in the Body, in love, not to boost one’s own ego. If that is the motive when exercised, then truly, he “is nothing.” And such motives will be revealed at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15). A judgment reserved only for believers.

Overall that was a very comprehensive and thoughtful response - thank you. I find it very esoteric, however, and not especially useful in the DAY TO DAY living we all experience. Perhaps my request for you to integrate it with “if you have not love you are nothing” led you on a tangent. While I think you did an excellent job of that, I dont find the claim that Paul is separating “salvation faith” and the spiritual “gift of faith” as two distinct entities. He talks about the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecy, healing, etc. repeatedly but never once mentions faith as a “spiritual gift”. While I do agree with your conclusion that the spiritual gifts are given for the edification of the body, for one to come to the conclusion that there is a spiritual gift of faith apart from “salvation faith” seems odd to me. This seems especially clear when he ends the section with, “So faith, hope and love remain but the greatest of these is love” That seems completely out of context with spiritual gifts. You know what its starting to sound like actually? It’s starting to sound like James Chapter 2.
Faith without works is dead - James 2
Faith without love is nothing - Paul 1Cor 10

Ahhh, what do I know? Again, thankyou for your response.

 

[mikeledes]

Like I states earlier, those who believe in salvation by faith alone and eternal security generally confuse justification (being made righteous) with glorification (actually inheriting eternal life in its fullest sense). The Biblical passages on salvation can generally be divided into two categories: those that apply to the period between one’s calling and justification and those that apply to the period between one’s justification and glorification.

Calling to Justification (Being Made Righteous, "In Christ."

In this stage of our salvation, works play absolutely no role, only grace by faith in Christ. The following Bible verses apply (There are plenty more, but i’ll just list the two most popular ones):

Romans 4:5

“But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.”

Ephesians 2:8

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourself; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

Justification to Glorification (Remaining Righteous)

In this stage of salvation, the* justified * are called to live in righteousness in order to conform their lives to the gift of justification. If they fail to fulfilll their call, they risk eternal damnation. What matters in this stage is faith working through love.

Galatians 5:6

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

1 Corinthians 7:19

“Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.”

Luke 10:15-28

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him (Jesus) saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life." He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” So he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind” and "your neighbor as yourself." And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE

John 15: 2, 6, 10

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away… If anyone does NOT ABIDE IN ME, he is CAST OUT as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and THROW THEM INTO THE FIRE, and they are burned… If you KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, you will ABIDE in my love (Compare with Romans 11:16-23).

1 John 3:24

"Now he who keeps the commandments abides in Him, and He in Him.

Romans 2:6-7

"Who will render to each one according to his deeds. Eternal Life to those who by *** patient continuance in doing good* seek for glory, honor, and immortality.**

Galatians 6:7-9

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever an man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to the flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit REAP EVERLASTING LIFE. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season WE SHALL REAP, IF we do not lose heart.

James 2:24

"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Revelation 20:13

"… And they were judged, each one according to his works (Comapre with Matthew 25:32-46).

There are more where these came from. The point is that once we are justified by grace through faith, what we do does make a difference on where we will spend eternity. God has made it clear that if we want to remain justified, we must fulfill the call to rigteousness by continually keeping the commandments and doing acts of love until the end.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

By the way Apophasis, you still have not explained how a “Branch” in Christ can be “taken away” or “cast away” and thrown into the fire. How can you cease being “in Christ” (i.e. "not abide in Me), if being “in Christ” is a guaranteed eternal state?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

heisenburg:

Regarding your comments on the verses in question, You seem to agree with me that romans is talking about the old law, which you and I both agree we are no longer bound to.

You and I were NEVER bound to the Mosaic Law. “The Law” was a covenant made with national Israel which began at Mt. Sinai and ended (as a rule of life) at the cross (Rom. 10:4). No Gentile was ever bound to that covenant; nor is any Jew bound to it now, who is born after Christ.

That covenant was to be only temporary, and that for the purpose of defining sin: “Thou shalt not…” It made sin utterly sinful, as Paul states in Rom. 7:13. Those under the Law were not only sinners in Adam, but through the Law also became transgressors of divine Commandments. That’s why the Law, ultimately, could only condemn, it could not impart life:Gal. 3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law (no definite article here - meaning the principle of law, or, commandment keeping)."Justification and eternal life are based on PROMISE. And that “promise” was given in Covenant form to Abraham over 400 years before Moses even existed. Paul explains it quite clearly in his letter to the Galatians:**Gal 3:6 **"Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Gal. 3:14 "…in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal. 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."And using the Jew as an example, he writes:Gal. 3:23-26 “But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our (Jews) tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (cf. Jn 1:13; 1 Jn. 3:1-2).Notice what is consistent with Paul’s teaching whether it be on salvation, justification or eternal life? “Through faith,” “through faith,” “through faith,” and this faith is in Christ ALONE. Because it is through His finished redemptive work that the promise has come.

 

[mikeledes]

You and I were NEVER bound to the Mosaic Law. “The Law” was a covenant made with national Israel which began at Mt. Sinai and ended (as a rule of life) at the cross (Rom. 10:4). No Gentile was ever bound to that covenant; nor is any Jew bound to it now, who is born after Christ.

That covenant was to be only temporary, and that for the purpose of defining sin: “Thou shalt not…” It made sin utterly sinful, as Paul states in Rom. 7:13. Those under the Law were not only sinners in Adam, but through the Law also became transgressors of divine Commandments. That’s why the Law, ultimately, could only condemn, it could not impart life:Gal. 3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law (no definite article here - meaning the principle of law, or, commandment keeping)."Justification and eternal life are based on PROMISE. And that “promise” was given in Covenant form to Abraham over 400 years before Moses even existed. Paul explains it quite clearly in his letter to the Galatians:**Gal 3:6 **"Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Gal. 3:14 "…in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal. 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."And using the Jew as an example, he writes:Gal. 3:23-26 “But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our (Jews) tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (cf. Jn 1:13; 1 Jn. 3:1-2).Notice what is consistent with Paul’s teaching whether it be on salvation, justification or eternal life? “Through faith,” “through faith,” “through faith,” and this faith is in Christ ALONE. Because it is through His finished redemptive work that the promise has come.

Faith must the one constant throughout our journey to glorification. We need faith in Christ alone in order to be justified, and we need faith working through love in order to be glorified. Works without faith our absolutely useless. Works pleasing to God can only be done “in Christ.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

]
Perhaps we must look more deeply at what is meant by leitical and moral from a jewish perspective, the perspective Paul would be looking at it…

Perhaps not, my friend. The Jew needs to look at the Law from God’s perspective, especially as taught by Paul in his Epistles. Even Christ rebuked the Jews regarding their distortion of the Law based on their “traditions.”

THe mitzvot specificly is 613 LAWS that the jewish people must follow. It is this law that we are no longer bound to.

They’re not 613 “Laws,” but 613 commandments found in “the Law.” Did you read Rom. 7:7ff as I asked you to? What does Paul call the commandment of coveting, found in the Decalogue?

Now, there is another set of laws in jewish culture that NO ONE is released from, and Christ also said that we are not released from them when asked what msut i do to get into heaven. This law is known as the noahtic law. This is what we are refering to when we say the Moral law. Included in it is the commandmets (though the commandments werent written down yet). Every man women child NOT under the jewish law IS under this law. Keep in mind, Paul was jewish, he would have know the desticntion.

There is no such thing in Scripture called “the Noahic law.” The “moral law” theologians refer to is the Decalogue: the Ten Commandments, the “ten words” found in the Mosaic Law which was given to Israel at Mt. Sinai.

And these Paul calls a “ministry of death” and “condemnation” engraved on stones (2 Cor. 3:6-9). Why? Because no one can keep them. EVERYONE violates them either in thought or deed. ALL of us (Jew and Gentile alike) are morally deficient, morally bankrupt before God, and nothing reveals this more than the Ten Commandments. They’re like the stop sign every driver eventually ignores. ALL humanity is in dire need of the divine redemption which is in Christ Jesus (again going back to Paul’s conclusion in Rom. 3:9-23 - please read it!!!).

Even if there was such a thing as “the Noahic Law,” what does Paul say?:For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."The conspicuous implication here being that NO LAW could, or ever will, get anyone into heaven, my friend. But instead:Rom 3:27-28 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”

Which of these two makes more sense… Only believing, or believing AND taking action.

Neither divine salvation or justification is ever based on your own “actions.” But your passive faith in the righteous “action” of Another FOR YOU - the Man Christ Jesus (see Rom. 5:12-21). And those who trust in Him, and Him alone, are “created” in Him, “FOR good works,” but never BY them (Eph. 2:8-10).

Beleive, or dont believe, the choice is ultimatly yours…

It’s who/what you believe in that ultimately matters. Your works or His. And, yes, the choice is yours. And that choice has eternal consequeces.

 

[mikeledes]

I would like to add a verse to my previous post on Justification to Glorification, which has not been answered, the follwoing:

1 Timothy 6:18-19

Let them do good, that they may be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share. Storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, THAT THEY MAY LAY HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

Faith must the one constant throughout our journey to glorification. We need faith in Christ alone in order to be justified, and we need faith working through love in order to be glorified.

You’ve changed the “gospel” from God’s love toward you, to now depend on your love toward God.

Works without faith our absolutely useless.

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness APART from works” (Rom. 4:4-5)

Works pleasing to God can only be done “in Christ.”

Yes, but it is only those who trust in Christ alone who are created “in Him” FOR good works. But they were not created in Christ Jesus BY those works (Eph. 2:8-10). And they WILL be glorified because they are now God’s workmanship created “in Christ Jesus.” Future glorification comes with the new creation. And this new creation does not come with a message stamped on it, “some ‘loving’ assembly needed.” We are “His workmanship,” not our own.

 

[heisenburg]

As mentioned in romans 3: Apart from works… Paul has been talking about the old law and works of the old law.

Same set up… Paul is talking about the old law and works of the old law. but i understand that you will not see it that way.

Noahtic law is part of the oral tradition of the JEWISH faith. This comes from a RABBI friend of mine. Research it… i may have my spelling wrong… but in essense it is the law as it stood under Noah…

Are you also going to tell me you are an expert on jewish culture as well?

With respect to romans 7:7… I commented on it… it says that if the law does not apply to you, then how can you be charged under it.

You insist i am confusing the matter… I am reading ALL of romans, and in context and Paul is in no unceartain terms talking about the old law and works of the old law…

You also seem to in one post want to chunk moral law in with levitical law as exampled by this quote
“No. Are you saying there were no moral Commandments under the Law? What do you call “thou shall not murder, steal, covet, commit adultery,” etc. The Decalogue is an integral part of the Mosaic Law and its Commandments are called “the Law” (Rom. 7:7). Salvation/justification is not based on how well, or if, you keep Commandments, but in whom you put your faith.”

other places deny that there is a levitical law

“That covenant was to be only temporary, and that for the purpose of defining sin: “Thou shalt not…” It made sin utterly sinful, as Paul states in Rom. 7:13. Those under the Law were not only sinners in Adam, but through the Law also became transgressors of divine Commandments. That’s why the Law, ultimately, could only condemn, it could not impart life:”

other places you say we are free from all law by saying romans 4:5 and such say we are free from all law…

I do not mean to be harsh, and please forgive me if it is, but which is it…

Are you trying to say that we are free of all aspects of the law? this includes the Ten Commandments…

I know you do not want to say this, and i know you will want to comment. Point is, if they are differant… then we are still obliged to follow the moral law and Works of the moral law. Otherwise, your ONLY other option is to say that all aspects of the law, moral and levitcial, no longer apply.

If you are going to say this, then you are espousing a false doctrine that goes agains the words of christ himself.

“What must I do to get into heaven?”
“Keep the commandments”

At this point, i see that any valid counter piont is either ignored or flatly refused. I have explained each of your versus in context and how they relate to Paul, Christ, and the time they were said. At this piont, it is up to you and God. If you are truely open to following truth, you have to consider what any of us say. catholic protestant, etc. I looked at your versus, and found your interpretation not fitting in with the over all context. I will pray for both of us. That if your words are true, that god will help me. But you need to do the same… Dont let pride blind you if… IF… i am saying what is true.

by the way… romans 3:9 … you left out a key part to that… just before that, Paul makes the following statement … “Scripture Says…”

So, if you realy want to read it in context… you also have to go back and see what is that scripture… You will see that this statement was directed at a very select group of people… Not everyone…

Are you also going to imply Paul was changing the meaning of a verse so that it contradicts soemthing else in scripture…

Arent there plenty of people in the NT aloe that are Righteous?

Read what I have said. at this point, i leave it up to God…

May you be blessed in christ…

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Dear sibling in Christ,

I was baptized a Catholic as an infant, but I am returning to Catholicism from Evangelicalism, So I certainly know what you’re going through.

Romans 4 does not teach sola fide, but certainly fide. What do I mean?

Basically, St. Paul is telling us that we are saved by grace, **through **faith. However whenever St. Paul talks about “works” he is actually referring not to good works, but rather the **Oberservance of the Law of Moses. **

The Law that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai is good. Why? Because it acts like a schoolteacher, as it **intructs **us about what is right and wrong. Furthermore it leads us to the realization that we are sinners and need salvation.

Yet observance to the Law of Moses, in itself, cannot save. In fact the Law actually curses us, in the sense that, since we are sinners, we become slaves to Legalism in trying to redeem ourselves by following the Law of Moses.

Christ however has liberated us from the Law of Moses by being born under that same Law (Galatians 4:4).

Also, when St. Paul says we are not saved by good-works, he means that we cannot merit our initial justification by faith and baptism. (Eph. 2:8–9, Rom. 9:16) Yet when we are justified by the sacrament of Baptism and our faith in Christ, we are put in a Grace filled relationship with God and our subsequent deeds of righteousness, work together in harmony with our faith and the sanctifying Grace of God to save us. James 2:21-24.

St. Paul says that God “will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness” (Rom. 2:6–8).

St. James shows us the meaning of this:

[14] What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
[15] If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
[16] and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
[17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
[18] But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Pray on this check out this links:

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

 

[mikeledes]

You’ve changed the “gospel” from God’s love toward you, to now depend on your love toward God.“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness APART from works” (Rom. 4:4-5)Yes, but it is only those who trust in Christ alone who are created “in Him” FOR good works. But they were not created in Christ Jesus BY those works (Eph. 2:8-10). And they WILL be glorified because they are now God’s workmanship created “in Christ Jesus.” Future glorification comes with the new creation. And this new creation does not come with a message stamped on it, “some ‘loving’ assembly needed.” We are “His workmanship,” not our own.

Where have I said that our becoming righteous has anything to do with works. Faith is sufficient. Salvation is - and always will be - God’s initiative. But we have to respond to that initiative throughout our lives. So it is about God loving us and we reciprocating that love by living a life of love. No one says that we were created in Jesus by our works. We are created to do good works. That means that God has given us the call to do good works which must be fulfilled. If we fail to fullfill this call after we have been justified, then there is a problem. God created us in Christ to be fruitful. But a “branch” in Christ is not fruitful, fulfilling his call, then he will be cut off and thrown into the fire (eternal damnation).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Yet if you look at Catholic soteriology as a whole, the act of baptism saves you; an act of a particular sin (mortal) un-saves you; and the act of a particular sacrament then saves you again.

So let me ask you, what does the “faith” of a Catholic rest in? What is the content of the Catholic faith that saves apart from works as Paul teaches in Romans four and Ephesians two?

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.

This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.

Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul’s teaching on “works” referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for “good works” - a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace).

Eph. 2:11-16 - this section further explains Paul’s reference to “works” which relates to following the Jewish legal ordinances.

Taken from scripturecatholic.com

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

According to your definition, then, “grace” is a divine “power” bestowed on you to “turn to Christ” and to continue to work out your salvation. But the Apostle Paul emphatically states, when writing to the believers in Ephesus, that “BY GRACE you have been saved THROUGH faith…” (Eph. 2:8). He doesn’t say, “by the “power” of grace,” your are “being saved,” but rather by “BY GRACE” itself you “have been saved,” and this “through faith.”

]

*“have been” *saved: Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8

*“are being saved”: *1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12
*
“will be saved”: *Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15

Your avowels about faith are NOT Biblical. You are just like how I used to be: A Calvisnist who defies the Scriptures.

May God have mercy on **me **for slandering his Chruch with Protestant lies!

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Hi,
So where then does that leave all the sacrements required by the CC?

The sacraments are NOT works, but rather palpable mediums through which God gives us grace.

Take Baptism for example, it is not merely symbolic, but It REALLY does impart grace (see Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22).

Go to this link and do some research:

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html